From a girl drawing a picture to one who says she plays with daddy's guns.....
That's an Olympic style long jump...or......goal post move:smile:
If she had drawn a dynamite stick...you would suggest a swat team?????:lol:
Nanny State gone Mad!!! Gun drawing causes arrest....
- Thread starter Colpy
- Start date
From a girl drawing a picture to one who says she plays with daddy's guns.....
That's an Olympic style long jump...or......goal post move:smile:
If she had drawn a dynamite stick...you would suggest a swat team?????:lol:
Okay, let's put this in perspective.
In the USA, a child is 48 times more apt to be killed in a vehicle than in a firearms accident.
Does this mean that a child's drawing of a car in kindergarten justifies arrest, raid, and search???
In the USA, a child is 9 times more apt to be choked or strangled accidentally than to be killed in a gun accident.
Does this mean that a child's drawing of a scarf in kindergarten justifies arrest, raid, and search???
In the USA, a child is 7 times more apt to be drowned than to be killed in a firearms accident.
Does this mean that a child's drawing of a swimming pool in kindergarten justifies arrest, raid, and search???
In the USA, a child is 7 times more apt to be poisoned than accidentally killed with a firearm.
Does this mean that a child's drawing mommy using laundry bleach in kindergarten justifies arrest, raid, and search???
In the USA, a child is 3 times more apt to be burned to death than accidentally killed with a firearm.
Does this mean that a child's drawing of a campfire in kindergarten justifies arrest, raid, and search???
Beginning to see how ludicrous your stance is???
BTW, in 2007, 138 "children" 0-19 yrs were killed in gun accidents in the USA. That is a lot less than 500.
National Child Mortality Data
The drawing of the gun by itself didn't create a false perception:
The junior kindergarten teacher saw it (the drawing of a handgun), questioned Neveah about it, and feared there was a gun in the girl's home that the children were playing with. The school called social services, who in turn called the cops.
After going through the home, executing a warrant, police found a see-through plastic toy that fires plastic darts.
"We have seen these weapons, we have seen these 'items' out in our community, they have been altered and would appear to an adult to be a real firearm, and in these cases they were used to commit robberies, and in this case I am not surprised that a child had the belief that it was real," Thaler said.
She didn't just draw the gun. The drawing of a hand gun initiated a discussion where she said indicated she believed it was a real gun. I don't have a transcript of the questions the girl was asked and her answers, but I'd be willing to bet that they school staff also asked these questions:
Does Daddy let you hold the gun?
Does Daddy let you play with the gun?
Have you ever fired the gun?
Considering it was a dart gun, Daddy probably did let her fire the "gun" and let her play with it when he wasn't around.
Likely her answers along with the drawing itself created an impression (false as it turns out) that the girl had access to a real gun. I doubt that the school staff and police would have acted this way based on a drawing alone. That you would have this impression speaks volumes about your ability to think critically. News reports can be as inaccurate and misleading as a 4 year old's testimony. Most likely the girl's answers triggered the school staff and police reaction far more than the drawing which initiated the discussion.
I'm pretty sure that standard procedure for police when they believe there is a chance someone has a concealed weapon is to handcuff and search them. However a conversation with the father first, might have defused the situation.
Do you have a hand gun? No
Your daughter claims you have a hand gun and lets her play with it? Dumbfounded look on father's face, followed by "What?"
It wouldn't take too much detective work to get to the truth. A few more questions and a trip to the house with the father and daughter and ask the girl "Is this the gun that Daddy uses to shoot monsters and bad people".... case closed.
I bet the numbers are far lower in Canada than in the US. I don't have comparable numbers, but I found this:
http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/rs/rep-rap/1998/wd98_4-dt98_4/p6.html#a64
Relax Colpy, I have no intention in interfering with law abiding citizens like yourself acquiring hand guns. In fact, I encourage anyone with an interest in firearms to join a gun club and take lessons from a qualified person. Colpy sounds like a qualified person.
I am only against people who acquire firearms illegally and/or store them improperly. In these cases, I support the police using judgement and common sense to enforce the law.
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The most detailed piece I have yet found on the situation:
TheRecord - Police chief wants review of arrest sparked by gun...
There was no warrant, although it appears the citizen gave the police permission to search.
Silly bugger.
Which still leaves the question of his arrest, and that of his family. As well as the pressure exerted on him to allow what was an unreasonable search.
We'll see.
Good thing the kid wasn't 11....
Now, if this was in Palestine, would there be some switching of shoes?
Now, if this was in Palestine, would there be some switching of shoes?
Actually, as I understand the game police play with uncooperative people, his choice was either give the police permission to search his house now, or wait in a prison cell for the police to get a judge to sign a warrant to search his home. In other words, do you want out of prison now or later... with later meaning hours to days..
I think the police over reacted, but I do think they had no choice to act and follow this up. Doing nothing after a little girl testifies to having access to a hand gun would be irresponsible.
Teach them to draw it with the 'safety on' and finger off the trigger.
It then become an education tool. if the kid can describe how to clean a semi-auto with a blindfold on, you might want to 'interview the parents' make them do a gun safety presentation to the students and other parents.
PS keeping a part out that makes the gun as useful as any other hammer might be a way to beat a gun charge yet 'have access to a working weapon' in a few minutes. Take the bolt out of a long-gun and put it in your pocket means you can carry it in your vehicle as it is in a non-working condition. No I haven't tried it, lol
It then become an education tool. if the kid can describe how to clean a semi-auto with a blindfold on, you might want to 'interview the parents' make them do a gun safety presentation to the students and other parents.
PS keeping a part out that makes the gun as useful as any other hammer might be a way to beat a gun charge yet 'have access to a working weapon' in a few minutes. Take the bolt out of a long-gun and put it in your pocket means you can carry it in your vehicle as it is in a non-working condition. No I haven't tried it, lol
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One person's testimony is evidence and may or may not be considered convincing or definitive proof depending on the details and supporting evidence.
Girl: My Daddy has a colt 45 handgun. Its heavy and black. When I pull back the hammer, it makes a click. When I pull the trigger, it makes a loud bang, which scared me at first. But now I use it to shoot at tin cans on the fence in the back yard when Daddy's not home. I even take it with me to school sometimes to scare people I don't like.
Many people independently saying the same thing with supporting evidence, makes the story more convincing.
Neighbor1: Yes we heard someone shooting a firearm next door. I looked over the fence and saw a little girl with a hand gun.
Neighbor2: We heard someone shooting too, but we were too scared to look. But a bullet came through the window here and hit the refrigerator here. There's the bullet.
At some point the evidence becomes too much to deny, unless you are LoneWolf, who seems to have an amazing ability to deny overwhelming evidence in order to maintain their beliefs, when it comes to certain topics.
Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.
My kids always had access to handguns.
One of the big problems is a kid's fascination with weapons as forbidden items, which leads them to seek them out and play with them secretively. . My theory was to innoculate my kids against any such action by making the guns simply like any other item....in other words, if the wanted to look at guns, I would open up my gun locker, and let them safely see and examine firearms under my watchful eye. I always pounded it into them....ONLY with me, and the four safety rules........
When my daughter was four, she could tell you how to field strip my Browning 9mm.
Actually, I may have done too good a job at demystifying firearms....neither of my kids show any real interest in the shooting sports. (sigh)
You need a REASON to search a man's castle.....some evidence of a CRIME being committed.
THERE WAS NONE.
Was there a shot fired or are you resorting to the old I-like-it-so-it's-okay thing again? You'd have pages of aghast cut 'n' paste if the cops were IsraeliOne person's testimony is evidence and may or may not be considered convincing or definitive proof depending on the details and supporting evidence.
Girl: My Daddy has a colt 45 handgun. Its heavy and black. When I pull back the hammer, it makes a click. When I pull the trigger, it makes a loud bang, which scared me at first. But now I use it to shoot at tin cans on the fence in the back yard when Daddy's not home. I even take it with me to school sometimes to scare people I don't like.
Many people independently saying the same thing with supporting evidence, makes the story more convincing.
Neighbor1: Yes we heard someone shooting a firearm next door. I looked over the fence and saw a little girl with a hand gun.
Neighbor2: We heard someone shooting too, but we were too scared to look. But a bullet came through the window here and hit the refrigerator here. There's the bullet.
At some point the evidence becomes too much to deny, unless you are LoneWolf, who seems to have an amazing ability to deny overwhelming evidence in order to maintain their beliefs, when it comes to certain topics.
Colpy, I think you misunderstand my post.
I am not saying I agree with games police play. I'm saying what you can expect if the police want to search your house.
I am not saying the police had grounds to arrest the father, but they did have to following up a report that a 4 year old girl was playing with a hand gun.
I support parents teaching their children skills, including how to handle firearms. If you have firearms in the house, you better show them what they are, what they do, how to hold them, the purpose of the safety, muzzle control, checking to see if loaded. When they are a little older, and able to physically carry them properly, they should learn how to load and fire. They should not be curious about the unknown and passing on a skill like this can be a bonding activity.
When i was a kid, the firearms in the house were always stored unloaded (but accessible) and the ammo was in a locked box. Now storing firearms like that would be illegal I think. I learned how to handle and shoot firearms at 12. I got my first .22 at 14. When I was 16 I got to use the 12 ga. shotgun. I can't remember the first time I went hunting with my Dad. I was probably a toddler. The armed person(s) always walks in front. I sold all my firearms 20 years ago and took up wildlife photography
I am against leaving a loaded handgun on the coffee table, pounding back a 40 of vodka, while your 4 year old plays nearby. In other words, I'm against, dangerous irresponsible behavior. Not responsible parenting.
I am not saying I agree with games police play. I'm saying what you can expect if the police want to search your house.
I am not saying the police had grounds to arrest the father, but they did have to following up a report that a 4 year old girl was playing with a hand gun.
I support parents teaching their children skills, including how to handle firearms. If you have firearms in the house, you better show them what they are, what they do, how to hold them, the purpose of the safety, muzzle control, checking to see if loaded. When they are a little older, and able to physically carry them properly, they should learn how to load and fire. They should not be curious about the unknown and passing on a skill like this can be a bonding activity.
When i was a kid, the firearms in the house were always stored unloaded (but accessible) and the ammo was in a locked box. Now storing firearms like that would be illegal I think. I learned how to handle and shoot firearms at 12. I got my first .22 at 14. When I was 16 I got to use the 12 ga. shotgun. I can't remember the first time I went hunting with my Dad. I was probably a toddler. The armed person(s) always walks in front. I sold all my firearms 20 years ago and took up wildlife photography
I am against leaving a loaded handgun on the coffee table, pounding back a 40 of vodka, while your 4 year old plays nearby. In other words, I'm against, dangerous irresponsible behavior. Not responsible parenting.
Where is anything said about loaded guns, alcohol or any sort of behaviour anything worse than a drawing of a gun?
Methinks your imaginatory muscle could use some relaxant
Methinks your imaginatory muscle could use some relaxant
Do you have a link for that or did you just add the part in red???????
Edited to add: As per your usual M.O.
I was trying to point out the difference between testimony, conclusive testimony and supporting evidence. Some people like yourself seem to have a problem with the concept.
I would not be on the side of the police if they forced a 11 year old girl at gunpoint to walk ahead of them and open doors as they went from crack house to crack house searching for armed gang bangers. Now if an 11 year old claimed that the police did this, I'd be skeptical. But if our court system banned the practice after the police did this to someone else and that person was shot by a gang banger, and then the police organizations appealed the court ban, plus I saw a video of Canadian police doing this and it made the BBC and was reported by dozens of human rights groups, I'd tend to believe that the police had resorted to using children as human shields. Let's just say that my skepticism would decrease in proportion to the the amount of supporting evidence.
So far, I've never heard a single report of Canadian police officers using children as human shields, unlike other organizations that our current government unshakably supports.
BTW, I also believe that the police overreacted in this case, but I do believe they had to react, based on what they were told. They could have been more reasonable and exercised better judgement.
You did a great job of demonstrating exaggeration - as happens when bluffing or fibbing to get out of a situation. Odd how you can't see a difference....
Okay.
Yeah, the way guns were stored in your house, although quite safe, would now be illegal. Long guns must be either disassembled or trigger locked or in a locked container, with the ammunition stored separately.
There are only two places a loaded handgun should ever be..........in your holster on your hip, or in your hand.
Same with me neither of my kids have any interests in firearms.....yet my daughter, the first time she fired my .357 around 16 yrs old, put all ten within the outer circle on a standard 20 yd. target at the club, which newbies never do.
She's a natural....but no interest at all...
