Does it matter what the CEO of a charity is paid?

dumpthemonarchy

House Member
Jan 18, 2005
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Vancouver
www.cynicsunlimited.com
Yes, the charity biz has gone totally corporate. Forget about tax breaks for these clowns and treat them like a regular corporation that they are. Salaries into six figures makes this true. They are stealing from taxpayers right now with a lower tax rate. End charities for all environmental, educational, and religions orgs too. It's all about money in and money out. Time to simplify the tax code.


Does it matter what the CEO of a charity is paid? | MoneySense



Does it matter what the CEO of a charity is paid?

By Sarah Efron | Online only, 15/09/11


How much does the CEO at your favourite charity make? This year, for the first time, we included that information in our table. As you scan through the list, you’ll notice that many executives in the charitable sector make quite a lot. Salaries in the $250,000 to $300,000 a year range are common. The average top paycheque is $210,000.

We debated including this information because we know that some donors will find the salaries too high. When we showed the amounts to Carl Harvey, a retired accountant in Peterborough, Ont., who gives to more than 20 charities a year, he found the sums appalling. “Some guy in a corner office with a suit that I can’t afford is making hundreds of thousands of dollars,” he says. “The only defence they have is ‘Well, we need to pay to get quality people.’ Come on, people would work for a lot less than that.”

Still, keep in mind that many of the charities on our list are large, complex organizations. For example, World Vision, one of the largest charities on our list, had $374 million in revenue in 2009. Many are carrying out complicated missions such as delivering programs in developing countries or supporting sophisticated medical research. Paying an experienced CEO a six-figure salary to make such an organization as effective as possible can be a good investment.

Don McCreesh, chair of Imagine Canada, an organization that supports the non-profit sector in Canada, argues that staff at charities shouldn’t be treated like volunteers. “In the charitable sector, you get what you pay for, just like in the corporate sector,” he says. “If you want to have efficient, effective organizations, you need to have top people.”

While we didn’t use the salaries as a factor in our ratings, we did feel that it was relevant information to provide to donors. By publishing all the salaries together, along with other measures showing how well the charity is meeting various standards, we believe we’ve provided some context. It’s up to you to decide whether a given charity’s top salary is out of whack with other charities in its sector. Either way, even McCreesh believes that salary information should be public. “In the charitable sector, we need to be straight up about what the salaries are and why. We need to have a discussion about what the salaries should be,” he says.

We asked all 100 charities to disclose what their CEOs made in 2009. Only 18 charities did so (each received one bonus point in the Governance and Transparency category). For those that didn’t, we used amounts from tax filings or from the Ontario government public sector salary disclosure list. The amounts given as a range are from the Canada Revenue Agency. Those amounts represent the salary of the highest-paid individual at the charity, who is not necessarily the CEO.
 

skookumchuck

Council Member
Jan 19, 2012
2,467
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Van Isle
The Sally Ann and the local food bank is the ONLY place i give other than Cancer society, MS, Children's hospital, etc which are not the same thing. Anything that goes offshore is not an option.
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
9,949
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kelowna bc
To start with, those who are engaged in charity management, are the same people
who would other wise be in the corporate sector. If you want people to earn more
for the charity you have to pay the going rate. It is the same for any business. The
accounting firm doesn't charge me a farmer less for services than say a private
businessman in the auto business. The amount might be different depending on how
much work there is but the rate charged per hour is the same.
People have to understand we are living in a different world these days, people charge
the going rate. The Heart Fund, Cancer Society and other groups like this are in
charge of millions of dollars just like the factory making widgets and just because they
work for a charity, doesn't mean they should make less.
There are all kinds of people out there who believe these people should make much less
for doing the same management work. They are the same people who think they should
be able to pay school kids six dollars an hour, or they should be able to pay women less
than men. Work of equal value should be paid at the same rate. Besides I would rather
the company boss be driving a BMW or Lexus and not a 1980 beater. It demonstrates
he is making money for the company. Get a grip.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
I think if a guy works full time (40 hours a week) as C.E.O. (and only paid member of a charity) he probably deserves $50,000 a year. You can't expect people to donate all their time for nothing. Anyone who receives more than that.................simple...............don't donate to the "charity" (cash trough).

To start with, those who are engaged in charity management, are the same people
who would other wise be in the corporate sector. If you want people to earn more
for the charity you have to pay the going rate. It is the same for any business. The
accounting firm doesn't charge me a farmer less for services than say a private
businessman in the auto business. The amount might be different depending on how
much work there is but the rate charged per hour is the same.
People have to understand we are living in a different world these days, people charge
the going rate. The Heart Fund, Cancer Society and other groups like this are in
charge of millions of dollars just like the factory making widgets and just because they
work for a charity, doesn't mean they should make less.
There are all kinds of people out there who believe these people should make much less
for doing the same management work. They are the same people who think they should
be able to pay school kids six dollars an hour, or they should be able to pay women less
than men. Work of equal value should be paid at the same rate. Besides I would rather
the company boss be driving a BMW or Lexus and not a 1980 beater. It demonstrates
he is making money for the company. Get a grip.

You raise some good points DG (but don't get too carried away) Greed is running rampant and we do have to put a choker on it. Ford's rates now are $114 an hour- which means we have to earn a similar amount to afford them, if it was only Ford it wouldn't matter but it's the doctor, the dentist, the eye doctor, the dog groomer, the manicurist...............it just never bloody ends!
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
I think if a guy works full time (40 hours a week) as C.E.O. (and only paid member of a charity) he probably deserves $50,000 a year. You can't expect people to donate all their time for nothing. Anyone who receives more than that.................simple...............don't donate to the "charity" (cash trough).


Really, I won't work for 50k a year, why should someone that has the education and knowledge to run a large charity work for that?



You raise some good points DG (but don't get too carried away) Greed is running rampant and we do have to put a choker on it. Ford's rates now are $114 an hour- which means we have to earn a similar amount to afford them, if it was only Ford it wouldn't matter but it's the doctor, the dentist, the eye doctor, the dog groomer, the manicurist...............it just never bloody ends!


and what do you think is a "fair" hourly rate for a business to charge?
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
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In my years with the IRS I saw a lot of corruption among "charitable" groups with these corporate officers getting truckloads of money that went tax free. This problem should have been dealt with years ago but many of these elites control politicians and judges. This is why the problem will never be solved.
 

LiesOfTheIntell

Time Out
Feb 19, 2012
66
0
6
London, Ontario
It's a good scam, expecially those "charities" in a sector which I'll call teh "pill for a symptom" industry. We have our typical, traditional view of "Saqlly Anne" type charities, dominated by working class wages, beliefs. But there is another type of charity, one the "pill-sell" charity.

The intelligentsia would have you believe that running a multi-million dollar charity is rocket science. It isn't. I've met over 2 dozen of these executives, some got their position through nepotism, some were well connected politically, most of them were significantly overweight, and none that I met were blindingly intelligent or gifted. Only a few were hard working, everyone of them had a great smile, and a nice personality. But no, the vast majority of them didn't get the job on their credentials. They were well placed and well connected, and that's how they got their job.

And no, I won't support any charity which supports the 1%.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
Really, I won't work for 50k a year, why should someone that has the education and knowledge to run a large charity work for that?






and what do you think is a "fair" hourly rate for a business to charge?

That's hard to say Gerry, depends on a lot of different factors, probably no one right answer. My barber charges $12 and he can probably do three heads an hour, so there is a starting figure. Now if you are operating a D8 Cat, that's going to run more than barber clippers.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
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That's hard to say Gerry, depends on a lot of different factors, probably no one right answer. My barber charges $12 and he can probably do three heads an hour, so there is a starting figure. Now if you are operating a D8 Cat, that's going to run more than barber clippers.


You specifically mentioned your local Ford dealer. As far as I'm concerned, $114/hour is fairly reasonable considering their overhead.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
You specifically mentioned your local Ford dealer. As far as I'm concerned, $114/hour is fairly reasonable considering their overhead.

You could be right, but when you add another 12% H.S.T. it's getting a little out of reach for most people, but then on the other hand if their product is good enough that you don't have to go for many repairs, it might work.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
You could be right, but when you add another 12% H.S.T. it's getting a little out of reach for most people, but then on the other hand if their product is good enough that you don't have to go for many repairs, it might work.


the 12% is taxes, that has nothing to do with Ford. You are whining about the hourly rate they charge. Back up your whine. What is reasonable and why?
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
the 12% is taxes, that has nothing to do with Ford. You are whining about the hourly rate they charge. Back up your whine. What is reasonable and why?

OK, you won't like this, the mechanic is probably worth $30, so I think $60 is reasonable.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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OK, you won't like this, the mechanic is probably worth $30, so I think $60 is reasonable.


30 an hour eh....ok...we'll go with that...now, how about the service writer, the cost of the hoists, the building, the parts stock that they have to maintain, property taxes, corporate taxes, profit, and that is just skimming the top of the barrel.


Let's look at that $30 an hour you so generously gave the mechanic. You do realize that he/she needs to upgrade his/her skills every year tio keep up with changes in the different model auto's. right? You do realize that most mechanics have, on average, over 30k worth of tools to do their job. right? So, $30 an hour fair?
 

dumpthemonarchy

House Member
Jan 18, 2005
4,235
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38
Vancouver
www.cynicsunlimited.com
It's a good scam, expecially those "charities" in a sector which I'll call teh "pill for a symptom" industry. We have our typical, traditional view of "Saqlly Anne" type charities, dominated by working class wages, beliefs. But there is another type of charity, one the "pill-sell" charity.

The intelligentsia would have you believe that running a multi-million dollar charity is rocket science. It isn't. I've met over 2 dozen of these executives, some got their position through nepotism, some were well connected politically, most of them were significantly overweight, and none that I met were blindingly intelligent or gifted. Only a few were hard working, everyone of them had a great smile, and a nice personality. But no, the vast majority of them didn't get the job on their credentials. They were well placed and well connected, and that's how they got their job.

And no, I won't support any charity which supports the 1%.

The day of "charity" is running a little thin. Govts are huge and provide social assistance now that charities never used to or could, and this is good. Why an organisation like the Fraser Institute can't just be a regular business seem like a joke. Because they have "ideas" they get special status. It no longer makes sense. Same for groups that "help people," they want a tax break too, they ought to do it on their own dime and time. These charities are a cancer on the body politic.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
30 an hour eh....ok...we'll go with that...now, how about the service writer, the cost of the hoists, the building, the parts stock that they have to maintain, property taxes, corporate taxes, profit, and that is just skimming the top of the barrel.


Let's look at that $30 an hour you so generously gave the mechanic. You do realize that he/she needs to upgrade his/her skills every year tio keep up with changes in the different model auto's. right? You do realize that most mechanics have, on average, over 30k worth of tools to do their job. right? So, $30 an hour fair?

You are losing me Gerry, first, does the mechanic at Ford use his own tools or the company's tools? When they upgrade their knowledge and skills, whose time is that on? You mention the parts they have to stock, OK one example I'll give you, a year or so ago, when I had my Vibe serviced it was discovered the filler cap off one of the reservoirs (maybe brake fluid) was missing. It was a plastic cap not unlike what you'd find on a vinegar bottle, G.M. charged me $42 for it, so parts are independent of service charges. The hoists, building etc. are spread over 30-50 years and there are possibly 6 mechanics' time being factored into those costs. B.T.W. $30 an hour = $60,000 a year, is that not a fair wage for a mechanic?
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
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Vancouver Island
Really, I won't work for 50k a year, why should someone that has the education and knowledge to run a large charity work for that?






and what do you think is a "fair" hourly rate for a business to charge?

Rule of thumb used to be 3 times the hourly rate of tradesmen. I don't think it has changed much. Even though the cost of diagnostic equipment has gone up significantly.

OK, you won't like this, the mechanic is probably worth $30, so I think $60 is reasonable.

That won't even cover the overhead.
With bennies and wcb it costs about $45 just for the mechanic.

You are losing me Gerry, first, does the mechanic at Ford use his own tools or the company's tools? When they upgrade their knowledge and skills, whose time is that on? You mention the parts they have to stock, OK one example I'll give you, a year or so ago, when I had my Vibe serviced it was discovered the filler cap off one of the reservoirs (maybe brake fluid) was missing. It was a plastic cap not unlike what you'd find on a vinegar bottle, G.M. charged me $42 for it, so parts are independent of service charges. The hoists, building etc. are spread over 30-50 years and there are possibly 6 mechanics' time being factored into those costs. B.T.W. $30 an hour = $60,000 a year, is that not a fair wage for a mechanic?

Nope. Thats why I run equipment and supervising projects instead of wrenching. I make more easier sitting in the seat.
Mechanics own their basic tools and Ger's estimate on cost is low unless you are buying $hit tools. I bet if you walked into the Snap On truck today and got all the tools a journeyman required it would run in excess of $6000. The tool box alone is over 5 with taxes.

I forgot an important one. Most auto mechanics are paid flat rate which means if does not matter how long it takes them to do a job the pay is the same. Comebacks are on their own time.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
Rule of thumb used to be 3 times the hourly rate of tradesmen. I don't think it has changed much. Even though the cost of diagnostic equipment has gone up significantly.



That won't even cover the overhead.
With bennies and wcb it costs about $45 just for the mechanic.



Nope. Thats why I run equipment and supervising projects instead of wrenching. I make more easier sitting in the seat.
Mechanics own their basic tools and Ger's estimate on cost is low unless you are buying $hit tools. I bet if you walked into the Snap On truck today and got all the tools a journeyman required it would run in excess of $6000. The tool box alone is over 5 with taxes.

I forgot an important one. Most auto mechanics are paid flat rate which means if does not matter how long it takes them to do a job the pay is the same. Comebacks are on their own time.

OK, you and Gerry are changing my mind a bit, but a lot of sh*t goes on that does bother me, not the least of which is paying $42 for a plastic cap. Even a dog obedience trainer wants $50 an hour- what is their equipment? A whistle, a stick and a ball? :lol:
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
9,949
21
38
kelowna bc
I'm with Gerry on this one 30 bucks an hour, most mechanics are worth more than that
when you have a thirty thousand dollar car that won't move. There are costs in any of
the businesses you see operating. Farming is the one that concerns me. I see people
complaining about the food prices. Understand the farmer gets nowhere near the price
the store mentions.
Here is one example apples got to Canadian Superstore. Macs 1.39/lb gala 1.39/lb
delicious 1.39/lb. What is the real profit margin here. apples are sold by the forty pound
box, and the size 100's for example is 100 apples per box. Where the money is made and
lets use extra fancy pricing here for argument sake.
macs top grade farmer .20cents
gala extra fancy to the farmer 25cents
delicious extra fancy to farmer 15cents.

yet all the apples on the shelf in those varieties sell for 1.39 and the farmers cost of production
is at least twenty five cents.
Who is making the money? The system is out of line.
Charities have fraud no question in some cases. Charities have expenses no question and when it
comes to people managing them they need people with experience and skills like any other business.
Don't measure the charity by the CEOs wages alone, determine how much benefit to the society is
generated. That is the measure. If all the money is going to wages then don't give.
If the wages are good and benefits are good and the community is also benefiting from the service
provided then that charity is doing a good job. Its providing value and not exploiting its work force.
This idea the everyone working for a charity should subsist just above poverty themselves in nonsense
put things into perspectives.