Crime, not necessarly going down, but is it going up?

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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What has become of Halifax and Dartmouth. When I was a kid there these crimes were unheard of. Crime comes to places on TV in the movies and along with the music. These have become delivery systems for cultural disease.

I wouldn't got so far as to relate movies, tv and music to any of these crimes.... it's no different then blaming rock and roll or hippies for everything.

When I moved to Halifax in 98, these swarmmings, muggings by a group of teens, etc. didn't happen. Everybody walked around at all hours of the night, including myself and the worse thing you had to worry about was either someone shouting at you from a patio to come join the party and have some drinks, or a hooker asking if you wanted some company for the night.

By about the mid-2000's, teens and younger adults seemed to have stepped up in these robberies and swarmmings. Yes, there were gangs here and there, but mostly in areas like Highfield, Spryfield and Fairview..... now it's moved to the North end of Halifax, the south end of Halifax and most of Dartmouth.

When the swarmmings began, a lot of research and studies were done on why they were happening a lot, kids in schools were interviewed and many have said they were to get into little gangs and groups in their schools. They'd get some of their friends together, find someone walking alone and when they got up to them, they'd beat the crap out of them simply just to get on the news the next morning. It was an initiation if you want to call it anything. The reports would tell what happened, where and when, and then they'd brag to their buddies that they did it, tell some snippet of the incident that wasn't reported in the news, and they'd be considered cool enough to join one of these punk ass gangs.

It was like joining a gang in a prison. You were one of them, therefore if anybody picked on you or tried to beat you up in school, you'd have all your other goons after whoever was causing you crap.

Now it's all increased to the point where it's not just violent attacks, they also end up taking anything they can from their victims, like their wallet, money, Mp3 player, IPhone, smokes, etc.

Indeed, the HRM is increasing in population, and condos/apartments are popping up everywhere you look and popping up very fast. The problem is that while all of these places to live are popping up, there's still hardly anything done towards providing decent jobs to those who move to the city..... then you end up with people working crappy part-time jobs with low income for an extended period of time and children are brought up into that environment too..... whom go to these same schools where all of this is going on.

Put one and one together and you have a recipie for young kids/adults without a decent future, very little money, not much to do and resorting to joining in punk gangs with their buddies to deal some drugs and beat people up who seem to have a better life then they do, and take their money, smokes, phones, music players, and sell them at pawn shops for some quick cash or to trade for some drugs to keep them entertained.

And before someone jumps in here, in my early/mid 20's I hung around some of these clowns, so I do know a bit about what I'm talking about. I've seen the mentality first hand and I've also been subjected to a swarmming a few years ago as well...... They do it because they don't expect anybody to go to the police because it's considered "ratting" and even if someone, such as myself, does go to the police, the police won't do much about it because they know that with a large group of people attacking one person at once, it's difficult to make a positive ID on anybody, which is also why they do it at night (among other obvious reasons).....

And what's more, the other reason why these types of crimes have increased and gotten worse, is the simple fact that all teenagers are fully aware of the youth justice system, how they will never face any serious penalties for their crimes and when they hit 18, it's all forgotten about..... so it's basically a free-for-all until then..... and even when they hit 18, in many cases, they're still treated at a young offender or given the whole "well it's their first time" excuse and left off easy.
 

dumpthemonarchy

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Murder of Tim McLean - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Need I say more? Our immigration system allows men like Weiguang Li, who had a criminal record in China, to emmigrate to Canada and commit Crime. Hopefully, Mr. Harper will soon fix that once he has a majority in parliament.

QUOTE]

Due to the Singh case, our legal experts are confused. People who come to Canada as refugess or immigrants should not get the benefit of criminal or civil law where you are presumed innocent. That is what we do in Canada so we let in miscreants who commit crimes. Refugees and immigrants are not Canadian citizens so they should not be presumed to be innocent. International law is harsher because it protects countries from people it does not know.

But this would only solve part of the problem, but its a start.
 

Trotz

Electoral Member
May 20, 2010
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Due to the Singh case, our legal experts are confused. People who come to Canada as refugess or immigrants should not get the benefit of criminal or civil law where you are presumed innocent. That is what we do in Canada so we let in miscreants who commit crimes. Refugees and immigrants are not Canadian citizens so they should not be presumed to be innocent. International law is harsher because it protects countries from people it does not know.

But this would only solve part of the problem, but its a start.

Indeed. There's a good reason why Asian gangsters prefer Canada over the United States. Get caught with a grow up financed with Hong Kong money? Worse case scenario, you'll be deported with a slap on the wirst and/or sent to a low security prison; which in Canada, amounts to a comfortable dormitory living with video games and free ESL lessons.

Nevermind, the Yanks think we are bringing in Terrorists and giving them Financing and they're correct. We really need Ignatieff to continue being a hot head so Stephen Harper can get a majority in the next election.
 

JLM

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Stats Can and media state the crime rate is going down. But few seem to agree. So I asked a few people where I work and they all said, of course not, it's not going down. And no politician ever trumpets that it is. I agree also, I don't think crime is down because we all now .

1. must lock our bikes everywhere
2. there are far more security guards around
3. women don't feel safer on the streets at night
4. kids can't walk around by themselves, they must go on scheduled playdates

The Tories have glommed onto a feeling of uneasiness that most feel is true. Without a definitive answer to this question, it becomes political. What this may mean is that

1. we have too many immigrants
2. we resent our politicians from not taking a stand
3. the media incritically accepts academic studies and ignores facts on the ground


Getting to bottom of crime stats - thestar.com

Getting to bottom of crime stats


Re: Experts call crime rate study ‘embarrassing,’ Feb. 14

Whether Scott Newark’s study is “highly politicized” and without “statistical merit,” I am not in a position to judge. But surely it is misleading for the media and Statistics Canada to report that crime is going up or down given that they use only or mainly crimes known to the police that result in convictions.

As distinguished criminologists never tire of pointing out, crime statistics merely show “the tip of an iceberg.” What use is it to me to know that the “average” number of crimes is being referred to? What citizens want to know are the differential rates of crime within and between provinces, not the average for all provinces. It is the crime rates in their immediate and surrounding areas that are of great concern.

An official report of low crime is used glowingly by politicians to tout their party’s policies and to assuage the anxiety of citizens. Such a report is not necessarily suggestive of collusion. However, given Canada’s reputation for bureaucratic misdemeanors, a cynic might indeed suggest that it was.

It is surely not very meaningful to report that in the case of X, charged with multiple related crimes and convicted of only the most serious one, only one crime has been committed. X has been found guilty of only one crime; but other crimes were committed. Would X have been found guilty on the other related crimes? Maybe not, maybe yes. Using a conviction as the only evidence of the commission of a crime clearly minimizes the extent of crime. The recent G20 is a case in point.

Moreover, whether a crime is reported to the police depends on the victim‘s awareness of the crime as well as the ability and willingness to prosecute, and willingness to prosecute depends on whether there is faith in the fairness or efficiency of the justice system — which many citizens seemingly do not have. Police statistics are thus an imperfect mirror of crime, and should be used with caution by Statistics Canada.

Given that crime data depends on the concept of crime used as well as the procedures used to collate and report it, it follows necessarily that our explanations of crime data will be influenced by the assumptions implicit in the entire process.
Scott Newark’s study might not have met the strict standards of academic research, but does that necessarily undermine the validity of all his points?

Kenneth Aquan-Assee, Oakville

There is no doubt about it, but it's impossible to make an accurate count. If you want to be technical, every time a joint is lit up a crime is being committed.
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Cars continue to be stolen even though some new cars are next to impossible to steal. Unlike the old days when one could push in a window and pull up a lock with a coat hanger, many new vehicles today are equipped with security everything. God help someone if they lock the keys inside. A person I know accidentally locked their keys inside their Mercedes. It was like to trying to break into a tank. They eventually had to get new keys flown out. It cost them several hundreds of dollars and about three days before they could drive again. Without the aid of a small nuclear device, that car would never be on a crime stat sheet.
Any car less than ten years old has a system in place that won't let
you lock the car with the key in the ignition or leave the lights on.
 

JLM

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Any car less than ten years old has a system in place that won't let
you lock the car with the key in the ignition or leave the lights on.

#Juan, I drive a 2005 Vibe (when my wife lets me take it) and a few months ago I was paged in the Bowling Lanes for having left my lights on. The doors were locked.
 

JLM

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Doesn't a crime presuppose a victim?

It probably should. I guess the "victim" in this case would be those who are p*ssed off because they think they know best what other people should or should not be doing. :lol:
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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It probably should. I guess the "victim" in this case would be those who are p*ssed off because they think they know best what other people should or should not be doing. :lol:
Yup, people abuse themselves and those around them in a huge variety of ways. Everyone has a vice or two and will defend their right to do so. But for some strange reason think they have a right to tell others that they can't indulge in their own because it offends them. For instance, I think teaching children religion is child abuse, mental corruption but I would never tell them they can't do it. They are their children to abuse after all.
 

JLM

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Are "White Collar" shenanigans committed in Ottawa and Victoria considered to be "crime"? Are these included in the picture? If crime is going down, that would be one reason. :lol:
 

dumpthemonarchy

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There is no doubt about it, but it's impossible to make an accurate count. If you want to be technical, every time a joint is lit up a crime is being committed.

Weird, isnt it. I would rather have the govt sell regulated drugs so the quality is consistent than by organized who might sell rat poison and just shrug when caught and people die as a result.


That crime is up accepted wisdom, no politician can say otherwise.

It reminds me of an article by Hitchens I think who wrote how Jon Stewart on the Daily Show put up a picture of George Bush and everyone laughed, or said Bush's name and everyone laughed or groaned. He's a dummy, we all know that. Hitchens said that wasn't good enough, but I see the crime issue as the same idea. There's an instinctive groupthink mentality going on here in Canada regarding crime because what they academics/meda say about it and what most people believe oppose each other.

No politician in Canada can say, "Crime is down because ..." To try this doesn't pass the laugh test. We believe it is false.
 

JLM

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It may be accepted, but it is hardly wisdom. Wisdom requires something more than anecdotal evidence; something that unreported crime can never have.

Sad to say it but anecdotal evidence generally beats statistics. Most people are truthful, albeit sometimes the truth is distorted but statistics are often selected.
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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Indeed. There's a good reason why Asian gangsters prefer Canada over the United States. Get caught with a grow up financed with Hong Kong money? Worse case scenario, you'll be deported with a slap on the wirst and/or sent to a low security prison; which in Canada, amounts to a comfortable dormitory living with video games and free ESL lessons.

Nevermind, the Yanks think we are bringing in Terrorists and giving them Financing and they're correct. We really need Ignatieff to continue being a hot head so Stephen Harper can get a majority in the next election.

People who operate grow-ops are not the same as a terrorist.

The moment they start taking hostages, demanding ransoms or start blowing crap up, let me know.

Harper won't get a Majority and the Conservatives will never get a majority until they dump Harper as leader..... otherwise, don't you think he would have gotten a majority by now?

He hasn't.

Why?

Because too many people in Canada either don't trust him or hate his guts for things he has done. And with a few Conservatives being found guilty of fraud during election time and giving the Cons another black eye over their dumbass actions, they're no better then the Liberals in the 90's, so they'll never get a majority and would only happen in a Harry Potter movie due to some magical spell.

It probably should. I guess the "victim" in this case would be those who are p*ssed off because they think they know best what other people should or should not be doing. :lol:

Ah, kind of like what people are doing towards Charlie Sheen and Lohan?
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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Sad to say it but anecdotal evidence generally beats statistics.

No it doesn't. It would be sad if true, but it's not. They are apples and oranges. If a wealthy family makes more money this year than last, I'd hardly say that's a good anecdote for proof of a robust growing economy.
 

Praxius

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No it doesn't. It would be sad if true, but it's not. They are apples and oranges. If a wealthy family makes more money this year than last, I'd hardly say that's a good anecdote for proof of a robust growing economy.

No, that's why you reference a number of cases in detail, rather then just one. Going off of vauge statistics that don't tell you any real details like specifics in crimes, doesn't tell you anything at all.

gather general opinion from your friends and neighbors... ask them about their own experiences, ask someone at your local coffee shop, or a random stranger on the street..... it'll all tell you a lot more then some vague, short sighted statistic or numbers ever will.

An example?

Those stupid political popularity polls we see in the news almost every second day about where the cons are vs. the liberals. Those dumbass polls suggested Harper would gain a majority in the last election, so he called for an election..... and only gained a couple of seats, while still remaining in a minority.

Statistics don't show you the whole picture and they don't always predict the actual outcomes of anything.

Another example?

Global Warming statistics.

By now people on the coast lines should be up to their hips in water..... hasn't happened yet.
 
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Tonington

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No, that's why you reference a number of cases in detail, rather then just one.

How many cases do you need to reference to give "real details"?

Sounds to me like you're moving away from anecdote, and towards statistics.
 

JLM

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No it doesn't. It would be sad if true, but it's not. They are apples and oranges. If a wealthy family makes more money this year than last, I'd hardly say that's a good anecdote for proof of a robust growing economy.

I guess we have to agree to disagree, as I'm going on the assumption that MOST people are honest.
 

Tonington

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I guess we have to agree to disagree, as I'm going on the assumption that MOST people are honest.
I'm not sure how that means anecdotes are generally better than statistics. You don't know most peoples' stories, so your assumption about their honesty doesn't amount to much.