FP: Northern Gateway hearings in Alberta cancelled after failing to draw participants

[Cabbagesandking]

Cabinet has final say. As investors what do you think they will do?

A government has a duty to be prudent that far exceeds that of any investor before investing the people's money. This is the very antithesis of prudence. It is political and a gift to that element of the business community and the fossil fuel industry to whom Harper is indebted for his position and perks.

It is a quid pro quo and an example of gross negligence that is unsurpassed in Canadian history.

 

[Kakato]

In my experience the great time waster is the proponent. The environmental impact analysis they have done is blatantly inadequate and the suits spend hours justifying the work they did which was inadequate because the working orders that they started out with were inadequate. And the sad thing is that unless both proponents and experts are total morons, they realize it from the start.

Some kind of game they like to play with our money, our environment, and their bank accounts. Informal hearings where people who want to make a presentation probably take 1/4 the time and have more value for understanding the social environment. Formal interventions critiquing proponents material, presenting alternative evidence, cross examining the suits, would take very little time if it weren't for proponents games.



Show us where it is in the plan stan, or are you just blowing it out as usual.

Shipping bitumen through arctic waters isn't going to float either.

Why not? How do you think they get their fuel supply up in the arctic?

Is it only Alberta crude thats bad or what?
They commonly ship diesel untill the barges freeze in where ever they are at around september.

 

[petros]

Platinum. Molybdenite. IOCG.

Uranium or platinum? I'm getting old and need glasses.I'm more familiar with gold,silver and coal.

Nope and nope.

Hint: Hydrothermal deposition.

 

[Kakato]

Nope and nope.

Hint: Hydrothermal deposition.

Tungsten? VMS deposits?

 

[petros]

A government has a duty to be prudent that far exceeds that of any investor before investing the people's money. This is the very antithesis of prudence. It is political and a gift to that element of the business community and the fossil fuel industry to whom Harper is indebted for his position and perks.

It is a quid pro quo and an example of gross negligence that is unsurpassed in Canadian history.

The Govt has a duty to make money to pay for roid removal from your sorry ass that you'd scream bloody murder over if you had to pay for yourself.

 

[beaker]

Quote: Originally Posted by beaker
In my experience the great time waster is the proponent. The environmental impact analysis they have done is blatantly inadequate and the suits spend hours justifying the work they did which was inadequate because the working orders that they started out with were inadequate. And the sad thing is that unless both proponents and experts are total morons, they realize it from the start.

Some kind of game they like to play with our money, our environment, and their bank accounts. Informal hearings where people who want to make a presentation probably take 1/4 the time and have more value for understanding the social environment. Formal interventions critiquing proponents material, presenting alternative evidence, cross examining the suits, would take very little time if it weren't for proponents games.

Petros, Show us where "it is in the plan stan", or are you just blowing it out as usual.

Shipping bitumen through arctic waters isn't going to float either."

Why not? How do you think they get their fuel supply up in the arctic?

Is it only Alberta crude thats bad or what?
They commonly ship diesel untill the barges freeze in where ever they are at around september.

I expect that most goes by road and ice road, and that anything going by barge is small potatoes and less troublesome, compared to what is proposed to be sent by this particular pipeline. Tar sands production is what we are discussing in this thread, which is a long way from fuel oil.

 

[Kakato]

Quote: Originally Posted by beaker
In my experience the great time waster is the proponent. The environmental impact analysis they have done is blatantly inadequate and the suits spend hours justifying the work they did which was inadequate because the working orders that they started out with were inadequate. And the sad thing is that unless both proponents and experts are total morons, they realize it from the start.

Some kind of game they like to play with our money, our environment, and their bank accounts. Informal hearings where people who want to make a presentation probably take 1/4 the time and have more value for understanding the social environment. Formal interventions critiquing proponents material, presenting alternative evidence, cross examining the suits, would take very little time if it weren't for proponents games.

Petros, Show us where "it is in the plan stan", or are you just blowing it out as usual.

Shipping bitumen through arctic waters isn't going to float either."



I expect that most goes by road and ice road, and that anything going by barge is small potatoes and less troublesome, compared to what is proposed to be sent by this particular pipeline. Tar sands production is what we are discussing in this thread, which is a long way from fuel oil.

I worked on Nunavuts longest road,allmost 100 kilometers.They dont make ice roads to most communities so it comes by barge.Bitumen,diesel,it's all bad stuff to spill so it's pertinent to the topic.
If they can ship diesel and other hazardous goods safely I don't know why they cant ship bitumen the same way.

 

[beaker]

I worked on Nunavuts longest road,allmost 100 kilometers.They dont make ice roads to most communities so it comes by barge.Bitumen,diesel,it's all bad stuff to spill so it's pertinent to the topic.

So do they barge on rivers? Still, the quantity needed to keep the lights going in those communities that can't get their fuel supplies by truck is going to be small, compared to a spill that would occur from a pipeline, or shipping, like this non-option.

 

[petros]

So do they barge on rivers? Still, the quantity needed to keep the lights going in those communities that can't get their fuel supplies by truck is going to be small, compared to a spill that would occur from a pipeline, or shipping, like this non-option.

Barges are small? Why would a leak amount to more than a barg full? Are rivers special compared to polar bear habitat? What would make a bitumen spill worse than diesel? Would you feel cool about it if Coca Cola built it?

 

[Kakato]

So do they barge on rivers? Still, the quantity needed to keep the lights going in those communities that can't get their fuel supplies by truck is going to be small, compared to a spill that would occur from a pipeline, or shipping, like the non-option.

The road stops in Churchill in the east and theres no roads to any of the communities north of it near the top of hudsons bay,it's all barge and plane and there are lots of mines and camps that also need fuel and lots of it because the window to ship by air or sea or river is very short.Fuel barges run non stop when they can and i'm pretty sure the newer ocean going tankers are a lot safer then most barges.

You need allmost 1500 barrels of diesel to keep a 50 man camp,2 core drills and 2 choppers going from march to september,plus 100 hercs with 22,000 liter fuel bladders.

These barrels are jet fuel.

 

[taxslave]

Manitobans aren't stupid. They have oodles of cheap electricty for sale to the biggest industries and some Bakken bucks to play with.

Why haven't we heard a peep from the MB NDP?

Take a wild guess.

Real NDP

Must be a universe of difference between your NDP and the BC variety.

 

[beaker]

The road stops in Churchill in the east and theres no roads to any of the communities north of it near the top of hudsons bay,it's all barge and plane and there are lots of mines and camps that also need fuel and lots of it because the window to ship by air or sea or river is very short.Fuel barges run non stop when they can and i'm pretty sure the newer ocean going tankers are a lot safer then most barges.

I wouldn't doubt it for a minute, but who is to say that only the newest and best ships will always be used. As cost cutting and complacency and human error, corrosion, shifting water levels, and ice occurred an eastern route would be at least as dangerous, spills would happen, and to a more susceptible environment.

 

[taxslave]

A government has a duty to be prudent that far exceeds that of any investor before investing the people's money.



And that is why the pipeline will be built wether by Enbridge or someone else. It is in the Nation's best interest, just like the railways. What a few non contributors think is not important.

 

[Kakato]

I wouldn't doubt it for a minute, but who is to say that only the newest and best ships will always be used. As cost cutting and complacency and human error, corrosion, shifting water levels, and ice occurred an eastern route would be at least as dangerous, spills would happen, and to a more susceptible environment.

I'm just saying they have been shipping hazardous goods for years in the arctic so why would bitumen be any different?
Even Buffalo Joe and his aging fleet of relics can haul fuel without a spill.

Might get those icebreakers we were promised also.

 

[Cabbagesandking]

The Govt has a duty to make money to pay for roid removal from your sorry ass that you'd scream bloody murder over if you had to pay for yourself.

That is an awesome riposte, petros. I am absolutely devastated and I think I will need to go away again for a week or two before I dare show myself here again.

You have so embarrassed me.

Now what about that fiscal responsibility?

 

[taxslave]

So do they barge on rivers? Still, the quantity needed to keep the lights going in those communities that can't get their fuel supplies by truck is going to be small, compared to a spill that would occur from a pipeline, or shipping, like this non-option.

One of my neighbours is a skipper on the Mackenzie. From what he tells me it is a lot more dangerous than running up and down the west coast. The potential for spills is high with river barges and cleanup is not easy.

Now what about that fiscal responsibility?

That is what we have been talking about. It would be irresponsible not to build these pipelines to get resources to markets to produce both government revenue and good paying jobs in rural areas. Same with mines. Letting saleable minerals sit in the ground while there is a demand and we have both an unemployment and debt issues is fiscally irresponsible.

 

[petros]

Must be a universe of difference between your NDP and the BC variety.

If possible more than a universe.

 

[taxslave]

If possible more than a universe.

From the little I know of your NDP I could see possibly voting for them myself.

 

[petros]

That is an awesome riposte, petros. Now what about that fiscal responsibility?

You have a responsibility to pay your debts. That takes money. Money from resources or taxes which may mean you'd have to co-share roid removal costs so the debts can be paid if we weren't selling resources.

From the little I know of your NDP I could see possibly voting for them myself.

NDP turned SK around which put the SK Party in the position of having to follow the course laid out. I call the SK Party NDC(on) centerists. It works.

 

[beaker]

I'm just saying they have been shipping hazardous goods for years in the arctic so why would bitumen be any different?
Even Buffalo Joe and his aging fleet of relics can haul fuel without a spill.

Might get those icebreakers we were promised also.

That was quite a stockpile of barrels you showed. But a proposal like Northern Gateway, or an equivalent, would ship 525,000 barrels PER DAY. One day of -40 temperatures with blowing snow and a wind chill of -70 and the scope of the spill would make a barges contents look like spit in a river. The scale of a four million barrel tanker sunk by a busting Greenland glacier would make one of those barge spills look the same way.