Idle No More -Where is the Leadership?

[Goober]

Due to their lack of leadership this is what Canadians think- Not all. But it is a road where violence can occur.

Canadians' attitudes hardening on aboriginal issues: new poll - The Globe and Mail

 

[captain morgan]

Your opinion- If the IDNM leadership steps up and day after day reports on what their movement is about. That they condemn any blockades after a certain point in time. That they want meaningful discussion and solutions do you think the Canadian Public will hear that.
Atleo stated, solutions will take time but a plan and funding is needed.

Goobs - my thoughts, based on what I've read and heard on the radio is that the originators of the movement are being treated in a secondary fashion by the media... I have come to understand that the official position of Idle No More is that they do not endorse the actions (incl violence) that has been delivered by some select groups. That said, if they came out tomorrow and denounced all these things, I don't think that the media would really cover it properly and more importantly, those people that are acting-out (for lack of a better phrase) would pay heed to the directive(s).

A lot of this is the media's fault and the weird timing of Chief Spence's hunger strike... Quite frankly, Spence took the lime light for a long time during which the media forced the association between Idle No More and her cause... things just morphed from there.

Absolutely no different than the whole OWS movement. It very quickly became a very disjointed, chaotic mess where no one really knew what it was all about. I see the same thing happening here and for the same reason. These movements purport to represent a very large group that is simply not that cohesive. There is far too much distance in pockets of what they want, what their priorities are, how they feel they should go about getting what they want/need. Add to that the more militant factions that come out, it's a recipe for disaster.

Again, it's unfortunate. There really is so much that could get resolved if people could just stick to one topic, one agenda at a time. As it is though, it seems like one gets lost in another.

Extremely well said

Due to their lack of leadership this is what Canadians think- Not all. But it is a road where violence can occur.

Canadians' attitudes hardening on aboriginal issues: new poll - The Globe and Mail

I'll wager that this is a direct result of the gen public not having a real understanding of the issues

 

[Goober]

Goobs - my thoughts, based on what I've read and heard on the radio is that the originators of the movement are being treated in a secondary fashion by the media... I have come to understand that the official position of Idle No More is that they do not endorse the actions (incl violence) that has been delivered by some select groups. That said, if they came out tomorrow and denounced all these things, I don't think that the media would really cover it properly and more importantly, those people that are acting-out (for lack of a better phrase) would pay heed to the directive(s).

A lot of this is the media's fault and the weird timing of Chief Spence's hunger strike... Quite frankly, Spence took the lime light for a long time during which the media forced the association between Idle No More and her cause... things just morphed from there.



Extremely well said




I'll wager that this is a direct result of the gen public not having a real understanding of the issues

And you are a well informed person. Reason they -IDNM - has to step up is we have many Canadians that are poorly informed.

This - the blockades - can if extended for a lengthy period lead to blood shed. The pressure by uniformed Canadians will be immense.

And Yes FN can shut many rail lines- highways down. Same with electricity towers -blow a few towers and what happens.There are always radicals that follow their own agenda.
A FFn mess is the result.

Time for those that support IDNM's principles to pressure the Founders.

 

[SLM]

I'll wager that this is a direct result of the gen public not having a real understanding of the issues

I believe that to be the case too.

 

[captain morgan]

And you are a well informed person. Reason they -IDNM - has to step up is we have many Canadians that are poorly informed.

This - the blockades - can if extended for a lengthy period lead to blood shed. The pressure by uniformed Canadians will be immense.

And Yes FN can shut many rail lines- highways down. Same with electricity towers -blow a few towers and what happens.There are always radicals that follow their own agenda.
A FFn mess is the result.

Time for those that support IDNM's principles to pressure the Founders.

I feel badly for the founders, I believe that there message is being used for political leverage and nothing more... The program of informing people and educating the public will fade away... Too bad/

Hopefully, there won't be any significant confrontations. I could see the gvt waging economic war in response via withholding money to the FNs... That would punish a lot of innocent people in the process.

 

[Cliffy]

The lack of understanding of the issues and the lack of respect for aboriginals in general, is a result of a carefully engineered campaign by the media.

 

[SLM]

And you are a well informed person. Reason they -IDNM - has to step up is we have many Canadians that are poorly informed.

This - the blockades - can if extended for a lengthy period lead to blood shed. The pressure by uniformed Canadians will be immense.

And Yes FN can shut many rail lines- highways down. Same with electricity towers -blow a few towers and what happens.There are always radicals that follow their own agenda.
A FFn mess is the result.

Time for those that support IDNM's principles to pressure the Founders.

I think in a lot of ways you were bang on with your thread title. Because it is about leadership. But the leadership has to recognize that it's behind the eight ball as far as information goes. The media and even the government always presents First Nations as one cohesive group, it's not. But that's the public perception. The general public sees the AFN on the news and assumes they are the de facto representatives of all First Nations people, which was a great idea in theory but in practice it's fallen short. There are a great many in the FN community that the AFN doesn't speak for. But the average Canadian really doesn't know this. So when they see a separate movement, even a peaceful one like INM started out to be, it looks like dissent in the ranks, you know? Then when the AFN looks like they are getting behind the movement, it looks like capitulation to dissenters. Bring out the real troublemakers who tamper with equipment or deface public monuments and it just looks worse and worse. It makes no difference what it's actually about, why each group is really doing what they're dong and whether they are in agreement.

Perception is everything. Any group, any leader that wants to really make a difference has to start there.

 

[Goober]

I think in a lot of ways you were bang on with your thread title. Because it is about leadership. But the leadership has to recognize that it's behind the eight ball as far as information goes. The media and even the government always presents First Nations as one cohesive group, it's not. But that's the public perception. The general public sees the AFN on the news and assumes they are the de facto representatives of all First Nations people, which was a great idea in theory but in practice it's fallen short. There are a great many in the FN community that the AFN doesn't speak for. But the average Canadian really doesn't know this. So when they see a separate movement, even a peaceful one like INM started out to be, it looks like dissent in the ranks, you know? Then when the AFN looks like they are getting behind the movement, it looks like capitulation to dissenters. Bring out the real troublemakers who tamper with equipment or deface public monuments and it just looks worse and worse. It makes no difference what it's actually about, why each group is really doing what they're dong and whether they are in agreement.

Perception is everything. Any group, any leader that wants to really make a difference has to start there.

The IDNM leadership has stated at a very low level that this is not about the Chiefs etc. Number 1 problem - they along with the Govt are part and parcel of the problems. If you mention corruption people try to slam you as racists.
Stand up and take the lead- They can get their message out but they have to set standards- set what they represent and what they do not represent.

And yes it could be messy - but if they do not want to lose their movement they had best stand up - speak with their fellow FN Peoples - and take the lead.


Stop FFN around with we do not agree, or we do not want this from the Chiefs, FN blockades etc. Get up - get moving and yes take the agenda and make it what it was meant to be.
If they do not then they are clearly did not take into consideration in what the repercussions would be.

Spence hijacked it and they stood aside.The radicals hijacked it and they stood aside.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Due to their lack of leadership this is what Canadians think- Not all. But it is a road where violence can occur.

Canadians' attitudes hardening on aboriginal issues: new poll - The Globe and Mail

It's a tough nut...that's for sure. Most are only vaguely aware of the issues. Many
hear the blocked roads & rail crossings & border crossings (or threats there of) &
blocked bridges, etc....& the Manitoba Chief threatening to shut down the Canadian
economy if he doesn't get whatever he's demanding this time....& Chief Spence with
he threat of dieting herself to death if she doesn't get her whatever it's claimed she
wants from week to week, etc...

Many, like myself I'm assuming, don't deal with threats well. Give me an "or else" and
I'll tell you generally to go stuff it in your hat (but maybe not in those exact words).

Society has rules and laws that we all are suppose to follow. These are to be enforced
by our legal system (without bias based upon gender or race or sexual orientation or
ethnic background or economic standing, etc...).

If Freddy Flintstone & the Water Buffalo's, or a bunch of disgruntled farmers, or whatever,
decide that they're going to blockade the Trans Canada Highway at some spot....they're
going to be removed (& most likely charged with something or another).

Then we (the general population working away day to day to pay our taxes and improve
our own lots in life) hear in the media of railway crossings being blocked for a week at a
time....& the police (RCMP, whatever...) do nothing but monitor, regardless of the rule of
law or the direct order of the courts, and my attitude on Aboriginal issues doesn't change,
but my attitude on the selective enforcement of the law by those empowered (and
collecting a tax payer funded paycheque) to uphold and enforce the law...that sours
further.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...p-for-not-trying-to-stop-native-rail-blockade

I heard on the radio earlier today while doing a parts run, a 2-3 minute long statement by
some limp-**** "Daniel Something-or-another" for the OPP waffling away about this exact
thing, say'n in advance that the OPP will do exactly zip, only monitor blockades, maybe
investigate after the fact, and that the First Nations can shut down the Canadian Economy
(which we ALL are a part of)....and they'll just monitor, etc...

http://metronews.ca/news/canada/511099/opp-defends-hands-off-approach-to-idle-no-more-protests/

The it comes on the news that some OPP officer at one of these road blockades, instead
of moving protesters & their drums off the roadway (or to the side, whatever), joins into
the blockade in uniform to block traffic while beating a drum as traffic packs up behind
this? Really? What the Hell?

In all honesty, that truly pisses me off....& no, my tax dollars provincially do not pay for
the OPP, but it's just another example of the legal double standard in enforcement, and
that just seems so wrong. All follow the law, or none follow the law. Don't enforce it for
some and not others or it doesn't work.

That's where my attitude hardens. Same with the freak show of Occupy last year. Same
with Tamils blocking bridges in Toronto the year before for whatever it was that they
wanted (don't remember, don't care to).

I don't care if it's disgruntled farmers, or Tamil Tigers, or First Nations, or Unions, or
whatever....protest outside of traffic, don't break the law, and don't threaten the general
population outside of whatever click or group you belong to & then expect support and
sympathy from those you threaten, as that is just so far beyond stupid to even be palatable.

That is exactly where I'm at on this issue. I've tuned out this whole First Nations
infighting and protesting once the threats came out, but and more than annoyed with
the legal system and its selective enforcement one road or crossings or bridges or
borders, etc...are blocked.

 

[taxslave]

For the past week I have been doing a demo project in an active industrial plant and had lunch with their crew. There was a fair amount of hostility towards natives in general and Spence in particular. Also most of their comments have no basis in reality . Some of them figure it is time to play cowboys and indians again. Trying to explain treaty obligations to them is much like talking to a dumb stump. Scary part is that they are by no means an isolated group.

 

[Trex]

Give me the Links where she is speaking on behalf of IDNM.
Many are speaking and claim they are speaking in the name or the purpose of IDNM. And it is BS.
Reason why the Founders have to step up.
As to the Media - they go with whatever excites -

I usually dont track down links for people who are to lazy to look for themselves but here:

Direct quote Pam Palmater"I have been honoured by the request of the Idle No More Founders to be one of their organizers and spokespersons." to CTV

Quote Globe and Mail: "However, when we’re talking about tackling issues as diverse as treaties, indigenous rights and “water, housing, sanitation, education” as Idle No More founder Pam Palmater put it in a must-see discussion on the whole movement, we risk being drowned in details." Article by Chelse Vowel

Your apology for being in error is graciously accepted.
Note G&M calls her a "founder" and not even a co-founder.

 

[Goober]

It's a tough nut...that's for sure. Most are only vaguely aware of the issues. Many
hear the blocked roads & rail crossings & border crossings (or threats there of) &
blocked bridges, etc....& the Manitoba Chief threatening to shut down the Canadian
economy if he doesn't get whatever he's demanding this time....& Chief Spence with
he threat of dieting herself to death if she doesn't get her whatever it's claimed she
wants from week to week, etc...

Many, like myself I'm assuming, don't deal with threats well. Give me an "or else" and
I'll tell you generally to go stuff it in your hat (but maybe not in those exact words).

Society has rules and laws that we all are suppose to follow. These are to be enforced
by our legal system (without bias based upon gender or race or sexual orientation or
ethnic background or economic standing, etc...).

If Freddy Flintstone & the Water Buffalo's, or a bunch of disgruntled farmers, or whatever,
decide that they're going to blockade the Trans Canada Highway at some spot....they're
going to be removed (& most likely charged with something or another).

Then we (the general population working away day to day to pay our taxes and improve
our own lots in live) hear in the media of railway crossings being blocked for a week at a
time....& the police (RCMP, whatever...) do nothing but monitor, regardless of the rule of
law or the direct order of the courts, and my attitude on Aboriginal issues doesn't change,
but my attitude on the selective enforcement of the law by those empowered (and collecting
a tax payer funded paycheque) to uphold and enforce the law...that sours further.

I heard on the radio earlier today while doing a parts run, a 2-3 minute long statement by some
limp-**** "Daniel Something-or-another" for the OPP waffling away about this exact thing, say'n
in advance that the OPP will do exactly zip, only monitor blockades, maybe investigate after the
fact, and that the First Nations can shut down the Canadian Economy (which we ALL are a part
of)....and they'll just monitor, etc...

The it comes on the news that some OPP officer at one of these road blockades, instead of moving
protesters & their drums off the roadway (or to the side, whatever), joins into the blockade in uniform
to block traffic while beating a drum as traffic packs up behind this? Really? What the Hell?

In all honesty, that truly pisses me off....& no, my tax dollars provincially do not pay for the OPP, but
it's just another example of the legal double standard in enforcement, and that just seems so wrong.
All follow the law, or none follow the law. Don't enforce it for some and not others or it doesn't work.
That's where my attitude hardens. Same with the freak show of Occupy last year. Same with Tamils
blocking bridges in Toronto the year before for whatever it was that they wanted (don't remember,
don't care to).

I don't care if it's disgruntled farmers, or Tamil Tigers, or First Nations, or Unions, or whatever....protest
outside of traffic, don't break the law, and don't threaten the general population outside of whatever
click or group you belong to & then expect support and sympathy from those you threaten, as that is
just so far beyond stupid to even be palatable.

That is exactly where I'm at on this issue. I've tuned out this whole First Nations infighting and protesting
once the threats came out, but and more than annoyed with the legal system and its selective enforcement
one road or crossings or bridges or borders, etc...are blocked.

Great post- and that is why IDNM has to stand up and piss some groups off. They have to control the agenda, the middle ground, the respect that each must have, what is needed. And the Govt then should if they have an ounce of ffn brains advertise that very message.

Take the heat for what is wrong with both sides. What needs to be done. Otherwise we will soon have a situation that will be uncontrollable. And that means violence.

 

[damngrumpy]

Someone said everyone wants a piece of the action when it comes to our resources.
To hell with everyone the needs of Canadians must come first on the list. It must also
be environmentally sound. No not perfect just reasoned and a thoughtful approach.
These people are a movement not a political party. That means as a movement real
change will only come by cooperation and consensus not through some official papered
dogma. The scrapyards of history are littered with movements that either let it develop
into anarchy or tried to soon to define the transition from radical movement to a more
permanent lasting entity.
Yes those who began it must consider who should take it to the next level and those
persons will ultimately decide the direction in consensus with those who are the marching
feet.
And here I thought Idle No More meant they were all going to find full time jobs,
guess I missed the meaning of intent.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Great post- and that is why IDNM has to stand up and piss some groups off. They have to control the agenda, the middle ground, the respect that each must have, what is needed. And the Govt then should if they have an ounce of ffn brains advertise that very message.

Take the heat for what is wrong with both sides. What needs to be done. Otherwise we will soon have a situation that will be uncontrollable. And that means violence.

Huh....yeah. Sure. How 'bout within the boundaries of the law though, without threats.
IDNM or any other group can garner attention to whatever their cause is without breaking
the law or threatening society as a whole...or they've failed not long after they've started.

Once the threats of violence or 'shutting down the economy' or whatever come out, the
movement has already lost credibility and it's a dead issue. Done deal. Police do their jobs &
step up to the plate if they wish to continue collecting their gov't paycheques & pensions &
bennifits....& enforce the law that they're paid to do.

From: Idle No More: OPP defends hands-off approach ahead of planned blockades - thestar.com

In a taped message posted on YouTube Tuesday, OPP Commissioner Chris Lewis said First
Nations groups could “paralyze” Canada by “shutting down travel and trade routes,” but that
it’s not the OPP’s job to solve disputes between First Nations communities and government.

Really? How 'bout when rail crossings are blockaded, & a Judge issues the papers to light the
fires under the bums of law enforcement who should'a already done their jobs...& they still don't
do their jobs? What this movement has shown, if not much else, is that some housecleaning needs
to be done with the OPP, & and other police department that behaves in the same manner.

If the law is enforced for some and not others....that will lead to an uncontrollable situation, and that
will lead to all kinds of ugliness (including violence). We are all equal in the eyes of the law, or we
aren't. That's the choice that isn't a choice for the legal system & specificly law enforcement that I'm
seeing.

 

[Goober]

Huh....yeah. Sure. How 'bout within the boundaries of the law though, without threats.
IDNM or any other group can garner attention to whatever their cause is without breaking
the law or threatening society as a whole...or they've failed not long after they've started.

Once the threats of violence or 'shutting down the economy' or whatever come out, the
movement has already lost credibility and it's a dead issue. Done deal. Police do their jobs &
step up to the plate if they wish to continue collecting their gov't paycheques & pensions &
bennifits....& enforce the law that they're paid to do.

From: Idle No More: OPP defends hands-off approach ahead of planned blockades - thestar.com

In a taped message posted on YouTube Tuesday, OPP Commissioner Chris Lewis said First
Nations groups could “paralyze” Canada by “shutting down travel and trade routes,” but that
it’s not the OPP’s job to solve disputes between First Nations communities and government.

Really? How 'bout when rail crossings are blockaded, & a Judge issues the papers to light the
fires under the bums of law enforcement who should'a already done their jobs...& they still don't
do their jobs? What this movement has shown, if not much else, is that some housecleaning needs
to be done with the OPP, & and other police department that behaves in the same manner.

If the law is enforced for some and not others....that will lead to an uncontrollable situation, and that
will lead to all kinds of ugliness (including violence). We are all equal in the eyes of the law, or we
aren't. That's the choice that isn't a choice for the legal system & specificly law enforcement that I'm
seeing.

And that is why they have to step forwards- otherwise this can spiral out of control. To sit and do nothing is not acceptable. Step up and set the boundaries, the purpose, what is needed.
Otherwise if it does spiral into violence they must accept part of the blame.

Now I am off to bed.

 

[Ron in Regina]

And that is why they have to step forwards- otherwise this can spiral out of control. To sit and do nothing is not acceptable. Step up and set the boundaries, the purpose, what is needed.
Otherwise if it does spiral into violence they must accept part of the blame.

Now I am off to bed.

I hope the "they" you refer to are the law enforcement employees, 'cuz if so, I totally
agree with you that they need to step forward & do their jobs, or step aside.

There are protests & marches out here on the flatland too, & so far they are peaceful,
& that's great! Gather attention to their cause, ect...without threats & illegal blockades.
Maybe it has to do with the core group being close at hand in this IDNM thing.

The rest of this thing (or much of it anyway) has just lost so much credibility that it's
a wash at best, and a step back-wards in many cases. Once public property is defaced,
or private property is damaged, it's done. The credibility is lost, and that's that.

 

[darkbeaver]

Gee thanks beave
BTW its whose

Just be careful I'll be lurking for yore next missteak.

 

[PoliticalNick]

Idle No More is a big joke! Do they not see the blatant irony in it? If they hadn't been idle for so damn long already they wouldn't be in poverty. So I say they shouldn't be idle no more, they should put down their beer, get of the couch and go find a job instead of demanding hand-outs from the rest of us for another 400 years.

Those kinds of highly disruptive protests, Ontario Provincial Police Commissioner Chris Lewis warned in a YouTube video released Tuesday, highlight the reality that First Nations demonstrators “have the ability to paralyze” this country by shutting down travel and trade routes

And we have the ability to paralyze them with tazers & rubber bullets and even some real bullets if they think they can pull this bull****.

 

[Cliffy]

Idle No More is a big joke! Do they not see the blatant irony in it? If they hadn't been idle for so damn long already they wouldn't be in poverty. So I say they shouldn't be idle no more, they should put down their beer, get of the couch and go find a job instead of demanding hand-outs from the rest of us for another 400 years.


And we have the ability to paralyze them with tazers & rubber bullets and even some real bullets if they think they can pull this bull****.

Yup, as your avatar suggests, you are a troll.

 

[Trex]

The leadeship is:
Dr.Pam Palmater PhD, LLB. Department head of Centre for Indigenous Governance.
Activist and politician.
Runner up to Shaun Atleo for Grand Chief.
One of the founders of and spokesperson for INM.
And she knows exactly what she is doing regarding Idle.
Bring down Shaun Atleo and forment revolution and discord in Canada.

Just posted National Post
Just like I said.

Quote"The APTN report said an assembly source pointed to Onion Lake Cree Nation Chief Wallace Fox as one of the leaders fighting the 2012 election results, which saw Mi’kmaq lawyer and activist Pam Palmater place a distant second. In an interview with the National Post, Mr. Fox categorically denied that he is behind a push to unseat Mr. Atleo, although he did not rule out supporting an ouster should council members call for such a move at a meeting next week. He also released a statement earlier this month saying his nation “has not given the AFN any mandate to speak for Treaty Peoples.”

Ms. Palmater, who told the Hill Times she partnered with Mr. Fox to stage a protest on Parliament Hill last December, has likewise questioned the validity of the assembly, using her Twitter account to criticize last week’s meeting with the Prime Minister and assuring her followers not to “worry that AFN has no [national chief] right now,” even though no such power vaccuum exists.