Maryland Abortion Doctors Charged With Murder

bluebyrd35

Council Member
Aug 9, 2008
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You never researched to see if I was right or wrong did you? Do you have any idea what in utero means?

LOL.....do you?? I guess I do, since I was a Med.Secretary for years. I even have a degree from McGill to prove it ......imagine that!!

The problem you have with me, is between farming and years as a medical Secretary in an Emergency Dept. I have had those rose coloured glasses ripped right off my face, and I was definitely not a biblical god fan from about 13 years of age.

There is nothing romantic or sacred in a birth. It is messy, and violent without modern medicine. It should depend on whether or not parents want and voluntarily choose to take on the job of having children. It is unfair to everyone involved if they are not prepared to follow through, otherwise the children especially suffer.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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What Makes Someone Susceptible To Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome?
What is Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome?

Post-abortion stress syndrome, abbreviated as PAS or PASS, is a form of trauma which can occur in a woman after she has had an abortion. It has also been called post-traumatic abortion syndrome. Many women experience brief feelings of sadness or guilt after having an abortion. Women with PASS experience these feelings for a long period of time. These symptoms also often interrupt their everyday lives and can lead to more severe symptoms. This disorder is often compared to post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), a disorder which is often noticed in military veterans. Many symptoms of these two disorders are similar.
The topic of post-abortion stress syndrome brings about great controversy among pro-life and pro-choice groups everywhere. In fact, there is still much debate regarding whether this problem actually exists, as it is not recognized by the American Psychological Association. Some fear this may only be a syndrome invented by pro-life groups in an attempt to hinder further abortions; others claim they themselves have experienced this problem. Still, other groups of people recognize PASS as a problem but believe it is very rare and mention that giving up a child for adoption would seem to be more traumatic than a typical abortion.
Who is susceptible to Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome?

Certain women may be more susceptible to PASS than other women. Women who may be more susceptible to this form of trauma can include:
  • A woman who felt pressured to have an abortion
  • A woman who experienced her abortion after her first trimester passed
  • A woman who did not consider many different choices
  • A woman who has strong religious views
  • A woman who did not have her baby because it would have a birth defect
  • A woman who did not receive counseling after her abortion
  • A woman who has an unstable lifestyle
  • A woman who was not well informed about her abortion
  • A woman who recognizes that a fetus is a human
  • A woman who rushed and did not give her decision much thought
Symptoms of Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome

Effects of PASS are often very difficult to manage and can involve a variety of risky behaviors. Intensity of these symptoms varies from person to person. Symptoms include:
  • Guilty feelings
  • Poor school and work performance
  • Nightmares
  • Thoughts of suicide
  • Sudden phobias (especially of medical buildings)
  • Poor quality of sleep
  • Self-injury
  • Drug and alcohol abuse requiring the help of a drug rehab facility
  • Irritability
  • Feeling of numbness
  • Relationship complications
  • Constant crying
  • Flashbacks
  • Desire to have a child
  • Anxiety
  • Overprotective of future children
  • Depression
  • Inability to function around babies or pregnant women
  • Panic attacks
  • Inability to make decisions
  • Eating disorder requiring eating disorder treatment
Symptoms of PASS may not occur immediately after one has had an abortion. In many cases, numbness will overcome a woman and the feelings of an abortion will be held back for months or even years. Some women however can live their entire lives and feel perfectly fine after having an abortion. Triggers which may initiate PASS in a woman after having an abortion include seeing another pregnant woman, certain smells or sounds, marriage, or the anniversary date of the abortion.
Women who have had an abortion often feel uncomfortable or ashamed to talk about their experience and thus never seek trauma treatment. These women deserve to find recovery, instead of suffering in loneliness. Trauma treatment centers or depression treatment facilities are excellent places to receive trauma therapy and at last find hope and joy in a renewed life.
 

Ariadne

Council Member
Aug 7, 2006
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LOL, very bloody few. It is often those who get talked out of early term abortion that suffer the deep regrets, because they are the ones
who are saddled for life with an unwanted child and little or no support. Oh and what about that unwanted child??

As for that other stupid statement..... In the animal world, too young mothers simply eat their young. Severely,retarded girls certainly can get pregnant and they are certainly not capable of raising them alone. A boy of 13 or 14 can sire children, does that make them perfectly capable of supporting emotionally & physically the girl he impregnated?, never mind those he has sired?

No one is "saddled" with an unwanted child. There are many people that want to adopt chidlren, many couples that pay thousands of dollars for invitro fertilization ... there is a huge industry surrounding producing babies, including medical advances to make 23 week fetuses thrive.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
117,912
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LOL.....do you?? I guess I do, since I was a Med.Secretary for years. I even have a degree from McGill to prove it ......imagine that!!

The problem you have with me, is between farming and years as a medical Secretary in an Emergency Dept. I have had those rose coloured glasses ripped right off my face, and I was definitely not a biblical god fan from about 13 years of age.

There is nothing romantic or sacred in a birth. It is messy, and violent without modern medicine. It should depend on whether or not parents want and voluntarily choose to take on the job of having children. It is unfair to everyone involved if they are not prepared to follow through, otherwise the children especially suffer.
A secretary? WOW!!!!
 

Ariadne

Council Member
Aug 7, 2006
2,432
8
38
LOL.....do you?? I guess I do, since I was a Med.Secretary for years. I even have a degree from McGill to prove it ......imagine that!!

The problem you have with me, is between farming and years as a medical Secretary in an Emergency Dept. I have had those rose coloured glasses ripped right off my face, and I was definitely not a biblical god fan from about 13 years of age.

There is nothing romantic or sacred in a birth. It is messy, and violent without modern medicine. It should depend on whether or not parents want and voluntarily choose to take on the job of having children. It is unfair to everyone involved if they are not prepared to follow through, otherwise the children especially suffer.

Childbirth is violent? That's a new one!

Are you suggesting that women should be allowed to sit around eating bonbons for 8 months, then wake up and decide they don't want to be fat anymore so they can have a 33 week fetus yanked out of them and tossed into the freezer? Isn't there some responsbility on behalf of that pregnant woman to make responsible decisions months earlier?
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
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A secretary? WOW!!!!


I call bullshyte to this to. She/he/it was gang raped, he/she/it had twins in the middle of one of montreals worse winters, prematurely, and she was a medical secretary that worked in an ER. Bullshyte to all of it.



btw...as far as I know, no ER employees a "medical secretary".
 

Ariadne

Council Member
Aug 7, 2006
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Society needs to get out of peoples personal lives. There are many reasons why things go wrong in pregnancy, and late pregnancy. And if it happened to us I couldn't give a crap what you think of if I decide to do something you don't like.

If someone commits murder, society needs to do something to ensure that it doesn't happen again through punishment/rehabilitation. The doctor in question (in the article) appears to be a very shady character and I personally believe that if society doesn't step in, there will be more victims.

Is there any circumstance were abortion at 33 weeks gestation is justified? It's not like tests cannot be performed 20 weeks earlier and results known 17 weeks earlier. Why should women have the right to have all the information they need to make an informed decision, yet to sit around and not make a decision for another 4 months?
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
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The issue my health is none of your business. If you think it is then all women should be quarantined and monitored for one month after sex to ensure they don't endanger a potential baby, then we can enforce a strict diet for the remaining term.
 

bluebyrd35

Council Member
Aug 9, 2008
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36
Ormstown.Chat.Valley
Childbirth is violent? That's a new one!

Are you suggesting that women should be allowed to sit around eating bonbons for 8 months, then wake up and decide they don't want to be fat anymore so they can have a 33 week fetus yanked out of them and tossed into the freezer? Isn't there some responsbility on behalf of that pregnant woman to make responsible decisions months earlier?

It is violent. we have had to put a rope around protruding hooves of a calf more than once and lever it out of the cow when we could not get a vet in time to save them both. Even during normal birthing cows bellow in pain, as do many other species. As for the bonbon remark, well we have progressed somewhat from that belief.

How well educated do you suppose a young, unmarried girl is about amniocentesis? I would say not very well, if she was either too poor or too undeducated to use birthcontrol in the first place. And why do you think even an incompetent abortion dr. simply yanks fetuses out of a woman's body?? How about a bit of reality here. This would kill the woman as well as the fetus.

This sort of simplistic ranting is not conducive to reasonable discussion, anymore a religiously based one is.

"A fetus is viable when it reaches an "anatomical threshold" when critical organs, such as the lungs and kidneys, can sustain independent life. Until the air sacs are mature enough to permit gases to pass into and out of the bloodstream, which is extremely unlikely until at least 23 weeks gestation (from last menstrual period), a fetus cannot be sustained even with a respirator, which can force air into the lungs but cannot pass gas from the lungs into the bloodstream."

There are very few late term abortions done even in Canada where we do not have a law against it. In the US, which does have such a law, it is extremely rare and is an exception. It is more exceptional that a dr. would even consider such a late term abortion. The dr. in this case is clearly incompetent. Did he kill patient undergoing the operation??

To follow this thinking through to it's logical conclusion, if an incompetent dr. killed a person removing a gallstone, should all gallstone operations become illegal and all incompetent drs. charged with murder?? Gee, I guess there would never be another operation done again ever!! There will always be incompetents in all fields, medicine is no exception.
 

Ariadne

Council Member
Aug 7, 2006
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The issue my health is none of your business. If you think it is then all women should be quarantined and monitored for one month after sex to ensure they don't endanger a potential baby, then we can enforce a strict diet for the remaining term.

There's a big difference between expecting women to take responsibility for their pregnancy and quarantining women that have sex.

I'm curious ... under what circumstances is it justifiable for a woman to delay making a decision regarding the termination of a pregnancy for 33 weeks? There are tests available that confirm a pregnancy 3 -5 days after conception. Years ago, it took a month to confirm a pregnancy. The faster tests were obviously developed to provide women with more time to make the important decision ... so why should women still have the option of waiting until after the child is viable, at 33 weeks, to terminate the development ... simply because it is a viable unborn child rather than a viable born child? Women can run international corporations, but when it comes to making a decision about whether they want to raise a child they become braindead? How does that work?

It is violent. we have had to put a rope around protruding hooves of a calf more than once and lever it out of the cow when we could not get a vet in time to save them both. Even during normal birthing cows bellow in pain, as do many other species. As for the bonbon remark, well we have progressed somewhat from that belief.

How well educated do you suppose a young, unmarried girl is about amniocentesis? I would say not very well, if she was either too poor or too undeducated to use birthcontrol in the first place. And why do you think even an incompetent abortion dr. simply yanks fetuses out of a woman's body?? How about a bit of reality here. This would kill the woman as well as the fetus.

This sort of simplistic ranting is not conducive to reasonable discussion, anymore a religiously based one is.

"A fetus is viable when it reaches an "anatomical threshold" when critical organs, such as the lungs and kidneys, can sustain independent life. Until the air sacs are mature enough to permit gases to pass into and out of the bloodstream, which is extremely unlikely until at least 23 weeks gestation (from last menstrual period), a fetus cannot be sustained even with a respirator, which can force air into the lungs but cannot pass gas from the lungs into the bloodstream."

There are very few late term abortions done even in Canada where we do not have a law against it. In the US, which does have such a law, it is extremely rare and is an exception. It is more exceptional that a dr. would even consider such a late term abortion. The dr. in this case is clearly incompetent. Did he kill patient undergoing the operation??

To follow this thinking through to it's logical conclusion, if an incompetent dr. killed a person removing a gallstone, should all gallstone operations become illegal and all incompetent drs. charged with murder?? Gee, I guess there would never be another operation done again ever!! There will always be incompetents in all fields, medicine is no exception.

Fortunately, women are not cows and their offspring aren't calves born in a barn.

Women today deliver their children in many different environments. One of the calmest, easiest environments for delivery is in water. There is no violence in a water birth. Calm mothers have calm births ... hysterical mothers have hysterical births, but not all births are violent by any stretch of the imagination.

It is not only young, unmarried women that have late term abortions. Furthermore, the incidence of fetal abnormalities identified through amniocentesis is relatively low for young, healthy women.

Women have a responsibility in reproduction. If they get pregnant, they are responsible for making the decisions associated with pregnancy in a timely manner. Since all testing regarding abnormalities is available at about 18 weeks gestation, there is no excuse for waiting until 33 weeks ... and there is certainly no excuse for doctors to accommodate women that are so confused about their choice that they allow them to delay making critical decisions until well after the fetus is viable.
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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It doesn't matter what you do Petros, you are NEVER going to convince people who priortise their own selfish interests! :smile:[/QUOTE

Jesus Murphy, the selfish critters are those who insist their will takes priority over the will of others. How many of these selfish critters have actually adopted any of those unwanted in our institutions. Those with the biggest mouths, usually have the least compassion.

Bluebyrd- When you decide to have an abortion, what does the fetus get to decide? and who is acting on his/her behalf?
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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There's a big difference between expecting women to take responsibility for their pregnancy and quarantining women that have sex.

I'm curious ... under what circumstances is it justifiable for a woman to delay making a decision regarding the termination of a pregnancy for 33 weeks? There are tests available that confirm a pregnancy 3 -5 days after conception. Years ago, it took a month to confirm a pregnancy. The faster tests were obviously developed to provide women with more time to make the important decision ... so why should women still have the option of waiting until after the child is viable, at 33 weeks, to terminate the development ... simply because it is a viable unborn child rather than a viable born child? Women can run international corporations, but when it comes to making a decision about whether they want to raise a child they become braindead? How does that work?



Fortunately, women are not cows and their offspring aren't calves born in a barn.

Women today deliver their children in many different environments. One of the calmest, easiest environments for delivery is in water. There is no violence in a water birth. Calm mothers have calm births ... hysterical mothers have hysterical births, but not all births are violent by any stretch of the imagination.

It is not only young, unmarried women that have late term abortions. Furthermore, the incidence of fetal abnormalities identified through amniocentesis is relatively low for young, healthy women.

Women have a responsibility in reproduction. If they get pregnant, they are responsible for making the decisions associated with pregnancy in a timely manner. Since all testing regarding abnormalities is available at about 18 weeks gestation, there is no excuse for waiting until 33 weeks ... and there is certainly no excuse for doctors to accommodate women that are so confused about their choice that they allow them to delay making critical decisions until well after the fetus is viable.
How about she's carrying a baby with Turner's Syndrome and it has no eyes, then her husband and parents died in an auto-accident, plus she has been diagnosed with terminal cancer and she's being evicted and will be living on the street. I'm sure that's not good enough though. However, there is no reason for her to give you her reason because it's none of your business.
 

taxslave

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Nov 25, 2008
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pro lifer is a misnomer. There are very few "pro lifers" but there are a hell of alot of anti abortionists. Just like pro choice is a misnomer. The baby has no choice in the matter.

I'd also like to add, that is it is the baby's who's life is the one that is the most profoundly effected by the "choice" being made.

There is no baby until it is breathing on its own.
 

Ariadne

Council Member
Aug 7, 2006
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How about she's carrying a baby with Turner's Syndrome and it has no eyes, then her husband and parents died in an auto-accident, plus she has been diagnosed with terminal cancer and she's being evicted and will be living on the street. I'm sure that's not good enough though. However, there is no reason for her to give you her reason because it's none of your business.

So we've got an unemployed, homeless, pregnant woman with terminal cancer?

Were these facts suddenly available when she was 33 weeks pregnant, or did she have ample time to put her ducks in order during the pregnancy? I actually don't believe that's possible. Pregnant women have blood tests done at he beginning of the pregnancy for obvious reasons. An abnormal white blood cell count would have been further explored ... so it would not take 33 weeks to identify terminal cancer.
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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How about she's carrying a baby with Turner's Syndrome and it has no eyes, then her husband and parents died in an auto-accident, plus she has been diagnosed with terminal cancer and she's being evicted and will be living on the street. I'm sure that's not good enough though. However, there is no reason for her to give you her reason because it's none of your business.

And if your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle! :smile:

LOL, very bloody few. It is often those who get talked out of early term abortion that suffer the deep regrets, because they are the ones
who are saddled for life with an unwanted child and little or no support. Oh and what about that unwanted child??

As for that other stupid statement..... In the animal world, too young mothers simply eat their young. Severely,retarded girls certainly can get pregnant and they are certainly not capable of raising them alone. A boy of 13 or 14 can sire children, does that make them perfectly capable of supporting emotionally & physically the girl he impregnated?, never mind those he has sired?

With so many people who can't have children desperately wanting to adopt, that argument doesn't fly. :smile:
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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You are just reasserting yourself instead of adding anything to the debate. Listen to the video again, pick its argument apart bit and bit and tell us how each point it makes is incorrect. S - L - E - D
Not going to bother. The guy has some points, I expect, but I'd much rather read stuff than try to catch it off a vid. If you have a written transcript of it, I'll happily analyse it.

So what gives anyone the right to sentence an unborn child to death to save the mother "inconvenience"?
I asked you first. And I'll add - since when is the death of a mother a mere "inconvenience" to her?
And what gives anyone the right to sentence a human being to death because we "think" it will have a life filled with pain and misery?
Sorry, dude but a kid with anencephaly, Trisomy 18, Tay Sachs, Spina Bifida, Muscular Dystrophy, and a variety of other afflictions WILL suffer through its short life.

Down Syndrome people overwhelmingly tell us they are happy, yet thousands possibly millions of them are murdered in the womb because we put no value on a Down Syndrome life. Sad.
I agree.

Then there's always the children of rape victims. I cannot imagine a rape victim caring much for a child born through rape. But, that's not in my list of reasons for abortion, because there's always adoption.

And that brings something to mind: you assume to know what my stance on abortion is before you bother to find out the parameters of my stance. That's extremely presumptuous and irrational.

There's an exception to every rule and that one I agree with................save the mother.

In many cases (with advances in medicine) we don't know how long a child will survive and the intensity of pain and misery!
I agre4e that it's hard to pin down the longevity of a person, but we DO know how much suffering can be involved with things like Spina Bifida, Muscular Dystrophy, Annecephaly, Cystic Fibrosis, etc. and we DO know these patients don't last as long as the norm.