Thomas Mulcair, being "Thomas Mulcair"....

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petros

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Re: Stéphane Dion criticizes Thomas Mulcair for East-West strategy

Explain how that would be done flossy. What is sustainably developing oil? We have more than just oil sands. If oil sands closed today heavy would replace it. Then what? Close the heavy? If that happened we'd go with intermediate. Then what? Close that? Then we'd sell sweet;.....etc etc etc
 

Goober

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Re: Stéphane Dion criticizes Thomas Mulcair for East-West strategy

The biggest confusion that most of those who believe this is some sort of "East-West strategy" is that it stems from the idea that we shouldn't be developing the oilsands. In fact, that is not the argument.

The argument is to develop the oil sands in a way that still brings prosperity to the country, but is sustainable so that other sectors of the economy which depend on resource collection (like MANUFACTURING) are not adversely affected.

The new reports that were released actually prove that we are suffering from a mild form of dutch disease. The reason that it is mild is because we have not really ramped up oilsands development yet. We can install pipelines and ship out our natural resources, but if we do so too quickly, this imbalance in the economy will be unreversable.

Once that happens, we commit our economy entirely to resource extraction, and if any of those resources become scarce, the entire economy will suffer because of it.

Then Mulcair should have a reasonably detailed plan for this. But he seems to be shooting first - also endorsing a mayor in NFLD for the job - sticking his nose into prov areas - except when it comes to the students in Quebec.

When he and Premier dad announced Dutch disease it was blowing the situation out of proportion - Now it is mild - you will always have some economic distortions in Canada.

But as mentioned - Mr Mulcair - where is the plan - Numbers - what should be done - tax credits - tax increases - what is the plan?
 

taxslave

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Re: Stéphane Dion criticizes Thomas Mulcair for East-West strategy

The biggest confusion that most of those who believe this is some sort of "East-West strategy" is that it stems from the idea that we shouldn't be developing the oilsands. In fact, that is not the argument.

The argument is to develop the oil sands in a way that still brings prosperity to the country, but is sustainable so that other sectors of the economy which depend on resource collection (like MANUFACTURING) are not adversely affected.

The new reports that were released actually prove that we are suffering from a mild form of dutch disease. The reason that it is mild is because we have not really ramped up oilsands development yet. We can install pipelines and ship out our natural resources, but if we do so too quickly, this imbalance in the economy will be unreversable.

Once that happens, we commit our economy entirely to resource extraction, and if any of those resources become scarce, the entire economy will suffer because of it.

Expanding the oil fields is about the only generator of manufacturing jobs in Canada until the US economy picks up. Just that most of them are not going to areas under CAW's thumb. Even the places where Japanese auto companies set up shop in Ontario are doing well.
 

petros

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Re: Stéphane Dion criticizes Thomas Mulcair for East-West strategy

Japs are union too. Germans, Koreans etc.
Want to know why nor am auto industry tanked? US/Canadian vehicles are pieces of ****.
 
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mentalfloss

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Re: Stéphane Dion criticizes Thomas Mulcair for East-West strategy

I always know when I hit on an argument that you find indefensible Flossy, the reddies give it away.

No I only give reddies for extremely misleading posts - you're lucky you don't get more.

Mulcair is hammered in every province that doesn't have an uncompetitive mfg sector; it's not just Northern Ontario (which by the way, has a big resource base).

If you're talking about the political leaders of Alberta and B.C., that's because they misinterpreted his comments to be some east/west fight or oilsands attack, which it is not. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to comprehend. Maybe you should use your own brain and diverge from the talking heads a bit.

Exact figures aren't necessary? Are you on glue?.. So much for the dutch disease argument, as expected, it's a lofty ideal that can't be measured or properly articulated.

You asked for figures on how much production should be changed as a result of this problem. That analysis can only be completed once the problem is actually identified. And there's only been recent headway to lend credibility to the dutch disease hypothesis.

You have the belief that any opinion piece in the papers that have the word 'study' or 'report' attached to them are magically factual... In most cases, and especially this issue, the simplest answer is generally the right one... The Cdn mfg sector is not competitive and if the decision not to buy these products is based on the notion that the product is just a few extra pennies, well, the message is pretty clear, ain't it?

This is all just an excuse because you can't refute the facts in these reports. If you have a problem with a report, instead of just complaining that you hate the report, find contrary evidence.

Then Mulcair should have a reasonably detailed plan for this. But he seems to be shooting first - also endorsing a mayor in NFLD for the job - sticking his nose into prov areas - except when it comes to the students in Quebec.

When he and Premier dad announced Dutch disease it was blowing the situation out of proportion - Now it is mild - you will always have some economic distortions in Canada.

That's just your interpretation based on the politics. None of us knew the degree of this type of malaise - in fact, up until now, anyone who suggested it even existed was treated with extreme harassment.

Regardless of the politics, the fact still stands that 25 out of 80 manufacturing sites have been affected by this and that will only get worse if we decide to ramp up production too quickly and avoid environmental costs.
 

petros

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Re: Stéphane Dion criticizes Thomas Mulcair for East-West strategy

How many jobs were lost thanks to "green" initiatives?
 

Goober

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Re: Stéphane Dion criticizes Thomas Mulcair for East-West strategy

No I only give reddies for extremely misleading posts - you're lucky you don't get more.



If you're talking about the political leaders of Alberta and B.C., that's because they misinterpreted his comments to be some east/west fight or oilsands attack, which it is not. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to comprehend. Maybe you should use your own brain and diverge from the talking heads a bit.



You asked for figures on how much production should be changed as a result of this problem. That analysis can only be completed once the problem is actually identified. And there's only been recent headway to lend credibility to the dutch disease hypothesis.



This is all just an excuse because you can't refute the facts in these reports. If you have a problem with a report, instead of just complaining that you hate the report, find contrary evidence.



That's just your interpretation based on the politics. None of us knew the degree of this type of malaise - in fact, up until now, anyone who suggested it even existed was treated with extreme harassment.

Regardless of the politics, the fact still stands that 25 out of 80 manufacturing sites have been affected by this and that will only get worse if we decide to ramp up production too quickly and avoid environmental costs.

The companies developing the sites went to the Competition Board a few years ago. Asked if they work together and stagger the development would that be seen as collusion to stifle - interfere with the job market and other rules. They were given the OK. This enables them to stagger development so the shortage of skilled workers needed will not be the same situation as experienced a few years ago. That said we all know there still is a shortage of such workers.

And companies will pay above other areas for skilled workers - That is normal - People go where the work is.
The newer generation plants are efficient - less water- less energy per barrel.

Mulcair placed all the blame on the west - no mention that the US is in recession - our largest customer- same with Europe - recession - Ont - high energy costs courtesy of Premier Dads misguided and dumb ass green plans for electricity.
 

mentalfloss

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Re: Stéphane Dion criticizes Thomas Mulcair for East-West strategy

Mulcair placed all the blame on the west.

Nope.

He commented on shale production in Ontario, and how avoiding the cost of environmental cleanup nationwide also contributes to artificially inflating the dollar.

Anyway, it's time to take a fresh look at this, as I'm tired of reciting the same points to everyone in this thread.


Thomson: A refreshingly thoughtful discussion of oilsands challenges

EDMONTON - It wasn't exactly a day at the beach or even a day at the spa - but a conference put on by the University of Alberta this week was something of a welcome escape from the daily grind.

And by grind I mean the ongoing war of words between those who consider the oilsands the root of all evil and those who think the oilsands the pinnacle of all that is good, a war that has been heating up lately with an anti-oilsands attack from federal NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair followed by counterstrikes from hot-under-the-collar western politicians.

For those of us who have to pay attention to this pingpong game, the conference put on by the university's Institute for Public Economics (under the slightly cheeky title, Boom and Bust Again: the Sequel) offered an escape from the rhetoric into a refuge of critical thought where you could sit back, close your eyes and let some of Canada's leading economists verbally massage the kinks and knots from what is often a polarizing and exhausting debate.

The analysts are not anti-oilsands bashers and neither are they cheerleaders. Nobody was unfurling banners at the conference for Greenpeace or Ethical Oil.org.

Instead, the conference looked at, among other things, the social cost of Alberta's boom and bust cycle, the pressures of oilsands growth on the labour market and the impact of all of this on Alberta's First Nations.

The conference heard from Finance Minister Doug Horner and "oilsands mayor" Melissa Blake of the Regional Municipality of Wood Buffalo.

And because this was a conference of economists, at least one of the two-dozen-or-so speakers argued that Alberta should adopt a provincial sales tax and reform the province's income tax system.

A sales tax makes perfect sense in the ivory tower of academia but Alberta politicians realize that adopting a consumption tax would be about as popular as importing Norwegian rats into the province.

But the refreshing aspect of these kinds of academic conferences is that they continually push boundaries that are not always, fiscally speaking, politically correct.

They challenge conventional wisdoms and offer new ways of looking at old ideas. They discuss the challenges facing Alberta's petro-economy - and our reliance on the oilsands - in a manner critical, but never cynical.

Energy economist Andrew Leach, for example, argued that when it approves a new mega project, the provincial government is not properly estimating the true impact of the project on the provincial economy and how much royalty it will generate.

The more projects we approve, said Leach, the greater the pressure on inflation as competition for skilled labour and materials drives prices up.

A project designed to generate 100,000 barrels of oil a day, he said by way of illustration, might drive up costs for the entire industry by 10 cents a barrel - which could actually mean less money for the provincial treasury.

"There's more revenue on that particular project but what if I'm losing 10 cents a barrel on my royalties over three million barrels because of cost inflation across the whole industry?" said Leach. "I produce 100,000 new barrels but by producing those 100,000 barrels perhaps the province is losing 10 cents a barrel on three million, that's a different calculation."

Leach says at some point approving more and more oilsands projects without factoring in the full costs of development will be selfdefeating.

Another challenge facing oilsands development is the environmental cost - and it's a cost that's going to get higher.

Andre Plourde, an economist who sat on the province's Royalty Review Panel in 2007, is arguing that Alberta must introduce a substantial carbon tax, somewhere between $5 and $50 a tonne on all emissions.

The province currently has a $15-per-tonne tax on large emitters (over 100,000 tonnes) but it's based on the intensity of emissions, not on absolute emissions. This means the tax gets watered down and is actually much lower than $15 per tonne.

Plourde says each $5 increment in a carbon tax would only add 25 cents to the cost of each barrel of oil - and it would send a message to the rest of the world that Alberta is seriously trying to reduce the environmental footprint of the oilsands, the fastest growing source of greenhouse gas emissions in Canada.

"The challenge that we're going to face in the future is not that we're putting our oil producing industry in a competitive disadvantage by acting on climate change but that we're going to lose the international social licence to operate if we don't do this," says Plourde.

"That's my worry. We're potentially going to see all kinds of jurisdictions finding ways to make life difficult for Alberta and Canada to continue to produce and export bitumen."

Plourde's comments are sure to set some Albertans' teeth on edge - but for those Albertans looking for logical solutions to the challenges facing Alberta's oil industry, he offers some cool logic to offset the overheated rhetoric.

Thomson: A refreshingly thoughtful discussion of oilsands challenges
 

petros

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Re: Stéphane Dion criticizes Thomas Mulcair for East-West strategy

A tanked Euro, a tanked USD and a tanked Jap yen all make the CDN dollar valuable. When those currencies took hits what happened to our dollar? Did investor start gobbling up the CDN dollar making it more valuable?
 

mentalfloss

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Re: Stéphane Dion criticizes Thomas Mulcair for East-West strategy

A tanked Euro, a tanked USD and a tanked Jap yen all make the CDN dollar valuable. When those currencies took hits what happened to our dollar? Did investor start gobbling up the CDN dollar making it more valuable?

Did you even read the above?


Andre Plourde, an economist who sat on the province's Royalty Review Panel in 2007, is arguing that Alberta must introduce a substantial carbon tax, somewhere between $5 and $50 a tonne on all emissions.

The province currently has a $15-per-tonne tax on large emitters (over 100,000 tonnes) but it's based on the intensity of emissions, not on absolute emissions. This means the tax gets watered down and is actually much lower than $15 per tonne.


Plourde says each $5 increment in a carbon tax would only add 25 cents to the cost of each barrel of oil - and it would send a message to the rest of the world that Alberta is seriously trying to reduce the environmental footprint of the oilsands, the fastest growing source of greenhouse gas emissions in Canada.


"The challenge that we're going to face in the future is not that we're putting our oil producing industry in a competitive disadvantage by acting on climate change but that we're going to lose the international social licence to operate if we don't do this," says Plourde.
 

petros

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Re: Stéphane Dion criticizes Thomas Mulcair for East-West strategy

Have you ever been to Alberta (excluding Banff)?

Did you cheer when 500 people in Regina lost MANUFACTURING jobs thanks to XL suspension?
 

captain morgan

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Re: Stéphane Dion criticizes Thomas Mulcair for East-West strategy

No I only give reddies for extremely misleading posts - you're lucky you don't get more.

Wrong, the common factor in your actions have to do with your inability to provide any thoughtful response(s).

It's frustration Flossy, plain and simple

If you're talking about the political leaders of Alberta and B.C., that's because they misinterpreted his comments to be some east/west fight or oilsands attack, which it is not. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to comprehend. Maybe you should use your own brain and diverge from the talking heads a bit.

Misinterpretation of Mulcair's comments?... Maybe he's a sh*tty communicator or perhaps, the fallacious comments about silly eco-issues has clouded the communications.

The real problem here is that you subjectively interpret your messiah's words to fit into the narrow constructs that you believe are factual... Hence the perpetual references in the OPs of Study or Report; somehow you feel that the inclusion of those 2 words adds credibility to an otherwise ridiculous train of logic.

You asked for figures on how much production should be changed as a result of this problem. That analysis can only be completed once the problem is actually identified. And there's only been recent headway to lend credibility to the dutch disease hypothesis.

Nice... So basically, dutch disease can't be quantified.

This is all just an excuse because you can't refute the facts in these reports. If you have a problem with a report, instead of just complaining that you hate the report, find contrary evidence.

You've presented no facts. I specifically asked you to provide a hard definition of 'sustainable development' but alas, it's not forthcoming.

That said, please don't insult us all by making references to 'facts' that you have provided. All we have received is your own personal, highly subjective and skewed analysis on a highly complex issue.

That's just your interpretation based on the politics. None of us knew the degree of this type of malaise - in fact, up until now, anyone who suggested it even existed was treated with extreme harassment.

They are treated that way 'cause they are idiots, hell-bent on punishing every Canadian with a low value currency in order to prop-up a failing and uncompetitive sector.

Regardless of the politics, the fact still stands that 25 out of 80 manufacturing sites have been affected by this and that will only get worse if we decide to ramp up production too quickly and avoid environmental costs.

Kinda like CAT?

I notice that you're shying away from that inconvenient little circumstance.
 
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IdRatherBeSkiing

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Re: Stéphane Dion criticizes Thomas Mulcair for East-West strategy

What? I thought Manitoba was considered one of the Western
Provinces. Did this Mulcair forget them in his East vrs West
tactic? Is Manitoba not "West" enough for Mulcair?

Manitoba is considered West be people in Ontario or East and East by people in Saskatchewan or West.
 

Goober

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Re: Stéphane Dion criticizes Thomas Mulcair for East-West strategy

Did you even read the above?


Andre Plourde, an economist who sat on the province's Royalty Review Panel in 2007, is arguing that Alberta must introduce a substantial carbon tax, somewhere between $5 and $50 a tonne on all emissions.

The province currently has a $15-per-tonne tax on large emitters (over 100,000 tonnes) but it's based on the intensity of emissions, not on absolute emissions. This means the tax gets watered down and is actually much lower than $15 per tonne.


Plourde says each $5 increment in a carbon tax would only add 25 cents to the cost of each barrel of oil - and it would send a message to the rest of the world that Alberta is seriously trying to reduce the environmental footprint of the oilsands, the fastest growing source of greenhouse gas emissions in Canada.


"The challenge that we're going to face in the future is not that we're putting our oil producing industry in a competitive disadvantage by acting on climate change but that we're going to lose the international social licence to operate if we don't do this," says Plourde.
Mulcair’s oil-sands musing risks halting NDP momentum - The Globe and Mail