This summer may see first ice-free North Pole

[CDNBear]

Some of you folks should take the advice of some other members and mods and attack the message and not the messenger.

Ummm...

I never passed anything off as my own either that wasent mine,you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel to dirt me,what a loser.

Ya...

I never passed anything off as my own either that wasent mine,

Nope, this is your post...

He's right,the Mpemba effect.

Yet this effect has been attested since antiquity. Aristotle mentions it, as do two of the fathers of modern science, Francis Bacon and René Descartes in the 17th century. The effect is today named after a Tanzanian schoolboy, Erasto Mpemba, who was set the project of making ice cream from milk in the 1960s. The pupils were supposed to boil their milk, let it cool, then put it in the fridge to freeze. But Mpemba worried about losing his space in the freezer, and so put in the milk while it was still hot. It froze faster than the others.

The emphasized part is from a Guardian article.

You should back up your claims if your going to start assuming.

I already back up my claim that the above post of yours is from a Guardian article.

Sorry but I quote from experience,not google or wiki.

Uh huh, lol.

And another thread dirtied up by the resident Can Con troll.

Yes you have.

I guess you dont want to debate anything eh?

I'm trying, but you keep ignoring the questions and attack me.

Too funny!

Actually, your behavior's pathetic.

 

[Kakato]

Ice north of Hudsons bay is mainly freshwater,ask any arctic biologist about dead water,the purest around and it abounds in the arctic,I know this from being there.
Most including you probably has no clue what it is and im not going to tell you either,google it.
I will wait for your answer.

 

[JLM]

Ya right,want me to dig up all your instances of copyright infringement?

And in case you did not know,most arctic ice is fresh water,not saltwater.

And for a very good reason, a huge amount of the water in the Arctic flows right out of the MacKenzie River and of course that water will freeze before the salty portion. Fresh water freezes at 0C while salt water freezes at about minus 5C.

 

[Kakato]

And for a very good reason, a huge amount of the water in the Arctic flows right out of the MacKenzie River and of course that water will freeze before the salty portion. Fresh water freezes at 0C while salt water freezes at about minus 5C.

Ya,and all the water flowing into Hudsons bay comes mainly from the tundra north near the arctic circle,all fresh water.They tow icebergs to the states from the arctic for a reason.

I have never been to Greenland,farthest north was a few kliks from Devon island and south of Cambridge bay or north of Rankin inlet,you could drink the water off the tundra allmost anywhere.
It was that pure.

 

[CDNBear]

Ice north of Hudsons bay is mainly freshwater,ask any arctic biologist about dead water,the purest around and it abounds in the arctic,I know this from being there.

You do realize that it doesn't cover the whole Arctic Ocean right?

Most including you probably has no clue what it is and im not going to tell you either,google it.

Stop attacking the messenger.

I will wait for your answer.

I'm still waiting for you to post some examples of me plagiarizing. How's that coming?

 

[Kakato]

You do realize that it doesn't cover the whole Arctic Ocean right?

Stop attacking the messenger.

I'm still waiting for you to post some examples of me plagiarizing. How's that coming?

Your not worth responding to aside from this response if your just stalking tonight.
Have a good one!

I'm here to discuss things,not play your immature little mind games.

 

[CDNBear]

Your not worth responding to aside from this response if your just stalking tonight.
Have a good one!

So you don't want to discuss the issue, you just want to troll and attack the messenger.

Why don't you just say so, instead of posting all sorts of false claims to the contrary?

I'm here to discuss things...

Obviously not.

 

[Kakato]

So you don't want to discuss the issue, you just want to troll and attack the messenger.

Why don't you just say so, instead of posting all sorts of false claims to the contrary?

Obviously not.

Go troll somewhere else.
Let us adults discuss things.
You keep dirtying up any thread I post in,everyone can see that,grow up young man.
kids......no respect these days!(RD)

 

[CDNBear]

Go troll somewhere else.
Let us adults discuss things.
You keep dirtieng up any thread I post in,everyone can see that,grow up young man.
kids......no respect these days!(RD)

You're attacking the poster, not the post again...

If there was any truth to your post, these questions would have been answered, and the discussion moved forward.

You do realize that it doesn't cover the whole Arctic Ocean right?

What does that have to do with the Arctic Ocean?

What do the great lakes have to do with the Arctic Ocean?

You were correct though, everyone can see, who the troll really is.

 

[gerryh]

for kakato's edification.

What is the difference between sea ice and icebergs, glaciers, and lake ice?

The most basic difference is that sea ice forms from salty ocean water, whereas icebergs, glaciers, and lake ice form from fresh water or snow. Sea ice grows, forms, and melts strictly in the ocean. Glaciers are considered land ice, and icebergs are chunks of ice that break off of glaciers and fall into the ocean. Lake ice is made from fresh water and freezes as a smooth layer, unlike sea ice, which develops into various forms and shapes because of the constant turbulence of ocean water.
The process by which sea ice forms is also different from that of lake or river ice. Fresh water is unlike most substances because it becomes less dense as it nears the freezing point. This difference in density explains why ice cubes float in a glass of water. Very cold, low-density fresh water stays at the surface of lakes and rivers, forming an ice layer on the top.
In contrast to fresh water, the salt in ocean water causes the density of the water to increase as it nears the freezing point, and very cold ocean water tends to sink. As a result, sea ice forms slowly, compared to freshwater ice, because salt water sinks away from the cold surface before it cools enough to freeze. Furthermore, other factors cause the formation of sea ice to be a slow process. The freezing temperature of salt water is lower than fresh water; ocean temperatures must reach -1.8 degrees Celsius (28.8 degrees Fahrenheit) to freeze. Because oceans are so deep, it takes longer to reach the freezing point, and generally, the top 100 to 150 meters (300 to 450 feet) of water must be cooled to the freezing temperature for ice to form.

Can you drink melted sea ice?

New ice is usually very salty because it contains concentrated droplets called brine that are trapped in pockets between the ice crystals, and so it would not make good drinking water. As ice ages, the brine eventually drains through the ice, and by the time it becomes multiyear ice, nearly all of the brine is gone. Most multiyear ice is fresh enough that someone could drink its melted water. In fact, multiyear ice often supplies the fresh water needed for polar expeditions. See Salinity and Brine in the Characteristics section for more information.


All About Sea Ice, Introduction :: National Snow and Ice Data Center

 

[Kakato]

Ya,I dont do graphs,I prefer to see it with my own eyes.

And drink it and I have yet to find any saltwater in the Arctic I was at and I was way up there.

It's a big place dude.

 

[CDNBear]

For further reading and research for those that think they know it all...

Cooling the water down
Consider a fresh water body being cooled from above, for instance a lake at the end of summer experiencing subzero air temperatures. As the water cools the density increases so the surface water sinks, to be replaced by warmer water from below, which is in its turn cooled. This creates a pattern of convection through which the whole water body gradually cools. When the temperature reaches 4°C, the lake reaches its maximum density. Further cooling results in the colder water becoming less dense and staying at the surface. This thin cold layer can then be rapidly cooled down to the freezing point, and ice can form on the surface even though the temperature of the underlying water may still be close to 4°C. Thus a lake can experience ice formation while considerable heat still remains in the deeper parts.
This does not apply to sea water. The addition of salt to the water lowers the temperature of maximum density, and once the salinity exceeds 24.7 parts per thousand (most Arctic surface water is 30-35), the temperature of maximum density disappears. Cooling of the ocean surface by a cold atmosphere will therefore always make the surface water more dense and will continue to cause convection right down to the freezing point - which itself is depressed by the addition of salt to about -1.8°C for typical sea water. It may seem, then, that the whole water column in an ocean has to be cooled to the freezing point before freezing can begin at the surface, but in fact the Arctic Ocean is composed of layers of water with different properties, and at the base of the surface layer there is a big jump in density (known as a pycnocline), so convection only involves the surface layer down to that level (about 100-150 metres). Even so, it takes some time to cool a heated summer water mass down to the freezing point, and so new sea ice forms on a sea surface later in the autumn than does lake ice in similar climatic conditions.

How does Arctic sea ice form and decay - Wadhams

Ya,I dont do graphs,I prefer to see it with my own eyes.

Another excellent example of your inviability to actually discuss things, aside. Ya,because the graph was the only part of his post, that completely disproved your claims... :roll:

And drink it and I have yet to find any saltwater in the Arctic I was at.

Were you really there?

The facts prove your claims to be false.

 

[Walter]

K and CB, get a room.

 

[Kakato]

K and CB, get a room.

He/she should go to bed.
I will waste some more of his time though since he has floundered on lots of claims the last few days.

 

[Redmonton_Rebel]

You forgot the topic?

Just trying to keep it clear, which can be a full time task here with some of the more creative posters.

No it's not.

I forget what the point was and I'm too lazy at the moment to go all the way back so I'll just say "yes it is"

Much of the ice loss? I agree
Glaciers are picking up speed into the ocean. The ocean is warmer. Surface ice may be melting but not at the rate of old ice. The old ice is darker because of particulates that absorb energy but the water that result from surface melt is what is causing rapid loss of subsurface ice till it hits the ocean. After ice breaks off into the ocean, what do you think melts quicker? The surface ice or the subsurface ice? <a href="http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/07/01/508782/greenland-ice-sheet-melt-nearing-critical-tipping-point/?mobile=nc" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://thinkprogress.org/climate/20...elt-nearing-critical-tipping-point/?mobile=nc

Of course the ice breaks off and melts in the ocean, there's also some evidence of a feedback at the calving face when the cooler meltwater at the surface creates a return current of warmer ocean water lower down which is pulled into the glaciers base and speeds melting.

Outflow glaciers like Jakobshavn the largest on Greenland IIRC have doubled in speed inrecent decades. Jakobshavn puts over 40 billion tons of ice into the Atlantic a year, that's one glacier.

So? Like I said, I doubt ocean ice will disappear. Ocean ice doesn't just come from freezing air, you know. Do you think all that ice from places like Greenland's glaciers instantly turns into water as soon as it calves off?

Based on what?

The most dramatic wamring on the planet is happening at the poles, when the temperature reaches a certain point the ice will go, there's isn't going to be any process to stop it. There will be relatively thin sea ice formed in the winter months, but that will quickly melt in the summer. The Arctic Ocean is almost certainly going to lose its ice cover.

The ice from Greenland mostly drifts south(remember the Titanic?) where it quickly melts in the wamer water.

Only to the weak-minded. I said we did not cause the warming. That part of the cycle started long before we began messing with industry. What we are causing is an extension of the cycle.

I seriously doubt that, we've initiated a entirely new cycle of warming that has left the background cycle far behind. Just looking at the evidence from ice core research done by people like Lonnie Thompson and he's seeing evidence of warming that hasn't occured in hundreds of thousands of years. And it's entirely consistent with the principles behind forcing the climate into a wamer state by changing the radiative balance through the massive emission of GHGs. You seem to completely ignore the consequences of that, how do account for all the new energy present due to the scattering of outgoing longwave photons by human generated GHGs?

Good question. Not arguing.

It's a central question, we're greatly outpacing geological activity in emitting some of the very compounds that have played a key role in moderating the global enrgy balance for Eons. That doesn't happen without fundamental changes in the globl environment.

That's a part of evolution.

So is developing the intellectual tools to allow us to change in response to the natural world, why opt out on this one issue?

I'm getting closer to old age and death. Should I be all panicky about it? It's inevitable, so I expect it and leave it at that.

If you don't care then why debate it?

 

[CDNBear]

He/she should go to bed.
I will waste some more of his time though since he has floundered on lots of claims the last few days.

Further examples of you attacking the messenger and not the message, and admitting to to being a troll, aside.

You missed the facts in two posts now, that simply prove your claims to be false.

Maybe you could address that, instead of attacking the messengers.

ETA: It's not a waste of time btw. I rather enjoy disproving the claims you make.

 

[lone wolf]

Ya,and all the water flowing into Hudsons bay comes mainly from the tundra north near the arctic circle,all fresh water.They tow icebergs to the states from the arctic for a reason.

Mainly from the tundra????

List of Hudson Bay rivers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's only downhill on the map (assuming you {generic, BTW} hang North up)

Ya,I dont do graphs,I prefer to see it with my own eyes.

And drink it and I have yet to find any saltwater in the Arctic I was at and I was way up there.

It's a big place dude.

Were you as far north as the (salty) Arctic Ocean?

 

[CDNBear]

Were you as far north as the (salty) Arctic Ocean?

Is there an unsalted version somewhere inland that a simple tourist would be more familiar with?

 

[Kakato]

So whens the -80 going to stop in the arctic?

Soon?
I dont really want to go back untill it warms up.

This is January in the arctic.

This is July.

This is november.

This is october.

Your building an inch of ice a day in those temperatures.

 

[CDNBear]

So whens the -80 going to stop in the arctic?

Soon?

I dont really want to go back untill it warms up.

This is January in the arctic.

This is July.

This is november.

^ This has nothing to do with the fact that your claims were proven wrong.