Solution to gas hikes?

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
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Its a little off the topic of the thread but since some seem to want to discuss taxes on here lets take a look at them.

Before the introduction of income tax the govt generated 95% of its revenues from customs & excise taxes (including sales tax and various surcharges). After the introduction of the personal income tax (and the war effort was paid for) the govt still got 90% of its revenue from C&E. It was right around this time that some businessmen realized that they could donate to (buy) the politicians and exert influence over policy. Within a few years and at the cost of about $1 million to businesses through donations and lobby the C&E taxes were reduced and the personal income tax was increased so the govt revenues were now derived at about 70/30. It did not take long for business to realize how much they had to gain from further lobbying and corporate donations so the level of businesses interfering with the government of the people was increased even more and steadily the ratio changed until around the 70's when it was about 60/40. This is really when the corporate mentality really took over and millions each year were spent to influence politicians and policy including such things as free trade and corporate subsidies. By the year 2000 and at a cost of over $1 billion in the last 20 years the Candian govt revenues reached a ratio of 5/95 and have remained close to that since with no signs of changing. So here we are with the people, who are supposed to be represented by the govt, bearing 95% of the burden and the businesses, who don't have a vote, paying only 5% of the cost of running our country.

So if you all want to talk about tax policy start with some major reforms to shift the burden back where it started and quit arguing over a few bucks here and there. It is the taxation of commerce that paid to run the world for hundreds of years and in less than 1 century 95% of the burden has shifted to individuals and allowed for record profits to become the norm of the day while more and more people and families move into poverty or struggle to make ends meet.
 

Durry

House Member
May 18, 2010
4,709
286
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Canada
Well considering a Litre of gas is about the same price as a Litre of mike and cheaper than a Litre of bottled water, I'm not concerned about the current price of gas.

My biggest concern is the price of Starbucks coffee.
How dare the Americans charge us what they do at Starbucks.
Just look what coffee costs at Timmies.
We are being ripped off big time by Stabucks.

I demand Harper reconvine Parliament to deal with Starbucks. I know he will get a lot of support from the new NDs and floundering Libs, and lets get this issue resolved. I need lower Starbuck prices. Let's not take that crap from the Americans lying down,,eh!! I know you easterners will support this initiative, because it's against the Americans,,,eh!!!

Heh heh heh!!!
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
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A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
Its a little off the topic of the thread but since some seem to want to discuss taxes on here lets take a look at them.

Before the introduction of income tax the govt generated 95% of its revenues from customs & excise taxes (including sales tax and various surcharges). After the introduction of the personal income tax (and the war effort was paid for) the govt still got 90% of its revenue from C&E. It was right around this time that some businessmen realized that they could donate to (buy) the politicians and exert influence over policy. Within a few years and at the cost of about $1 million to businesses through donations and lobby the C&E taxes were reduced and the personal income tax was increased so the govt revenues were now derived at about 70/30. It did not take long for business to realize how much they had to gain from further lobbying and corporate donations so the level of businesses interfering with the government of the people was increased even more and steadily the ratio changed until around the 70's when it was about 60/40. This is really when the corporate mentality really took over and millions each year were spent to influence politicians and policy including such things as free trade and corporate subsidies. By the year 2000 and at a cost of over $1 billion in the last 20 years the Candian govt revenues reached a ratio of 5/95 and have remained close to that since with no signs of changing. So here we are with the people, who are supposed to be represented by the govt, bearing 95% of the burden and the businesses, who don't have a vote, paying only 5% of the cost of running our country.

So if you all want to talk about tax policy start with some major reforms to shift the burden back where it started and quit arguing over a few bucks here and there. It is the taxation of commerce that paid to run the world for hundreds of years and in less than 1 century 95% of the burden has shifted to individuals and allowed for record profits to become the norm of the day while more and more people and families move into poverty or struggle to make ends meet.


Geee.... No mention of the insatiable demand of the public's consumption of State supported goodies?... It's exclusively the impact of corporate greed, right?

Well considering a Litre of gas is about the same price as a Litre of mike and cheaper than a Litre of bottled water, I'm not concerned about the current price of gas.

My biggest concern is the price of Starbucks coffee.
How dare the Americans charge us what they do at Starbucks.
Just look what coffee costs at Timmies.
We are being ripped off big time by Stabucks.

I demand Harper reconvine Parliament to deal with Starbucks. I know he will get a lot of support from the new NDs and floundering Libs, and lets get this issue resolved. I need lower Starbuck prices. Let's not take that crap from the Americans lying down,,eh!! I know you easterners will support this initiative, because it's against the Americans,,,eh!!!

Heh heh heh!!!

Kudos!
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
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Edson, AB
Geee.... No mention of the insatiable demand of the public's consumption of State supported goodies?... It's exclusively the impact of corporate greed, right?

There are other factors like you mention but I am not talking about the amount of revenue required. I am pointing out how the burden of taxation has changed for 95/5 to 5/95 mostly because our govt now spends more time on representing business's interests than it does people's interests. For hundreds of years it was the taxation of commerce that funded countries, the entire British empire was built on taxing commerce not individuals, so was Rome, the Persians and most others.

Please do enlighten me as to what 'goodies' I get from the govt you think are the cause of this massive shift.
 

Angstrom

Hall of Fame Member
May 8, 2011
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PoliticalNick;Please do enlighten me as to what 'goodies' I get from the govt you think are the cause of this massive shift.[/QUOTE said:
He must be from Quebec.........

Ha! bingo =)
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
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There are other factors like you mention but I am not talking about the amount of revenue required. I am pointing out how the burden of taxation has changed for 95/5 to 5/95 mostly because our govt now spends more time on representing business's interests than it does people's interests. For hundreds of years it was the taxation of commerce that funded countries, the entire British empire was built on taxing commerce not individuals, so was Rome, the Persians and most others.

Please do enlighten me as to what 'goodies' I get from the govt you think are the cause of this massive shift.

Where to start?

Gvt represents corps because they are the source of the tax dollars that fuel the system. Without exception, every business entity in Canada has a silent partner that does not contribute directly to the operations of that business... Can you guess who this silent partner is?

In terms of the goodies that I was am referring to, well, maybe you've heard of EI, healthcare, education, law enforcement, the military, the legal system... You know, those small things.
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
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Edson, AB
Where to start?

Gvt represents corps because they are the source of the tax dollars that fuel the system. Without exception, every business entity in Canada has a silent partner that does not contribute directly to the operations of that business... Can you guess who this silent partner is?
As already stated they contribute about 5-10% of total tax revenues, that is hardly the source that fuels the system.

In terms of the goodies that I was am referring to, well, maybe you've heard of EI, healthcare, education, law enforcement, the military, the legal system... You know, those small things.
Hmmm, I have had 2 EI claims in my 30 years of adult life and 1 only lasted 3 weeks, I got 1 weeks benefit. Healthcare and education have been declared as basic human rights but even so I rarely go to a doctor and pay so many fees to my kids school I might as well go private, I also worked my way through university so I didn't get any goodies there either. The military, well if we weren't involved in policing the world at the behest of the US and Nato we wouldn't spend much on defense. I live an honest life and other than a couple of tickets have never had any issues with the law. I am also quite capable of protecting my family and property so law enforcement doesn't mean much to me. That leaves the legal system, I have sued one person, it cost me $200 to file and another $750 for legal advice and when I won they tacked on 'court costs' to the defendant to be paid to the court so once again I didn't get any goodies or freebies. About the only thing provided by the govt I use regularly is the roads and I pay my share for them through multiple taxes.

Now I am not saying there aren't many people who use the system much more than I have and some that milk it for everything they can but that is what we as Canadians have chosen as a socially resposible society.

Oh, and I would suggest you read the constitution and see just who govt is supposed to represent. They are called voters and businesses and corps don't vote.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
30,465
11,204
113
Regina, Saskatchewan
I was on the highway last week, running out a part (fuel pump for a Loader), and
I filled up right before leaving town, and shortly after I got back. Gas at that point
(for Regular) was still only 131.9/Litre. It's jumped up $0.05/Litre this morning as
a barrel of oil went down $5.00/Barrel...

It cost me $23.02 to travel 232km's....and that was with the sun roof open, and still
had my aggressive winter tires on, using the cruise control set at 110km/h except
when I was passing people.

I figure it costs me $0.10/km on the highway as of last week. Fuel has gone up, but
I'll pick up a couple MPG when I toss on the summer tires. In town I use a 1/4 tank
per week. This on top of the insurance is quite do-able, but I can understand the
squeeze many folks are in with the rising cost of fuel.

Not everyone can just park & walk, or just bike, or take the bus. It's just not realistic
for many folks. Where I live, there are no busses after midnight, or on holidays, &
shortened running times along with once an hour on Sundays. Those who state,
"Just quite your job and work closer to home, or from home!", etc....just aren't
facing the same realities that many are forced to face.

The "one day boycott" thing is a joke. It's ineffective at best, as the person doing
the "one day boycott" thing isn't going to use any less fuel even over the short term,
let alone the long term, and this might even become a B.S. justification for another
bump up in prices, beyond some Sheik having a sniffle, or flooding in Florida, or
whatever.....

I work in the patch in S.E. Saskatchewan (not directly for an oil company, but we're
tied into the industry), and I live a few KM's from a refinery, so the "Rack Price" thing
seems even more ludicrous knowing that the fuel used here locally isn't coming from
more than a maximum of three hours from my living room. I don't have a solution,
beyond just a rant, and a vague idea about collusion & racketeering by the oil
industry being seriously investigated.

If every gas station (or damn near every gas station) in the same city, regardless of
banner it flies, all jump their $/Litre by the same amount overnight, it's not a coincidence.

Check it out: http://www.reginagasprices.com/GasPriceSearch.aspx
 
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captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
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As already stated they contribute about 5-10% of total tax revenues, that is hardly the source that fuels the system.

I don't believe that for a minute... None the less, who writes your pay cheque Nick? Where do you think that the money comes from? The point being, even if the bulk of taxes come from income taxes from the population at large, the money originates from the private sector employers.

This is why your socialist rant has no legs... You are welcome to split-out GST,HST,PST, licenses, royalties, etc - the bottom line is that all of those funds originate from private sector sources... Impact the source and you impact all others.

Hmmm, I have had 2 EI claims in my 30 years of adult life and 1 only lasted 3 weeks, I got 1 weeks benefit. Healthcare and education have been declared as basic human rights but even so I rarely go to a doctor and pay so many fees to my kids school I might as well go private, I also worked my way through university so I didn't get any goodies there either. The military, well if we weren't involved in policing the world at the behest of the US and Nato we wouldn't spend much on defense. I live an honest life and other than a couple of tickets have never had any issues with the law. I am also quite capable of protecting my family and property so law enforcement doesn't mean much to me. That leaves the legal system, I have sued one person, it cost me $200 to file and another $750 for legal advice and when I won they tacked on 'court costs' to the defendant to be paid to the court so once again I didn't get any goodies or freebies. About the only thing provided by the govt I use regularly is the roads and I pay my share for them through multiple taxes.


  1. I don't care what your personal EI experiences are, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
  2. You can piss and moan about basic human rights to education and healthcare, they still cost 10's or possibly 100's of billions per year in this nation. BTW - see how far the "basic human rights" argument takes you when there is no cash to pay the piper.
  3. Military exists with, or without your benevolent permission.
  4. Same for the police.
  5. I really like the myopic comment you offer about the legal system... Again, you can't see past your nose on this issue. The "costs" you quoted don't come anywhere near the actual cost of having your suit heard and adjudicated, yet you purposely ignore this reality as it may not be parallel with your (above) logic.


Oh, and I would suggest you read the constitution and see just who govt is supposed to represent. They are called voters and businesses and corps don't vote.

What a sad little diversion. Here's the 411 for ya: Corporations are entities recognized by the laws that are governed by the Charter, but more importantly, they are comprised of individuals that vote and deserve the same rights as selfish folks like yourself.
 

Angstrom

Hall of Fame Member
May 8, 2011
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"the money originates from the private sector employers."

That but also.

The more we tax company's the more products or service cost climb.
they just add in the tax as "cost of doing business".
It ends up being we that pay the tax Anyways.

****!!!

I hate when a corporation pull out its Trump card
I bet a fairy drops dead every time ; ;
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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49° 19' N, 123° 4' W
The solution to gas hikes is to quit obsessing over the price. If you need gas, you need gas. Your going to fill up regardless so why bother fretting over something you can't control.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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One solution is to limit driving to long distance trips and walk any distances of 5 miles or less.

The solution to gas hikes is to quit obsessing over the price. If you need gas, you need gas. Your going to fill up regardless so why bother fretting over something you can't control.

There may be one slight problem with what you suggest..................................................money! :smile:
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
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"the money originates from the private sector employers."

That but also.

The more we tax company's the more products or service cost climb.
they just add in the tax as "cost of doing business".
It ends up being we that pay the tax Anyways.

****!!!

I hate when a corporation pull out its Trump card
I bet a fairy drops dead every time ; ;


Too true and it applies equally to all products and services that we consume... That is the reality of the world that we live in.
 

cranky

Time Out
Apr 17, 2011
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well something stinks.

I can go to 10 stores, and find 8 different prices for a can of coca cola.

Why can't I find a different price for gas at every store?
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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49° 19' N, 123° 4' W
well something stinks.

I can go to 10 stores, and find 8 different prices for a can of coca cola.

Why can't I find a different price for gas at every store?

Because the gas stations send an employee to check on their local competitor's prices usually twice a day, and they constantly fix the price to match each other. Chevron down the street lowers their price, so Shell lowers their price etc.
 

cranky

Time Out
Apr 17, 2011
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Because the gas stations send an employee to check on their local competitor's prices usually twice a day, and they constantly fix the price to match each other. Chevron down the street lowers their price, so Shell lowers their price etc.

you really think the individual owners are that consistant? imo, if the individual owners controled their prices at the pump, then we would have seen at least one of them blink, and try to capture more sales by keeping their prices 1 or 2 cents per liter cheaper than the guy down the street. yet, this never happens.
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
10,385
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Toronto
As for the tax question, the more gas is taxed, the more we can reduce income tax ;)

Now that is a pipedream if I've ever heard of one. Government's rarely rescind or lower taxes, they're addicted to the revenue it brings in.

Because the gas stations send an employee to check on their local competitor's prices usually twice a day, and they constantly fix the price to match each other. Chevron down the street lowers their price, so Shell lowers their price etc.

Are you serious? I'm fairly certain the prices are set by head office.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
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In the bush near Sudbury
you really think the individual owners are that consistant? imo, if the individual owners controled their prices at the pump, then we would have seen at least one of them blink, and try to capture more sales by keeping their prices 1 or 2 cents per liter cheaper than the guy down the street. yet, this never happens.
Locally? I sure have.... Cabbie's got to get it where he can - and ol' Willie paid well to be the cheapest gas in town...
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
4,597
46
48
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49° 19' N, 123° 4' W
you really think the individual owners are that consistant? imo, if the individual owners controled their prices at the pump, then we would have seen at least one of them blink, and try to capture more sales by keeping their prices 1 or 2 cents per liter cheaper than the guy down the street. yet, this never happens.

It's not exactly the individual owners who set the price. The individual owners report their local competitor's price to head office through a automated telephone system. The system calls them back shortly after analyzing the data and tells the individual owner what to set the price at. Prices are usually checked twice a day, everyday. They are very consistent and that's why it seems like they never blink.

They don't want the price to be 1 - 2 cents per litre cheaper because that can trigger a gas war, where the prices spiral and they actually lose profit at the local level.
 
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