This summer may see first ice-free North Pole

[gerryh]

I was asking for clarification. You stated that the warmer water results in later freezing as warmer water doesn't freeze as quickly as cold water.

Oh ya...and BTW..... Hot water freezes quicker than cold water.

 

[JLM]

Oh ya...and BTW..... Hot water freezes quicker than cold water.

Yeah, right! :lol::lol:

 

[Kakato]

Dark and light are not the determinant you think, kakato. For example, the night temperature increase, globally, is greater than daytime. Something that "sceptics" are loath to discuss.

The Arctic is warming at twice the rate of lower latitudes and it is foolish to try to claim that this is not having a large effect on Arctic ice and conditions. Thickness of permanent ice has shrunk from about 2.6 metres in 2000 to barely two metres now. That is a rapid and extreme loss.

And. the melt season starts earlier since it is not solely governed by the Sun's presence but, in part be the higher temperature responding earlier too the Sun. It also ends later because the warmer water does not freeze so easily.

These are not debatable and it matters not where you look at it from. The only area that is not yet experiencing ice loss in significant quantity is an area off North Eastern Greenland.

Well I have never been to greenland but I have been to the arctic and it melts within one week in late june or early july,you forgot about the permafrost also which has a major effect on ice melting,something you have not even mentioned.60 kliks from the arctic circle all the snow melts off the tundra in about a week,this also melts the lake and sea ice.
This happens every year like clockwork,the ice starts freezing end of september,lack of sunlight has a lot to do with it.

Yeah, right! :lol::lol:

He's right,the Mpemba effect.

Yet this effect has been attested since antiquity. Aristotle mentions it, as do two of the fathers of modern science, Francis Bacon and René Descartes in the 17th century. The effect is today named after a Tanzanian schoolboy, Erasto Mpemba, who was set the project of making ice cream from milk in the 1960s. The pupils were supposed to boil their milk, let it cool, then put it in the fridge to freeze. But Mpemba worried about losing his space in the freezer, and so put in the milk while it was still hot. It froze faster than the others.

 

[JLM]

Well I have never been to greenland but I have been to the arctic and it melts within one week in late june or early july,you forgot about the permafrost also which has a major effect on ice melting,something you have not even mentioned.60 kliks from the arctic circle all the snow melts off the tundra in about a week,this also melts the lake and sea ice.
This happens every year like clockwork,the ice starts freezing end of september,lack of sunlight has a lot to do with it.


He's right,the Mpemba effect.

Yet this effect has been attested since antiquity. Aristotle mentions it, as do two of the fathers of modern science, Francis Bacon and René Descartes in the 17th century. The effect is today named after a Tanzanian schoolboy, Erasto Mpemba, who was set the project of making ice cream from milk in the 1960s. The pupils were supposed to boil their milk, let it cool, then put it in the fridge to freeze. But Mpemba worried about losing his space in the freezer, and so put in the milk while it was still hot. It froze faster than the others.

The hot water still has to pass through the temperature of the cold water before it freezes, which was my reasoning. :smile:

Oh ya...and BTW..... Hot water freezes quicker than cold water.

Looks like you are right Gerry. You learn something new every day! :smile:

 

[CDNBear]

Looks like you are right Gerry. You learn something new every day! :smile:

Was he?

How does the Mpemba effect work on saline water?

If it is the same, how does that error negate the message in the rest of Cabbage's post?

 

[Walter]

In the same way that your body weight can be stable, but over the course of your life it changed a great deal. Durp.

So it's not stable because it changes over time or it is stable because it changes over time.
sta·ble

adjective, sta·bler, sta·blest. 1. not likely to fall or give way, as a structure, support, foundation, etc.; firm; steady.

2. able to continue or last; firmly established; enduring or permanent: a stable government.

3. resistant to sudden change or deterioration: A stable economy is the aim of every government.

4. steadfast; not wavering or changeable, as in character or purpose; dependable.

 

[JLM]

Was he?

Apparently- at least in some circumstances.

 

[CDNBear]

Apparently- at least in some circumstances.

Ya, for fresh warm water.

Saline water is an entirely different matter. If one reads the synopsis of the Mpemba effect, it requires specific conditions, not readily found in nature.

 

[JLM]

Ya, for fresh warm water.

Saline water is an entirely different matter. If one reads the synopsis of the Mpemba effect, it requires specific conditions, not readily found in nature.

I didn't study it in depth, just enough to find out Gerry had a valid point and me (being an agreeable guy) like to give credit where it's possible. :lol:

 

[CDNBear]

I didn't study it in depth, just enough to find out Gerry had a valid point and me (being an agreeable guy) like to give credit where it's possible. :lol:

Oh he has a point, and it may apply in some way. But I highly doubt it applied to sea ice.

While I was researching the Mpemba effect, I came across something that I could have sworn I read before, and low and behold...

He's right,the Mpemba effect.

Yet this effect has been attested since antiquity. Aristotle mentions it, as do two of the fathers of modern science, Francis Bacon and René Descartes in the 17th century. The effect is today named after a Tanzanian schoolboy, Erasto Mpemba, who was set the project of making ice cream from milk in the 1960s. The pupils were supposed to boil their milk, let it cool, then put it in the fridge to freeze. But Mpemba worried about losing his space in the freezer, and so put in the milk while it was still hot. It froze faster than the others.

It's customary to post a link or accreditation when you quote other peoples work...

Why does hot water freeze faster? And other cracking science mysteries | Philip Ball | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

Passing off other peoples work as your own, is called plagiarism, and it's frowned on here at CC. It also puts the site at risk.

 

[Cabbagesandking]

The Permafrost is not sea ice, kakato. Although it, too, is melting much earlier and, if you do play around in it, you should stick to the truth. There is great concern about Northern transportation and building because of the melting permafrost.

A body of warm water does not freeze more quickly than cold water. You should try to separate refrigerator from the Arctic ocean.

 

[CDNBear]

The Permafrost is not sea ice, kakato. Although it, too, is melting much earlier and, if you do play around in it, you should stick to the truth. There is great concern about Northern transportation and building because of the melting permafrost.

A body of warm water does not freeze more quickly than cold water. You should try to separate refrigerator from the Arctic ocean.

Just to accentuate your point...

Arctic sea ice melt threatens permafrost - UPI.com

 

[taxslave]

Oh ya...and BTW..... Hot water freezes quicker than cold water.

Or so they taught us in science class anyway. But the truthers are rather selective about what "science" they choose to believe.

 

[JLM]

Or so they taught us in science class anyway. But the truthers are rather selective about what "science" they choose to believe.

I wonder if that would be due to looser molecular structure? Back when I was taking science I think they had just arrived at what water is!

 

[taxslave]

I wonder if that would be due to looser molecular structure? Back when I was taking science I think they had just arrived at what water is!

I don't recall. When you live on the coast freezing is barely a relevant topic anyway.

 

[Tonington]

Yet this effect has been attested since antiquity. Aristotle mentions it, as do two of the fathers of modern science, Francis Bacon and René Descartes in the 17th century. The effect is today named after a Tanzanian schoolboy, Erasto Mpemba, who was set the project of making ice cream from milk in the 1960s. The pupils were supposed to boil their milk, let it cool, then put it in the fridge to freeze. But Mpemba worried about losing his space in the freezer, and so put in the milk while it was still hot. It froze faster than the others.

Well, there's a huge difference between putting warm water in a unit with refridgeration and a set point than there is with warm water in the Arctic.

When you put warm water in the freezer it raises the temperature inside the freezer above the set point, and then the refridgeration kicks in to bring the temp down. With the unit running, warm water will cool faster than cold water.

If you put a cup of warm water and a cup of cold water in an ice bath, the cold water will freeze first. It's not a special property of water, it's a property of refridgeration units that allows warm water to freeze faster.

 

[captain morgan]

Or so they taught us in science class anyway. But the truthers are rather selective about what "science" they choose to believe.

Only recently have I really paid attention to the alarming rate which the ice cubes melt in my cocktails... I blame global warming for the event

 

[L Gilbert]

We're talking about the entire global climate being changed.

You forgot the topic?

That's inaccurate.

No it's not.

Much of the loss of ice in Greenland is due to surface melt creating freshwater lakes on the ice sheet surface which are then rapidly emptied to the sheet base by moulins where they lubricate the flow and accelerate the loss of ice through the outflow glaciers like Jakobshavn. The Zwally effect.

Much of the ice loss? I agree
Glaciers are picking up speed into the ocean. The ocean is warmer. Surface ice may be melting but not at the rate of old ice. The old ice is darker because of particulates that absorb energy but the water that result from surface melt is what is causing rapid loss of subsurface ice till it hits the ocean. After ice breaks off into the ocean, what do you think melts quicker? The surface ice or the subsurface ice? http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/07/01/508782/greenland-ice-sheet-melt-nearing-critical-tipping-point/?mobile=nc

The Arctic sea ice pack is floating on a body that can undergo rapid changes in temperature meaning it could break down very quickly.

So? Like I said, I doubt ocean ice will disappear. Ocean ice doesn't just come from freezing air, you know. Do you think all that ice from places like Greenland's glaciers instantly turns into water as soon as it calves off?

You say it's happening but it's not caused by us, that's still denial.

Only to the weak-minded. I said we did not cause the warming. That part of the cycle started long before we began messing with industry. What we are causing is an extension of the cycle.

How can we significantly alter the concentration of such an important GHG without also significantly altering the radiative balance of the planet.

Good question.

It's probably not a coincidence that as atmospheric levels of CO2 increase so do indications of a warmer global environment, like melting ice.

Not arguing.

Yes, but sometimes without many of the species that were present at the start of the rapid changes. Most of the major extinction events are associated with rapid changes in the atmosphere that rapidly drive the climate into a new state.

That's a part of evolution.

We're closely reproducing events that led to things like the Permian extinction, and you're not concerned?

I'm getting closer to old age and death. Should I be all panicky about it? It's inevitable, so I expect it and leave it at that.

Also inaccurate, I'm looking at key indicators like atmospheric concentrations of CO2 , if they keep going up it's still a serious issue.

never said it isn't a serious issue.

And the oceans are also undergoing significant changes that will affect the survival of plankton like ocean acidification.

So the critters will evolve or die off.

Ocean acidity has already increased by over 25% and is predicted to go as high as 100-150% by the end of the century.

And things evolve accordingly. So?

Given enough time, but what we're doing isn't taking that into account, it's classic bottom line thinking with no thought for tomorrow,

roflmao So now you know all of what I think?

many of the natural systems simply aren't being given the time to respond, if we allow them to remain in the first place.

That's the nature of change. What cannot adapt, doesn't survive.

There's also industrial mining, farming, fishing, energy extraction and more. The Gulf of Mexico is full of fine particulate oil after the BP fiasco alone, that doesn't promote ecological health at a time when climate change is stressing the natural systems.

Right. But it's extremely impossible and improbable that we can do much about it overnight.

what does this mean, you don't sound like you think the extensive impacts of humans on the globe are responsible for climate change.

I've been saying this all along and it's just finally entered your comprehension? You do understand the concept of cycles, right? This period in the constant cooling and warming cycles is not caused by humans. What is caused by humans is the change in the cycle.

In this situation the only sensible policy is to find ways to reduce CO2 emssions while increasing carbon sinks like forests.

Yeah, I say just cut back as much as we can on pollution and figure out how to develop or encourage existing counteractions. But even then, most times when humans try aggressive methods of changing things "for the better", it backfires or causes other changes that are not all that good..

The entire planet was, there was tropical conditions in the Arctic millions of year ago, with dinosaurs and later after their disappearance things like crocodiles. Ice at the poles in the summertime is a recent development in geological terms and one that will inevitably disappear as we force the globe into a warmer state. The ice isn't suddenly going to hit a magical wall past which further retreat is impossible.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/06/040611080100.htm

So we can stop the worst effects if we reduce the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere, people who claim it will cost too much are only looking at the immediate bottom line, not the eventual balancing out which will occure on the order of a few decades or more.

uhuh

I am, I think you've come part of the way, but don't want to face the full consequences of our actions.

Wrong. My POV is that we can't change history and I accept that. What we can do is change ourselves and accept that blaming does sweet dickall.

The topic stated that the Polar Ice was melting. One of the original claims of AGW that permanent melting of ice would raise sea levels.. enough to inundate Pacific Islands.. drown Manhattan.. redefine coastlines, in some cases by hundreds of miles, as sea level rose enough to inundate all areas at sea level.. NONE of it has happened. All coastline erosion can be explained by normal tidal and current processes.. so now they move on.. with other scare tactics. Nothing the AGW political establishments states can be trusted.. none of it has anything to do with science.

Flat out bullsh|t!

The climate on our planet was once stable with no ice at the poles.

Probably. Stability doesn't necessarily mean calm. Earth was a lot warmer a couple billion years ago. But even then, the first ice probably started forming about 2.7 billion years ago and lasted about a half billion years (The Huronian Ice Age).


These ain't your words;

Yet this effect has been attested since antiquity. Aristotle mentions it, as do two of the fathers of modern science, Francis Bacon and René Descartes in the 17th century. The effect is today named after a Tanzanian schoolboy, Erasto Mpemba, who was set the project of making ice cream from milk in the 1960s. The pupils were supposed to boil their milk, let it cool, then put it in the fridge to freeze. But Mpemba worried about losing his space in the freezer, and so put in the milk while it was still hot. It froze faster than the others.

They come from http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/28/why-does-hot-water-freeze-faster
quit stealing other people's work without permission and attributing it to them.

So it's not stable because it changes over time or it is stable because it changes over time.
sta·ble

adjective, sta·bler, sta·blest. 1. not likely to fall or give way, as a structure, support, foundation, etc.; firm; steady.

2. able to continue or last; firmly established; enduring or permanent: a stable government.

3. resistant to sudden change or deterioration: A stable economy is the aim of every government.

4. steadfast; not wavering or changeable, as in character or purpose; dependable.

Good. Now look up stable change.

 

[Tonington]

There is a prize available for anyone who can determine why it works in some cases and not in others:
Why does hot water freeze faster than cold water?

 

[L Gilbert]

Or so they taught us in science class anyway. But the truthers are rather selective about what "science" they choose to believe.

Some are. Just as some deniers are.

There is a prize available for anyone who can determine why it works in some cases and not in others:
Why does hot water freeze faster than cold water?

http://library.thinkquest.org/C008537/cool/freeze/freeze.html