Neither of the above 2 posts have anything to do with the original OP. They are off topic and by eao's own interpretation
of forum rules a direct breach.
They are also another example of eao's bigotry and racism.
Turkey seeks NATO meeting over downing of jet by Syria
- Thread starter Machjo
- Start date
Neither of the above 2 posts have anything to do with the original OP. They are off topic and by eao's own interpretation
of forum rules a direct breach.
They are also another example of eao's bigotry and racism.
I was attempting to show that the way NATO reacts to attacks against member nations is highly variable. The way NATO has reacted to Syria shooting a Turkish jet fighter is quite different than the way NATO reacted to the IDF attacking a clearly identified Turkish aid convoy. In this case, it appears some NATO members would like to portray Syria's actions as deliberately hostile against Turkey, when it appears Syria didn't even know the identity of the military aircraft allegedly in their airspace.
If that's off topic, then I apologize. I posted the information on topic.
If that's off topic, then I apologize. I posted the information on topic.
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The boarding of the ships was legal- It has been proven as such- next- there is a thread for that topic.
No, what you were doing is once again seizing on, what you saw as, an opportunity to bash Israel even though Israel had absolutely nothing to do with this incident.
Do you think Canada or the United States would tolerate an unauthorised
aircraft flying through our airspace? I believe the Turks have been monitoring
the situation in Syria, it has implications for them. There are so many and I
mean many confusing reports as to where this plan was.
It should be pointed out there is a civil war going on in Syria and it is none of
our business. The people against its government and I am beginning to believe
that no matter how difficult it is to watch self determination must be played out
by the participants involved, just like the American Civil War.
Look what happened in Egypt. They has a civil campaign they got rid of the
former dictatorship and now potentially they will be worse off with the Islamic
Brotherhood taking over. The ironic thing is, the Army the people clashed with
is likely going to be the only salvation they might have and that's because we
meddled when we should have let the young people clean out the entire rats nest.
aircraft flying through our airspace? I believe the Turks have been monitoring
the situation in Syria, it has implications for them. There are so many and I
mean many confusing reports as to where this plan was.
It should be pointed out there is a civil war going on in Syria and it is none of
our business. The people against its government and I am beginning to believe
that no matter how difficult it is to watch self determination must be played out
by the participants involved, just like the American Civil War.
Look what happened in Egypt. They has a civil campaign they got rid of the
former dictatorship and now potentially they will be worse off with the Islamic
Brotherhood taking over. The ironic thing is, the Army the people clashed with
is likely going to be the only salvation they might have and that's because we
meddled when we should have let the young people clean out the entire rats nest.
BTW, I never brought Israel into this discussion... CM did.
Does anyone here doubt that the way NATO reacted to Syria shooting down a Turkish fighter jet violating Syrian airspace would be quite different if Israel shot down a Turkish fighter jet violating Israeli airspace?
The way NATO reacted to the Mavi Marama incident backs up my point.
Does anyone here doubt that the way NATO reacted to Syria shooting down a Turkish fighter jet violating Syrian airspace would be quite different if Israel shot down a Turkish fighter jet violating Israeli airspace?
The way NATO reacted to the Mavi Marama incident backs up my point.
You were the first one caught- Never mind saying CM did it as well- He will read the post where you brought it in, why and - or why it should not have been. Now I am off topic
I most certainly did to make an initial point, but I never intended for that introduction to be kidnapped and employed as an excuse to bash Israel or any other nation.
You're getting as bad as Colpy at destroying EAO's terrorist propaganda pieces. Aren't you two afraid you will damage his self esteem?
Sure, as long as Syria also takes steps to examine how it happened and introduces reforms to ensure it not happen again. Can it assure us of that?
To shoot an unidentified aircraft is irresponsible at best: it could have been one of their own then for all they knew.
It may have been a mistake, but certainly Syria should take steps to ensure it not happen again. For one, don't shoot an aircraft down until it's identified as a threat.
Good question. As far as I know, Canada has allowed Russian aircraft to come right up to the border. Sure we monitor them and intercept them but don't attack them if they're in international airspace and don't take any aggressive action.
As for the US, I don't know (though I wouldn't be surprised if they have a protocol requiring them to attack only as a last resort too).
It's exactly the same concept. Before you can find a person guilty of murder, you must prove within reason taht he is indeed guilty. Likewise to accuse Syria of initiating an attack against a Turkish jet we must first prove the Turkish jet had not initiated the attack, was not violating Syrian airspace (though attacking without first identifying and warning does seem overly aggressive indeed), etc.
The aircraft was identified as a military jet. The decision to shoot it down or hope that its harmless has to be made in seconds. Consider how foolish the general in charge would look if the aircraft was hostile and they decided not to shoot it down.
Consider how foolish he is now-
Not sure but I do believe once it reached international airspace and having not attacked Syria it was illegal to shoot the plane down.
http://world.time.com/2012/06/24/nato-to-meet-on-syria-turkey-plane-downing/
(BRUSSELS, Belgium) — A spokeswoman says NATO’s governing body will meet Tuesday to discuss the Syrian downing of a Turkish plane.
Oana Lungescu says the North Atlantic Council will meet in Brussels to hear Turkey’s complaint. Turkish officials say the jet was on a training flight Friday when it strayed into Syrian airspace, but was in international airspace when it was shot down.
The consultations will focus on article 4 of NATO’s founding Washington Treaty.
Lungescu said Sunday that under the article, an ally can request consultations “whenever, in the opinion of any of them, their territorial integrity, political independence or security is threatened.”
The order to shoot down the unidentified jet fighter would be illegal if the unidentified jet fighter was in international airspace. But if the order was given while the unidentified jet fighter was in Syrian airspace, it would be legal even if by the time jet was shot down, it had crossed back into international airspace.
According to the Syrian version of events, the plane was hit in Syrian airspace and crashed in international waters.
Even the Turkish version of the events places their jet fighter one kilometer outside Syrian airspace. At the cruising speed of an F4, a kilometer is only a few seconds. I don't think the Syrians have the ability to shoot down aircraft instantly.
For the record, I hope Assad is overthrown and held accountable for his war crimes and crimes against humanity.
According to the Syrian version of events, the plane was hit in Syrian airspace and crashed in international waters.
Even the Turkish version of the events places their jet fighter one kilometer outside Syrian airspace. At the cruising speed of an F4, a kilometer is only a few seconds. I don't think the Syrians have the ability to shoot down aircraft instantly.
For the record, I hope Assad is overthrown and held accountable for his war crimes and crimes against humanity.
If the plane was in International Air Space the order is then illegal- I am 99. 9 sure on that. No attack - leaving peacefully- In International Air Space - free to go.
NATO and Israel and the Turks- Syrians- will all have radar images- radio transmissions by pilot(s)- ground orders etc- even to the exact point where the plane was when the Syrian fighter fired.
Much like the Soviets when they shot down the Korean Air passenger jet-
Or it could be much like the Soviets when they shot down a Korean passenger jet carrying innocent passengers as hostage on an American spy mission.... as the Soviets claimed. I find it difficult to believe a pilot could fly that far off course accidentally. Its possible that the airplane was carrying surveillance equipment. The Soviets claimed the airplane flew directly over a top secret facility in the middle of test. Also the Americans were playing cat and mouse games at the time. The Soviets just chased off an American spy plane, when the Korean airliner flew into Soviet airspace. Also the American military made a huge effort in order to be the first to recover wreckage.
I suspect in that case and in this one, the truth will remain a mystery...
I suspect in that case and in this one, the truth will remain a mystery...
I still think KAL 007 set a direct course for Seoul. Off course is the easiest thing to be. Ask a certain Italian skipper