Canadian seal cull 'unnecessary due to climate change'

Niflmir

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Dec 18, 2006
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The whaleing industry has a lot to do with why you dont see as many south anymore.More Belugas=more killer whales= less predation on seals,couple years and it starts to balance out again.The seals dont have killer whales eating them they will populate like rabbits who are also cyclical.

Climate change-there is an ice age coming and theres nothing you or anyone alive can do about it.

I don't follow the whole more belugas = more killer whales = less predation on seals. Is that a typo? I know killer whales are natural predators for seals, so how would more of them be less predation? Also, why the belugas? Do killer whales prey on belugas?
 

Tonington

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The whaleing industry has a lot to do with why you dont see as many south anymore.More Belugas=more killer whales= less predation on seals,couple years and it starts to balance out again.

Couple years? How many years? You're blowing a whole lotta steam. Try posting something to back up this nonsense about cyclical signals in the harp seal population.

Climate change-there is an ice age coming and theres nothing you or anyone alive can do about it.

When can we expect to see the ice growing then Kakato? Where's the negative forcing coming from, and of what magnitude will it be? You're out of your depth here.

I don't follow the whole more belugas = more killer whales = less predation on seals. Is that a typo? I know killer whales are natural predators for seals, so how would more of them be less predation? Also, why the belugas? Do killer whales prey on belugas?

He's implying that an Orca would preferentially predate on belugas over seals, given the opportunity.
 

Kakato

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I don't follow the whole more belugas = more killer whales = less predation on seals. Is that a typo? I know killer whales are natural predators for seals, so how would more of them be less predation? Also, why the belugas? Do killer whales prey on belugas?
Yes,they feed on Belugas by head butting them.When the killer whales used to cruise by my shack in the Arctic the belugas would head for shore and the seals would head for high ground.Quite a sight to see.
All animals are cyclical,thats not rocket science.
Thats nature.
 

Kakato

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Ah, thanks for the pointer. I'll look into that.
I was about 30 miles north of Rankin inlet where I could watch the whales,north of the haunted and cursed turtle island.
When the ice would melt on hudsons bay in june the polar bears would start trekking north feeding on the dead belugas that washed up on the beaches.
 

Niflmir

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I was about 30 miles north of Rankin inlet where I could watch the whales,north of the haunted and cursed turtle island.
When the ice would melt on hudsons bay in june the polar bears would start trekking north feeding on the dead belugas that washed up on the beaches.

I lived in Rankin Inlet--sadly, when I was too young to have a memory.

Back on topic, I really think that the appeal to emotion of putting pictures of cute seals up does more harm than good. Since it is a clearly transparent non-rational tactic that will just lead proponents of the seal hunt to consider opponents to be uninformed seal huggers.

Maybe the seal hunt is a bad idea. But I can't see a coherent argument amidst all the baby seal pictures.
 

Tonington

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All animals are cyclical,thats not rocket science.

Not all animals have cycles in their population. That's biology. Lemmings of course have very predictable cycles. You're mistaken if you believe that all animals have predictable population cycles as the lemmings do.

Here's a DFO figure of the Northwest Atlantic harp seal population, there's no predictable pattern in this population at all:


Thats nature.

No, that's a faulty assumption based on an ignorance of biology and ecology.

Here's what actual population cycles look like:



And here's your lemmings and stoats:


Quite different from the harp seal population.
 

Kakato

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Were not culling hare,lemmings or stoats though.
I find in the bush if the conditions are swell all animals will have more offspring no matter what type of animal they are,so if we stopped culling the seals and the population flourished you can bet their predators will also flourish.So Orca populations rise and seals slowly decline,thats your cycle.
When you wipe out a huge number of seals surely your disrupting an item on the menu of the food chain dont you agree?
 

Tonington

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Were not culling hare,lemmings or stoats though.

I never said we were. Those are just the examples of population cycles.

I find in the bush if the conditions are swell all animals will have more offspring no matter what type of animal they are,so if we stopped culling the seals and the population flourished you can bet their predators will also flourish.

Are you daft? The seal population has been climbing for quite some time. The predators aren't doing anything. In fact the graph I posted would include multiple generations without any accompanying shift. It's not as simple as you are stating at all.

So Orca populations rise and seals slowly decline,thats your cycle.

The problem you're having is that you seem utterly flabbergasted by the notion that there are multiple factors involved. Predators, resources, environment, many many factors. We've already addressed the fact that humans culling seals will disrupt nature. Well humans are disrupting entire food webs, and you can't seem to grasp the implications this has on things like the population of one animal.

When you wipe out a huge number of seals surely your disrupting an item on the menu of the food chain dont you agree?

We've been over this already.
 

Cliffy

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Commercial fishing has decimated shark and other predator populations. The rise of seal populations corresponds with that quite nicely. Like accelerated climate change, human activity is having a detrimental effect. Soon (probably within a century or so) the oceans could be all but dead and life on terra firma may not be doing so well either. Time to stop arguing over semantics and buckle down to taking care of the Earth. It is the only home we have.
 

Tonington

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It's not semantics when someone get's the ecology wrong. Besides, science is all about semantics, it's not a casual wave of the hand when someone gets the meaning wrong. Words have precise meanings and they need to be used precisely.
 

Cliffy

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It's not semantics when someone get's the ecology wrong. Besides, science is all about semantics, it's not a casual wave of the hand when someone gets the meaning wrong. Words have precise meanings and they need to be used precisely.
I understand that but arguing is a diversion from doing what needs to be done. It is what we do best: procrastinate.
 

Kakato

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It's not semantics when someone get's the ecology wrong. Besides, science is all about semantics, it's not a casual wave of the hand when someone gets the meaning wrong. Words have precise meanings and they need to be used precisely.

Well if man has to continually harvest the hell out of one species then I have to ask who has the ecology wrong?
I like my sealskin mitts as much as the next kablunak but I didnt get them for a fashion statement.
 

Niflmir

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Actually, I'd like to see the orca and shark population time series superimposed over the seals. Anyone have that? Would be interesting to see seals vs. cod as well.
 

MHz

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Well if man has to continually harvest the hell out of one species then I have to ask who has the ecology wrong?
I like my sealskin mitts as much as the next kablunak but I didnt get them for a fashion statement.
You could trim back so just the snot-wiper is sealskin. Farming nature is the best solution to world hunger, would America have beem better off harvesting Buffalo instead of switching to cattle?
The Grand Banks could still be productive if a feeding program was implemented when their numbers first started to decline. Science just had to determine what grain/plant best meets that feeding needs.
If we were really all that eco concerned we would be trying to put Canada back to the way it was when the fur traders first arrived. Using a series of shallow dams is still the best way to stop erosion along a running water areas. Sooner or later that 'pond' becomes a 'pasture'. That form of perma-culture is also being used to help retain water along streams is desert areas that suffer from flash floods. The 'man-made' low dams help retain water and once grass and trees take hold the area holds back even more water when it falls as rain and flash floods are a thing of the past for that area. Visable progress is measured in decades but it still is progress and once started it is almost self sustaining.

If we can farm cows we should be able to farm seals, we just have to make sure more are born than we harvest and in that harvest the whole animal is utilized so seal-jerky might get popular for the crowd doing a weekend camping trip and wanting to travel light. Their fat might be just the thing many uses, like WD-40 in a crayon like disperser to the formula for a better ski-wax. Harvest could be done by wandering around the herds while they were on shore and attaching a 'collar' that could be remotely activated so on harvest day all the ones marked could be killed and the ones left alive would flea the area making the gathering much easier, the ones swimming would float hopefully. The remote locations would point to the catch being frozen on site to retard rotting but all in all a 'busy farm' should process at least as much as any slaughter house running today and with seals you only need to feed them, pellets would be great as growing fish has it's own costs like making sure the overcrowding is offset by adding O2 to the water.

Actually, I'd like to see the orca and shark population time series superimposed over the seals. Anyone have that? Would be interesting to see seals vs. cod as well.
You have to give them something to eat.
 

Kakato

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Heh,believe it or not but faux fur works better then real fur for a snot wiper,with sealskin you would just smear it all over your face.
The us army extreme weather mitts had the faux fur on them,your fingers would freeze but at least you could get the snotsicles off before they got too big.
 

earth_as_one

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25 years ago I legally hunted seals when I lived in Churchill Manitoba to help a friend feed his sled dogs. The skins went to the local Inuit center where they were turned into clothing.

I don't hunt or trap anymore, because I don't have the heart for killing. I take pictures instead. But I understand why people hunt and trap and I support a science based approach to managing our natural resources. I also support the protection of threatened species. As far as I know, all hunted seals species in Canada are abundant.
 
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MHz

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I support a science based approach to managing our natural resources.
Would you pay a higher power bill so the lands on the Peace River that no longer get flooded because of an upstream dam get flooded during the winter months when water flow is high than it would be in a normal flow pattern. A series of such dams could flood many floodplains that no longer see such floods. It would refill many waterholes used by waterfowl, another resourse that has it's value in tourism and pictures rather than as a crop to harvest although waterfowl may end up being 'crop' that comes to their own slaughter by just throwing a few seeds on the ground. By rights if the lemmings that go over cliffs are healthy they should be netted and frozen and sold as a food product to the locals as well as to tourists. Today who benefits except a few fish and a few crabs? If there is no demand for lemming kabobs and almost ready-made mittens today, a marketing firm could turn that around in just a few years.
Today we take extreme measures to stop anything that will change the natural environment. The same group that sunk how many ships loaded with toxic loads of war equipment onto the same ground fishing trawlers from every nation in the world sailed after the wars ended? The fish processing houses should now be working as hatcheries and feeding stations so the 'new crop' can grow at maximum speed. Frank;y I don't see that ever happening because, more than anything else, it doesn't benefit this generation .
 

Kakato

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25 years ago I legally hunted seals when I lived in Churchill Manitoba to help a friend feed his sled dogs. The skins went to the local Inuit center where they were turned into clothing.

I don't hunt or trap anymore, because I don't have the heart for killing. I take pictures instead. But I understand why people hunt and trap and I support a science based approach to managing our natural resources. I also support the protection of threatened species. As far as I know, all hunted seals species in Canada are abundant.

Right on,I do all my hunting with a camera now.