What would YOU want to hear at church?

L Gilbert

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Cliffy

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You'll need to decide whether all Biblical Christians, along with Christ himself, are schizophrenics, or are bearing the truth. I expect the former diagnosis from all unbelievers. It's part of the package of being a Christian who doesn't compromise or bend to political correctness in an attempt to appear sophisticated. Confession of my Lord is worth much more to me than my popularity in this culture.
Biblical Christians are not the only Christians. That is your judgement based on an extremely flawed book. If you prefer to have a steal trap for a mind, that is your prerogative. Just be aware that steal traps are illegal in Canada. :p

Popularity contests are juvenile but playing one with a fictitious being is really silly. The Creator I have come to know is not that immature and doesn't play favourites.
 

bluebyrd35

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The way you talk, it's as if you position your challenge to God through me, like you're practicing for what you're going to say on judgment day. I cannot give you what you're looking for; I cannot open your eyes. If you ignore everything that is around you, then you'll be the fool to me and I'll be the fool to you. We're not the same, you and me. We don't speak the same language. We don't have the same master. We don't listen to the same voice. You follow your teachers, I follow mine. You hunger and thirst after your cisterns, I do after mine.

How does one challenge a non-existent entity?? Most here, simply reject the notion of a creator that has more faults than our most heinous criminals. The biggest problem you face.......our eyes are wide open. I guess the biggest difference between us, ......I do not have a master.
 

adopted

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Popularity contests are juvenile but playing one with a fictitious being is really silly. The Creator I have come to know is not that immature and doesn't play favourites.

You're right that he doesn't play favorites. Also, I can't win by "trying to be popular" with him. He is the God who shows mercy on the unrighteous.

......I do not have a master.

Some Jews also claimed that they had never been enslaved to anyone, to which Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin."

You may be free to do what you want, but you aren't free to want what you ought. Therefore, you are a slave of the most miserable sort.

And still you claim your eyes are wide open? (To which Jesus replied, "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.")
 
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Dexter Sinister

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. The gospels were written by the apostles that Christ appointed; therein, they recorded His teachings, His life, His death, His resurrection, and His ascension.
That's almost certainly not true. Christianity traditionally ascribes the gospels' authorship to Jesus' disciples, but there's no evidence for it, and the internal evidence in the gospels themselves, with references to the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple by Rome about 40 years after Jesus' time, strongly suggests otherwise.
 

adopted

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Christianity traditionally ascribes the gospels' authorship to Jesus' disciples, but there's no evidence for it, and the internal evidence in the gospels themselves, with references to the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple by Rome about 40 years after Jesus' time, strongly suggests otherwise.

The gospel of Mark was the earliest, and was certainly written before the fall of Jerusalem. The references to that event were made by Jesus Christ, who prophesied the event. But, if you reject his supernatural revelation, then of course you can't see it being written before 70 A.D.

The gospel of Luke was written by the same Luke who wrote the book of Acts, which occurs chronologically after the events in the gospel, and leaves off with Paul still under house arrest in Rome, which suggests a date around 62 or 63 A.D.

The gospel of Matthew warns against the Sadducees, though these rapidly disappeared after 70 A.D., suggesting a writing date earlier than 70 A.D.
 

talloola

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like you're practicing for what you're going to say on judgment day.

Judgement day? there is no such thing as judgement day. I am going thru my life as we speak, with
no thought in my mind to any judgement day, that is only for those who believe such things.

dead people can't talk.

no one has ever come back to tell all of us how they were judged on judgement day, there is no
evidence that there is any such thing, believe that if you must, but once one dies they can no
longer flit around the earth chatting about what happened to them, they are either 6 feet under,
or their ashes are distributed or buried somewhere.
no one can prove that any dead body has done anything after death other than return to the earth.
no one has ever seen a soul, and of course when questioned, the believers say that is is invisible,
so that ends that. so is casper.
if a surgeon finds a soul during some operation sometime, and it has the name written right on it,
well OK, then. lol

The believers in such things don't seem to be able to relate to those who don't believe, and I can't
understand that position, as I do understand thoroughly those who do believe, that is who they are,
and I am certainly not going to change any of them, why should I.
Why should I try to change them, and who am I to be so arrogant to insist that I am right and they
are wrong, it is their business, and they should not be so arrogant to criticize what I 'don't believe.

.
 

adopted

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no one has ever come back to tell all of us how they were judged on judgement day, there is no
evidence that there is any such thing, believe that if you must,

But you believe in evolution? You didn't need somebody to travel through time to give you evidence?

no one has ever seen a soul, and of course when questioned, the believers say that is is invisible,
so that ends that. so is casper.

So are your thoughts. So are your emotions. So are your memories. So is love. So is hope.

if a surgeon finds a soul during some operation sometime, and it has the name written right on it,
well OK, then. lol

No, I don't think you would, because you are determined to not believe.

Why should I try to change them, and who am I to be so arrogant to insist that I am right and they
are wrong, it is their business, and they should not be so arrogant to criticize what I 'don't believe.

But that's exactly what you're doing when you post your opinion in this forum, and mock their beliefs, equating it with believing in Casper.

I don't have a problem with you doing that. I'm also not going to pretend that I'm not doing that. Just don't pretend you aren't.
 

talloola

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So are your thoughts. So are your emotions. So are your memories. So is love. So is hope.


No, I don't think you would, because you are determined to not believe.


But that's exactly what you're doing when you post your opinion in this forum, and mock their beliefs, equating it with believing in Casper.

I don't have a problem with you doing that. I'm also not going to pretend that I'm not doing that. Just don't pretend you aren't.
.

After all of my explanation, you still can't bring yourself to understand how I can be purely content,
and happy as a non believer, and accept me that way, and know each of us must be true to ourselves and
follow our own paths. It is very easy.

If you can't differentiate between thoughts, emotions and memories compared to a soul, that is sad.

I don't have to be determined, I don't have to try, I am who I am, a non believer, true to myself,
and real.

Don't know about the pretending thing, why would you even think that, where would that come from, I am
a very direct person, would never pretend anything, unless I was acting in a skit.

You enjoy your beliefs, be happy with them, but what you believe isn't all there is, there is alternatives,
and good reasons for those alternatives, and some very intelligent posters here, to explain that to you,
so that you can see other's reasons why to, 'not' believe.
 
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Dexter Sinister

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But you believe in evolution? You didn't need somebody to travel through time to give you evidence?
That's probably the dumbest thing you've said so far. Obviously your B.Sc. taught you almost nothing about how science works. You don't need eyewitness accounts to figure out what happened, and you must know that, because you don't have any to support your position either. But evolution isn't a matter of belief, it's what all the evidence points to, it's as well established a fact as the fact of gravity and the earth's orbit about the sun. Denying it is intellectually equivalent to believing the earth is flat and sits on top of a giant turtle.
 

L Gilbert

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;-) Yer letting him off light.....
Just posting what I've learned about the 6th commandment. Evidence is evidence. It does not choose sides. lol

He is the God who shows mercy on the unrighteous.
Perhaps sometimes it did, but I can't remember any mercy shown to those who crossed this god's path.

And still you claim your eyes are wide open?
Perhaps not wide open, but mine are open and accept anything there is to see. Like I said, I am perfectly willing to consider any evidence presented. I simply haven't seen any supporting the existence of any gods. Pointing to a tree and suggesting some god made it is not valid. There's no way to validate it. Same for any other item or occurrence in the natural world.

But you believe in evolution? You didn't need somebody to travel through time to give you evidence?
Evolution is verifiable and demonstrable.

So are your thoughts. So are your emotions. So are your memories. So is love. So is hope.
There is evidence for those things. Goblins and elves are also invisible, but there's no evidence for them. Electricity is invisible, but there's evidence for it.

It was in response to somebody saying there are no eyewitnesses to judgment day; therefore, no reason to believe in judgment day.
Ask the courts how reliable eyewitnesses can be.

The Problem With Eyewitness Testimony

Suddenly, a big impact on criminal justice
 

adopted

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At the end of this conversation, if indeed it is the end, and I hope it is, for I am distressed and perplexed, my most concrete concern is expressed toward God himself, a longing for an answer to the question, why, oh God, won't you save these people, for I compare as the worst among them, the least worthy!? Of all the men and women in this conversation, I am convinced that I am the most wretched, the least worthy, the greatest sinner, the most deserving of hell.
Why does L Gilbert look at a tree, and remain blind to God? Why does he say, “I can't remember any mercy shown to those who crossed [God's] path” when he's engaged in a conversation with me, the unrighteous, to whom God has shown mercy? To David, the murdering adulterer? This David God declared righteous!
Why do the people in this forum, on the one hand, complain because there are no eyewitnesses declaring the truths of God; then, when we discuss eyewitnesses, a complaint against eyewitness testimony rises? Why are your hearts hardened and determined against God no matter what He presents? As Christ said, when we sang a funeral song, you did not mourn; when we sang a celebration song, you did not dance – what do you want? You resist Him at every turn! You stubborn, hardhearted people!
But the answer to my anguish is, not surprisingly, in the scripture – which answers all my questions, as my reliable guide. Here's the real answer to my seeming complaint against God: It is God's purpose of election – the sovereignty of His choice, though I complain, and though a voice says, “Is God unjust?”
God said to Moses in Exodus 33: “I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.” I don't want it to be that. I want to trump God and tell Him to choose all these people. But He is God. That's the biggest problem. He is God, and nobody else is, and so the rebellious feel justified in their rebellion, and the justified feel like rebelling from their justification.
After all is said, He remains the potter – and you hate that, though you would not exist if He had not gifted you life and time – yet you refuse to thank Him – you rather use the voice He gave you to blaspheme him – and I wanted to peer into his sovereign choice, which I cannot understand, nor was it mine to understand. I had to decide that it belongs to him, not me. I said, “this is unfair, God,” but then I was silenced when I realized that even less fair was his mercy on me. What did he owe me? He would be justified to harden my heart by simply letting me go where I want to go.
By nature, we rebel against the concept of God acting out of His own good pleasure, as if He were not even our Creator and the King of kings. Does God bear with you ultimately so that His glory will be made more known? Or, will he yet descend on you in mercy and overtake your lives, ripping you from the grasp your father, who is the father of lies, your master who you unwittingly serve while bragging of freedom?
I have hope for all of you, because I'm a worse man than you, and God has decided to call “my people” those who were not his people (see Hosea 2:23; 1 Peter 2:10). I beg you, do not stumble, do not be offended. Believe in him. My prayers are there, if your heart is not.
 

L Gilbert

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At the end of this conversation, if indeed it is the end, and I hope it is, for I am distressed and perplexed, my most concrete concern is expressed toward God himself, a longing for an answer to the question, why, oh God, won't you save these people, for I compare as the worst among them, the least worthy!? Of all the men and women in this conversation, I am convinced that I am the most wretched, the least worthy, the greatest sinner, the most deserving of hell.
Well, how you feel is up to you.
Why does L Gilbert look at a tree, and remain blind to God?
Because I see no connection. Trees come from older trees. If you follow genetics, researchers can trace genetics back to the simplest and earliest signs of life on the planet by deconstructing DNA. Where did DNA come from? The latest research indicates it came from amino acids and other building blocks of life that landed here on meteorites. It most likely wasn't poofed here by your magician.
Why does he say, “I can't remember any mercy shown to those who crossed [God's] path” when he's engaged in a conversation with me, the unrighteous, to whom God has shown mercy? To David, the murdering adulterer? This David God declared righteous!
I've read parts of the Bible that shows different.
Why do the people in this forum, on the one hand, complain because there are no eyewitnesses declaring the truths of God; then, when we discuss eyewitnesses, a complaint against eyewitness testimony rises?
Well, personally, I mentioned evidence nonspecifically. Eyewitness evidence is unreliable. And besides, the source of all your information is the Bible. It's ludicrous to consider something that supports itself as evidence.
Why are your hearts hardened and determined against God no matter what He presents?
I'm not hardened, just skeptical.
As far as the rest of your post goes, someone else can reply to it if they wish.
 

adopted

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And besides, the source of all your information is the Bible. It's ludicrous to consider something that supports itself as evidence.

Nope. All reliable testimonies support and lend evidence for the Bible. Everything I see in life, in my culture, in history, and in my own life confirm again and again that the Bible is correct and remains to be trusted.
 

Serryah

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I have hope for all of you, because I'm a worse man than you...

Self-esteem issues, I think you have them.

And after all that post, you still don't get a darned thing of what everyone here has replied to you with. But if you wish to be blind, that is, of course, your issue. Just don't ask us to be blind with you.
 

Cliffy

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Nope. All reliable testimonies support and lend evidence for the Bible. Everything I see in life, in my culture, in history, and in my own life confirm again and again that the Bible is correct and remains to be trusted.
It remains trusted to you because you refuse to accept any evidence to the contrary. You remain willfully blind and brag about it. I think you have some issues that are far more serious than low self esteem. If you were a catholic i would say you were Opus Dei, self flagellating and deprecating. Not a pretty sight but it is YOUR choice. No wonder you believe all you deserve is a psychopathic god in your life.

The mistake you make with most of the people on here is you think that their rejection of your vision of god is a denial of god. Half the people you are debating are Christians and you don't even see it. You are the only one with the true vision of god in your mind and that is what makes people like you dangerous. In the US they have another lunatic fringe fundamentalist running for President, and if Santorum ever go into office the US would be plunged into a draconian state of untold pain and suffering that would make the Inquisition look like a picnic.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Of all the men and women in this conversation, I am convinced that I am the most wretched, the least worthy, the greatest sinner, the most deserving of hell.
Well of course, that's what your understanding of your faith tells you about yourself. Can you not see the harm that does to you and those who love you, to have such a low regard for yourself? You've fallen for a perniciously evil fantasy as if it were true. It's not. You're NOT wretched or unworthy or a sinner or deserving of Hell, you're just an ordinary human being like the rest of us, with some talents and strengths and some inabilities and some weaknesses, as much worthy of love and respect as anyone. You're just beating yourself up with this. There are enough jerks in the world to make you feel bad about yourself, don't help them, break away. And read something besides the Bible. You could usefully start with Tom Harpur's book For Christ's Sake, it's a much kinder and gentler take on Christianity than the one you're labouring under.
 

lone wolf

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Guilt and poor self esteem are the weaknesses Churchies harvest to extort worth. Buy your ticket now for the train to Heaven pays great dividends to organized religion - but only causes misery for the suckered in the here and now. Faith in self is faith in the gift God - in whichever form you accept - gave you. An existence awaiting death is Hell