Some spiritual observations

[pastafarian]

If one believes that their belief in God is strong enough, their prayer and belief will likewise heal them.

It seems that everyone agrees that at least some beliefs help people recover from some things.God is optional, though, since the belief does not have to be in a God. In fact, belief in any one thing is optional since placebos that people know are placebos work. So what is healing the person? Let's use what we've covered in this thread and what we know:

It is not belief, since that has shown not to be required. Prayer sometimes works and sometimes doesn't and healing can take place without prayer. We all know that thousand of people, religious and not (mostly religious) die of diseases every day. We do know that outcomes for many things are improved by medical treatment, at levels far above those observed with placebo effects.

I'd say we don't really know.

 

[gerryh]

HAHAHAHAHAHA ummm good point :smile:

Why should I spoon feed you on this , I am sure you are very well aware of your style and standards

Still trollin I see.... whatsa matter barty, peacearch too dead for ya?

 

[karrie]

Not posting about Lent isn't about not being willing to debate it, it's about knowing that you won't be able to have the discussion you're attempting to have with people, because others will highjack it for a side debate about the validity of religion. It always goes something like this....

"What are you giving up for Lent?"

"Religion is stupid and Catholics are pedophiles."

It's not a matter of avoidance, it's a matter of being sick of the predictable and pointless. It makes the atheists that routinely do it look like a bunch of intellectually devoid zealots, much like idiocy like this thread makes the religious look like fire and brimstone chugging lunatics.

 

[CDNBear]

It's not a matter of avoidance, it's a matter of being sick of the predictable and stupid.

fify.

 

[Unforgiven]

I'll take up your challenge.

The spirit is a wondrous and powerful thing. It has the power to heal. If one believes strongly enough that the pill the Doctor proscribes, even if it is just sugar, it may likely do the trick.

If one believes that their belief in God is strong enough, their prayer and belief will likewise heal them.


There are examples confirming that both have actually had success.

Hmmm not is all cases. But there is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence showing where a positive attitude and action can go a long way in helping the body heal itself. I suppose that if you never felt one way or the other about it, somethings the body would deal with anyway. I would suggest that being positive leads to beneficial action to support the healing which may make a difference.

 

[CDNBear]

Hmmm not is all cases. But there is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence showing where a positive attitude and action can go a long way in helping the body heal itself. I suppose that if you never felt one way or the other about it, somethings the body would deal with anyway. I would suggest that being positive leads to beneficial action to support the healing which may make a difference.

I agree, which leads me to say, one man silly religion, is anothers positive belief.

 

[DaSleeper]

It doesn't hurt to hedge your bet.....
That's why I say after an illness...."Thank God ...and the pills"

 

[gerryh]

I agree, which leads me to say, one man silly religion, is anothers positive belief.

Nope, not possible. Not scientifically supported. ALL religious beliefs are silly. Ask the almighty and all knowing dexter, he'll tell ya.

 

[Unforgiven]

I agree, which leads me to say, one man silly religion, is anothers positive belief.

Less all the dogma. There is more to it than just praying though. Pray all you want but the cut artery is going to bleed you out. Believing that you're going to live if you can get to the hospital without too much blood loss, leading you to put pressure on the wound and making for the hospital as fast as you can, is different.

 

[CDNBear]

Less all the dogma.

You haven't missed all my rhetoric about organized religion have you?

There is more to it than just praying though.

I agree, which is where "belief" comes into play.

Pray all you want but the cut artery is going to bleed you out. Believing that you're going to live if you can get to the hospital without too much blood loss, leading you to put pressure on the wound and making for the hospital as fast as you can, is different.

I should be dead Unf.

I spent 45 minutes in Lake Simcoe in February.

I didn't pray, but I have a firm belief in survival. Even though I was minutes away from expiring when I was rescued.

Nope, not possible. Not scientifically supported. ALL religious beliefs are silly. Ask the almighty and all knowing dexter, he'll tell ya.

I just had a sargasm!

 

[talloola]

Not posting about Lent isn't about not being willing to debate it, it's about knowing that you won't be able to have the discussion you're attempting to have with people, because others will highjack it for a side debate about the validity of religion. It always goes something like this....

"What are you giving up for Lent?"

"Religion is stupid and Catholics are pedophiles."

It's not a matter of avoidance, it's a matter of being sick of the predictable and pointless. It makes the atheists that routinely do it look like a bunch of intellectually devoid zealots, much like idiocy like this thread makes the religious look like fire and brimstone chugging lunatics.

I agree with you, not to start up threads about lent etc., just as I think atheists shouldn't start up
threads about what they think about religion.
This forum, and I imagine most like this one have all types, and many are just looking for something
to fight about.

I think if you want to talk about lent with those who would share a good conversation with you, you
should go to a forum strictly for religious purposes, because as you say, you will get nowhere here.

And, by the way, I, as a catholic for many years, practiced lent, and the only thing I thought about
it, was missing the foods I wanted, and I wanted them more when I couldn't have them, and couldn't
relate to any good reason to be denied them.

I know I am repeating myself, but I will anyway, my daughter is a big part of a religion forum, and
no one can come into that forum to argue, ask questions yes, discuss what they have in common, yes,
make suggestions yes, but anyone who ever came in and started to do what many do on this forum, would
be shown the door, fast.

And, after saying that, I don't think anyone on this form should be banned from saying whatever is on
their mind, it is an open forum, and when the religious start up, 'THEY KNOW', they will get smacked
back, and I think they want to have that sort of fight, or they wouldn't come here in the first place.
I think they love it.(and the mods are here to keep it as sane as they are able.)

At least thats how I see it.

 

[Corduroy]

Well, I might have been tempted to make a joke in a thread about Lent, but I'm not sure what it would have been. It would been like "I'm giving up [something silly]" I can't think of anything funny right now and I think I have some kind of record around here for not being mean-spirited? I try.

I'll take up your challenge.

The spirit is a wondrous and powerful thing. It has the power to heal. If one believes strongly enough that the pill the Doctor proscribes, even if it is just sugar, it may likely do the trick.

If one believes that their belief in God is strong enough, their prayer and belief will likewise heal them.


There are examples confirming that both have actually had success.

Awesome, but we couldn't have much of debate about this post because, if I understand it correctly, I'm pretty sure I agree with you. In fact, I've said similar things earlier in this thread, have I not?

 

[pastafarian]

I think that it's quite possible to have reasonable, productive discussions with people who disagree about things. let's take Lent as an example. I've made it clear where I stand on the "God" idea, but for me, that is a different discussion than a discussion that tries to make people's beliefs a way to judge their character or their intelligence. When I was an Anglican, we observed Lent, but never really gave anything serious up, maybe chocolates or light beer or something. But while my mate was a Baha'i, I would support her by joining the 19-day fast (I forget the name), which is like a mini version of the 40-day Muslim fast. I think the spiritual discipline of practices like this are very good. They make you appreciate what you have, test the mettle of your commitment to your faith and feel empathy for that large proportion of humanity who don't have the means to "cheat". Is that insulting because I don't tie the discipline to a set of religious beliefs? I like to think not and I like to think that there are many spiritual practices that are good, in and of themselves, but it's not the place of the person making the statements to say whether others shiould or should not feel insulted by them. Anyway, that my $ 0.02.

 

[karrie]

I didn't give up anything for a long time, because typically there was always a benefit to giving something up, be it calories (chocolate) or time with the family (tv). Last year I started observing lent again when I gave up the internet for everything but the french english dictionary to help my kids with school, and the recipe sites to find new supper ideas. No benefit to me but to have more instrospective time.

This year I've given up alcohol... my only significant source of pain relief from my fibromyalgia, and my main vice. There will really be no benefit to doing so, and the result has been a lot more pain than I'm used to having to deal with.

Incidentally, one of the atheists I talk the most with IRL, also observes lent as a test of will and a way of keeping in touch with her heritage.

 

[eanassir]

It is promised: "Seek and ye shall find, ask and ye shall receive." If you seek and you are misguided or you ask and you are lied to by god, then you are not dealing with god at all, you are dealing with an impostor.

Asking of God by prayer should be with supplication, not by ordering or commanding.

God cannot be obliged to answer the prayer; He answers if He please.

The idols and saints will not respond to the prayer of disbelievers; as in the Quran 13: 14
لَهُ دَعْوَةُ الْحَقِّ وَالَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِهِ لاَ يَسْتَجِيبُونَ لَهُم بِشَيْءٍ إِلاَّ كَبَاسِطِ كَفَّيْهِ إِلَى الْمَاء لِيَبْلُغَ فَاهُ وَمَا هُوَ بِبَالِغِهِ وَمَا دُعَاء الْكَافِرِينَ إِلاَّ فِي ضَلاَلٍ

The explanation:
(His [preaching] is the preaching of truth; but those who call to other than Him, they answer them not at all save as one [soul] who stretches out his hands to the water that it may reach his [spiritual] mouth, but it reaches it not; for the praying of unbelievers is only in missing [of the truth.])

It means: The one who invites people to God alone, then his invitation is truthful, and if he prays God, God will answer his prayer.
While disbelievers and associaters invite people to the error and misguidance of the idolatry and association, and if they pray the idols or angels or saints, they will not answer their prayer.

Let's look closely at the two examples we've been discussing here: recovery from prayer and recovery from placebos.

Gerry's argument from before was this:

God was asked to intervene, person got better.

So let's not poke holes in the logic and work with it.

- Give person treatment
- Person gets better
Therefore treatment cured the person.

Now they placebo effect.

Doctors give sick patients sugar pills.The person gets better.

Using the same logic we used for prayer, can we conclude that sugar is a cure for the illness? If you look at all the illnesses people have recovered from with sugar pill placebos, we would have to conclude that sugar can cure almost everything. Sugar and any other placebo, like fake surgery.

With God is the cure

How many patients take their medical tablets, capsules and syrups, and yet they are not cured!
And how many patients take their medications and pray God and they are cured.

So both groups take their medications which will let some cured and others not respond.

The placebo may help some patients with psychological illness and may help to encourage some patients that they are getting better.

E.g. a patient with heart failure was taking his treatment for some considerable period without feeling better, then when he was given the tablets of vitamin B complex as some tonics, he said (without knowing what were such tablets), he said: these tablets that have make me better. In addition vitamin B complex certainly have some beneficial effect on the heart also.

 

[Corduroy]

What's the difference between an non-medicinal pill and prayer? Is one a placebo and the other a real cure?

 

[petros]

Reuters News reports as follows about the prayer services in Banke Bazaar.


"Witnesses said the naked girls in Bihar state plowed the fields and chanted ancient hymns after sunset to invoke the gods. They said elderly village women helped the girls drag the plows.

"They (villagers) believe their acts would get the weather gods badly embarrassed, who in turn would ensure bumper crops by sending rains," Upendra Kumar, a village council official, said from Bihar's remote Banke Bazaar town."

How many parents have told their kids, "No way are you leaving this house dressed like that!" ?
"It's OK dad. I'm going to pray for rain."

What's the difference between an non-medicinal pill and prayer? Is one a placebo and the other a real cure?

Is no difference. Both rely on faith.

 

[Corduroy]

Is no difference. Both rely on faith.

I'm trying to ask someone who thinks there is a difference. But thanks anyway

 

[petros]

There is more to it than just faith in God. There is faith in man involved too.

It's the side effects that concern me.

I almost forgot. Not everyone is cured by the placebo and not eveyone's prayers get answered.

Those are a couple of the side effects?

 

[El Barto]

here's a flip side ...how many more have prayed thier hearts out and died anyway?
Was it still Gods will?