Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

[Colpy]

I agree with what advances the Arabs made during their Golden Age, but that civilization turned to dust in the Mid-East hundreds of years ago. We live today, and Israel is today.

Exactly....Islam used to be the keeper of knowledge..........the question is, why are they much much WORSE now than they were 700 years ago?

Why have they backslid?

The answer is simple.....and religion that demands, that has as its essence, even as its name....."submission" to a dogma. Above all, beyond all, of primary importance is submission. It is the antitheses of progressive thought.

 

[MHz]

I agree with what advances the Arabs made during their Golden Age, but that civilization turned to dust in the Mid-East hundreds of years ago. We live today, and Israel is today.

You are aware that Iran was 'REPRESSED' from 1953 to 1978 and persecution is still ongoing right? You are also aware of CIA interference in Afghanistan prior to the Soviet invasion, right? Now look at the ones in control of Israel, their every wish served on a platter and where are we, 60 years of chaos. Do the math.

 

[ironsides]

You are aware that Iran was 'REPRESSED' from 1953 to 1978 and persecution is still ongoing right? You are also aware of CIA interference in Afghanistan prior to the Soviet invasion, right? Now look at the ones in control of Israel, their every wish served on a platter and where are we, 60 years of chaos. Do the math.

So what exactly are you trying to say, it doesn't matter who or what a countries claim to fame be or for that matter that they brought it down. This has been the policy of world domination since the beginning. Trades made, trades broken. I thought Charlie Wilson did a great job getting Afghanistan supplied prior to the Soviet invasion. Just stop the weapons being shipped into Gaza and there will be peace. Iran was not repressed by the European nations or CIA, used maybe. Iran the wealthy and the private citizen profited very well from the weapons and drugs smuggled into or thru.

 

[MHz]

So what exactly are you trying to say, it doesn't matter who or what a countries claim to fame be or for that matter that they brought it down.

If we support the way Israel was created then we shouldn't be able to condemn how Saddam went into Kuwait. Rule of the biggest gun.

This has been the policy of world domination since the beginning. Trades made, trades broken.

The masses were kept in the dark, these days they can see the differences between the haves and the have nots (some, a vast majority are still in the dark) They are resisting being lead to a slaughter (literally when than money system collapses as it is designed to do withe the little guys left holding an empty bag, ... again.

I thought Charlie Wilson did a great job getting Afghanistan supplied prior to the Soviet invasion.

You do know in the that time the CIA made sure it went from women being elected as Judges and holding down important jobs in the Political and Educations sectors to having acid thrown in their faces if they were not covered up in public. That is what the CIA was providing, a covert way to stop progress by adopting the terms in the UN Human Rights documents that everybody had signed.

Just stop the weapons being shipped into Gaza and there will be peace.

There are factions outside of Israel and Gaza and the West Bank that do not want peace, at any price, they are the same ones that have acted against Afghanistan, Iran, and Iraq.

Iran was not repressed by the European nations or CIA, used maybe. Iran the wealthy and the private citizen profited very well from the weapons and drugs smuggled into or thru.

What a tard you are, lol.

 

[ironsides]

First of all, Palestine wasn't invaded, just divided up by friendly neighbors. As for Saddam he got exactly what deserved.


What is this have,have not thing everybody can be some sort of everything they want to be they just have want it bad enough. Sitting back with your hand out doing nothing is not my idea of someone deserving help. Acid attacks and the CIA???
Afghan teacher: Throw acid on attackers - World news - South and Central Asia - Afghanistan - msnbc.com

USNews: Afghan Warlords, Formerly Backed By the CIA, Now Turn Their Guns On U.S. Troops - Democratic Underground


No idea where you get your information, but your starting to sound like another person we know. Ok, you don't like the CIA, Bush etc, we get it no need for stories

 

[Machjo]

Exactly....Islam used to be the keeper of knowledge..........the question is, why are they much much WORSE now than they were 700 years ago?

Why have they backslid?

The answer is simple.....and religion that demands, that has as its essence, even as its name....."submission" to a dogma. Above all, beyond all, of primary importance is submission. It is the antitheses of progressive thought.

Yet it demanded submission to the will of God even prior to its Golden Age, so your hypothesis therefore does not make sense.

I think another way of looking at it is this:

As with any other religion, the first converts to Islam were independent-minded (as is required for a person to convert from one religion to another), and so were attracted to the progressive ideas of Islam as they were at the time. Anyone who reads the Qur'an can't help bot be amazed at its progressiveness within the context of the time in which it was revealed.

As time went on, however, ever more 'Muslims' were so as a matter of family tradition rather than actual independent thought. Add to that that as society progressed, it eventually caught up to these progressive ideas of the Qur'an and gradually even outgrew it, so that once these once-progressive ideas became outdated, the traditionalists who were simply 'born' Muslim, unlike their predecessors who'd actually understood the progressive nature of the religion at the time, merely stuck to it and became reactionary.

To put it simply, the original adherents of Islam would likely not adopt Islam today if they were resuscitated. They might acknowledge the historical validity of the Faith, but would likely look for a new religion for today.

 

[Trotz]

Does a Mormon state in North America have the right to exist? What about a Sikh state in Northern India?

Hence the problem in defining Israel's right to exist on the basis of religious prosecution, as that otherwise opens the door for religious nominations around the world to declare their independence, and of course, give them a casus beli to genocide millions (as Israel had done through the explusion of Palestinian Muslims).

 

[CUBert]

Thousands of pro-Palestinian activists on Sunday welcomed back to Istanbul the ship that was the scene of bloodshed during an Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla in May.
Activists, meanwhile, promised to send more ships in an effort to break the Gaza blockade.


Read more: CBC News - World - Raided Gaza-bound ship returns to Turkey​

 

[damngrumpy]

The Muslim faith did have progressives and turned into a religious state of tradition rather
than faith. The other problem Islam was faced with is there are two basic Islamic systems.
The Arab Sunni Muslim outlook and the more austere Persian version Sharia if I spelled it
right. The other problem for Islam is there is two versions of faith and a set of traditions but
no central figure to direct the vision of the faith itself. This leaves it open to radical and more
extremes visions, which share a somewhat equal plain. Add to that, the descriptive language
often used that appears to be more radical than it is.
The Jewish experience if I can call it that is based not on the Christ figure, but on the self
entitlement image of being Gods chosen people. I chose my words carefully here in saying
self entitlement. The fire story and the flood story from the Old Testament are really the
repackaging of stories from before, some say originally coming from the ancient Babylonian
Empire, thousands of years before the rise of the Israelites.
Should they exist? That is now a mute point, as they do exist therefore how do we accommodate
all those living in the region to allow for some measure of peace and security for all concerned.
The fact is the Palestinians also exist, and they too should have a homeland. The measure of
mans progress on this planet will be found in finding a way to make peace and establish a
stable environment for all in the region. The problem we face today is deciding whether countries
should exist that already do. Instead of fanning the flames of what was before, we should fan the
flames of the visions that might be.
As for Afghanistan and the Americans being there prior to the Russians and even during the Russian
occupation, of course the Americans were there it was part of the Cold War and in fact they armed
the people they are fighting today. One other point that should be corrected in my view is that the
invasion of Kuwait, was more justified than most. Saddam did have some claim to the region, if we
are going by the rules of questioning the right of existence. Kuwait was once a province of Iraq, that
the British carved off, in order to secure the oil reserves that were known in Kuwait during the British
occupation of the region, in the early twentieth century I believe.
Even with that most people agree that Kuwait has the right to exist and in reality so does Israel, we
can debate it all day, but the fact is Israel will exist as a nation for a long time to come.

 

[Trotz]

The Muslim faith did have progressives and turned into a religious state of tradition rather
than faith. The other problem Islam was faced with is there are two basic Islamic systems.
The Arab Sunni Muslim outlook and the more austere Persian version Sharia if I spelled it
right. The other problem for Islam is there is two versions of faith and a set of traditions but
no central figure to direct the vision of the faith itself. This leaves it open to radical and more
extremes visions, which share a somewhat equal plain. Add to that, the descriptive language
often used that appears to be more radical than it is.
The Jewish experience if I can call it that is based not on the Christ figure, but on the self
entitlement image of being Gods chosen people. I chose my words carefully here in saying
self entitlement. The fire story and the flood story from the Old Testament are really the
repackaging of stories from before, some say originally coming from the ancient Babylonian
Empire, thousands of years before the rise of the Israelites.
Should they exist? That is now a mute point, as they do exist therefore how do we accommodate
all those living in the region to allow for some measure of peace and security for all concerned.
The fact is the Palestinians also exist, and they too should have a homeland. The measure of
mans progress on this planet will be found in finding a way to make peace and establish a
stable environment for all in the region. The problem we face today is deciding whether countries
should exist that already do. Instead of fanning the flames of what was before, we should fan the
flames of the visions that might be.
As for Afghanistan and the Americans being there prior to the Russians and even during the Russian
occupation, of course the Americans were there it was part of the Cold War and in fact they armed
the people they are fighting today. One other point that should be corrected in my view is that the
invasion of Kuwait, was more justified than most. Saddam did have some claim to the region, if we
are going by the rules of questioning the right of existence. Kuwait was once a province of Iraq, that
the British carved off, in order to secure the oil reserves that were known in Kuwait during the British
occupation of the region, in the early twentieth century I believe.
Even with that most people agree that Kuwait has the right to exist and in reality so does Israel, we
can debate it all day, but the fact is Israel will exist as a nation for a long time to come.

Just a case of real politk or "none the wiser" argumentation. The reality being, had armies never been organized to liberate Kuwait, there would otherwise be a secular state in the Middle East (Saddam even had Christians in top positions within his government) and Kuwait wouldn't be on the map (other than as a province within Iraq) and rarely discussed.

 

[Goober]

Thousands of pro-Palestinian activists on Sunday welcomed back to Istanbul the ship that was the scene of bloodshed during an Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla in May.

Activists, meanwhile, promised to send more ships in an effort to break the Gaza blockade.​

Read more: CBC News - World - Raided Gaza-bound ship returns to Turkey​

Well you called me a liar and that is in itself a very serious allegation, to those with morals that is - I have shown how you look upon Jews - care to rebut?

Quote: Originally Posted by CUBert

Israel is a serious problem and detrimental to peace in the middle east.



I'm positive you've lost this argument already , numerous times in fact.


Ok, I don't know what's going on in this post.. Firstly you make up a lie that I want all jews nuked... Even if I was vehemently anti-jewish , to nuke all jews would be suicide as jews are scattered all over the world... And anyways, i'm not anti-jewish.... then after that erroneous accusation of racism you've bestowed upon me, you actually begin spewing racist rhetoric !!!!!
you say Arabs are all murders, oppressors (LOL), torturers, make families disappear?? (basically you're describing the actions of the terrorist American government in the middle east and south america, not arabs)... and finally you insinuate wrongly that all Arabs are muslim...
i can't comprehend the load of garbage your post was... my mind is still boggled..
​

1st off - I do not lie - I do not hate people because of religious or non religious beliefs - I hate Racists, Thieves, liar, Trolls and those that are for the complete annihilation of a state - A Jewish State.
That makes you
1 - A Racist
2- A NAZI
3- And No morals, no personal character outside of pure unadulterated Racism & Hatred.


Your Post

Read the last para.

Perhaps you have some sort of an explanation for it - Goebbles did along with many other Nazi's that belived that the mass murder on a massive scale never before seen in history, assembly line murder of millions.

Yep - You llke Jews - Like that old saying - and a racist one at that - The only good Indian is a dead Indian - Substitute Jew as I know you have difficulty with simple thoughts.



Washington has offered Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu 20 advanced US fighter jets as well as other tempting goodies if Israel agrees to extend its freeze on settlement construction in the West Bank.

Indeed, the offer from Washington is so tantalizing that even the Israeli media is calling it a “bribe.”

Netanyahu, who was in the United States last week to hammer out the details of the “compromise,” has been offered $3 billion (1 billion pounds) worth of advanced F-35 jets. These on top of the 20 F-35s Israel already plans to buy for $2.75 billion drawn from annual grants it gets from Washington.

In other words, Israel is slated to receive 40 advanced fighter jets – a package worth just under $6 billion dollars – absolutely free of charge courtesy of the US taxpayer.

Fighter jets and peace talks

It must seem ironic to some political observers that US President Barack Obama, who was awarded with the Nobel Peace Prize last year, is the same man who is indulging Israel with America’s most advanced fighter weapons of war to stay committed to the Middle East peace plan.

There is also the question of supplying Israel, albeit a valuable US ally, with so much expensive military hardware at the same time American citizens are forced to cut back on spending due to the financial crisis.

forgot the punchline:

quote: Indeed, the very fact that the United States has included a clause stating that it would not request further settlement freeze extensions in the future, while also declaring its intent to side with Israel in the face of any UN challenge does not seem to bode well for the immediate future of the peace talks.​

i mean, can people even comprehend this? obama's "compromise" to israel is that they stop building settlements for 90 days, and in return they get billions of dollars worth of merchandise to murder palestinians with and they can continue to expand as much as they want in the west bank, forever. wow, this administration sure drives a hard bargain!!!!!!!!

the best part is what will probably happen is israel will reject the offer and obama will give them the military hardware and allow them to keep expanding indefinitely anyway

construct some sort of sci-fi dome structure over the gaza strip and west bank capable of withstanding the heat of a thousand suns and cleanse the zionist cockroaches from the face of the earth with nuclear fire

 

[earth_as_one]

Thousands of pro-Palestinian activists on Sunday welcomed back to Istanbul the ship that was the scene of bloodshed during an Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla in May.
Activists, meanwhile, promised to send more ships in an effort to break the Gaza blockade.


Read more: CBC News - World - Raided Gaza-bound ship returns to Turkey​

No country can legally interfere with the free flow of humanitarian aid. Since Israel restricts the flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza to a trickle, humanitarian activists have every moral right to attempt to circumvent it. If North Korea or Iran tried to starve and bomb people into suibmission, I doubt the main stream media would be as sympathetic and our leaders as silent.

Since this aid ship was in international waters when it was attacked, Israel`s actions were an act of piracy or an act of war against Turkey. If the activists planned to oppose violence with violence, they would have been better armed. Instead they were armed with weapons of opportunity, indicating they were attacked and defending themselves.


>>
Report of the international fact-finding mission to investigate
violations of international law, including international
humanitarian and human rights law, resulting from the
Israeli attacks on the flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian
assistance

....

170. The circumstances of the killing of at least six of the passengers were in a manner
consistent with an extra-legal, arbitrary and summary execution. Furkan Doğan and İbrahim
Bilgen were shot at near range while the victims were lying injured on the top deck. Cevdet
Kiliçlar, Cengiz Akyüz, Cengiz Songür and Çetin Topçuoğlu were shot on the bridge deck
while not participating in activities that represented a threat to any Israeli soldier. In these
instances and possibly other killings on the Mavi Marmara, Israeli forces carried out extralegal,
arbitrary and summary executions prohibited by international human rights law,
specifically article 6 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.80

171. It is apparent that a number of the passengers on the top deck were subjected to
further mistreatment while lying injured. This included physical and verbal abuse some
time after the operation to secure control of the deck had concluded. Furthermore, these
passengers were not provided with medical treatment for two to three hours after the
cessation of the operation. Similarly injured passengers who were inside the ship at the end
of the operation of the Israeli forces were denied proper medical treatment for a similar
length of time despite frequent efforts by other persons on board, including flotilla
organizers, requesting such assistance to be provided. Other passengers suffering from
chronic medical conditions were also denied access to their required essential medicines.
The Israeli forces failed to meet the requirement to provide proper medical treatment to all
those injured as rapidly as possible.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/15session/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf

 

[damngrumpy]

I for one sometimes have a problem with the international law speech we hear constantly.
There is a pick and chose mentality of convenience most of the time. We can interfere in
one place but not another, it seems. I also believe a sovereign state means exactly that.
What happens inside the boarders of a country is that countries business, and until said
nation begins to threaten its neighbours with violent action it is not always the worlds over
all business what happens. If they are holding a foreign countries citizens hostage or that
sort of thing that is different. If they are fighting a civil war that is none of our business, let
the factions fight it out and settle things once and for all. All too often we interfere with the
outcome to force peace on warring factions that will flare up again at a later date.
That is what happened in the Middle East, time and time again.
And yes, Saddam was the only secular government in the Middle East and he was in fact
assisted into power by the United States. In the Iran Iraq war, Saddam was assisted at
every bend by the United States. Some say Saddam gassed his own people, but they don't
mention that, Saddam got the satellite pictures from those in official positions in Washington.
All this is part of the sad saga of Middle Eastern politics.
America is not the only one to blame here though, there is plenty of blame to go round, and
we keep coming back to the central fact of reality, Israel, already does exist, and the Arab
States exist and at some point the Palestinian State must also exist, so to truly bring peace
to the region, how do we make that happen.
In my own opinion the Israelis don't want peace, so they don't have to have a Palestinian State.
The Arab countries don't want a Palestinian State because the cause they have been fighting for
would be realized with Israel still in their midst, and they would be forced to recognize that nation
after all the fighting they have done.
The major powers don't want peace because they would see the Arab States unify themselves
and that would not be good for France, Russia, or the United States. A united Arab world would
mean all kinds of problems potentially for all the western powers.
What a tangled Web we weave, when we practise to deceive. and that saying holds true to
this day.

 

[ironsides]

While the elite in North Korea may live in modern luxury in the fortress city of Pyongyang, the rest of the country is in severe poverty without adequate food and medical care.
In an airless, dark hospital in North Korea a man with burns covering two-thirds of his body lay in the corner of a room. He had been hideously burned by molten iron and only a skin graft could save his life. The hospital had no technical equipment, bandages, scalpels, antibiotics or anesthesia to treat him. So the North Korean doctors and nurses gave the only treatment they had: their own skin. One by one they lined up to have portions of their skin removed with a razor blade to save this man's life.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_25_17/ai_76402691/

 

[Goober]

No country can legally interfere with the free flow of humanitarian aid. Since Israel restricts the flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza to a trickle, humanitarian activists have every moral right to attempt to circumvent it. If North Korea or Iran tried to starve and bomb people into suibmission, I doubt the main stream media would be as sympathetic and our leaders as silent.

Since this aid ship was in international waters when it was attacked, Israel`s actions were an act of piracy or an act of war against Turkey. If the activists planned to oppose violence with violence, they would have been better armed. Instead they were armed with weapons of opportunity, indicating they were attacked and defending themselves.


>>
Report of the international fact-finding mission to investigate
violations of international law, including international
humanitarian and human rights law, resulting from the
Israeli attacks on the flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian
assistance

....

170. The circumstances of the killing of at least six of the passengers were in a manner
consistent with an extra-legal, arbitrary and summary execution. Furkan Doğan and İbrahim
Bilgen were shot at near range while the victims were lying injured on the top deck. Cevdet
Kiliçlar, Cengiz Akyüz, Cengiz Songür and Çetin Topçuoğlu were shot on the bridge deck
while not participating in activities that represented a threat to any Israeli soldier. In these
instances and possibly other killings on the Mavi Marmara, Israeli forces carried out extralegal,
arbitrary and summary executions prohibited by international human rights law,
specifically article 6 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.80

171. It is apparent that a number of the passengers on the top deck were subjected to
further mistreatment while lying injured. This included physical and verbal abuse some
time after the operation to secure control of the deck had concluded. Furthermore, these
passengers were not provided with medical treatment for two to three hours after the
cessation of the operation. Similarly injured passengers who were inside the ship at the end
of the operation of the Israeli forces were denied proper medical treatment for a similar
length of time despite frequent efforts by other persons on board, including flotilla
organizers, requesting such assistance to be provided. Other passengers suffering from
chronic medical conditions were also denied access to their required essential medicines.
The Israeli forces failed to meet the requirement to provide proper medical treatment to all
those injured as rapidly as possible.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/15session/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf

Check up on Blockades before you make you usual dumb ****n points.
Best check International law on Blockades. Thye just do not begin at Israeli or Gaza's so called sea borders. But then again. We are used to your posts that have not been thought out. Goggle it for a change - get an education beofre you post dimass statements that are not based upon reality. See what is states as legal interception of ship bound to break a blockade.

 

[gerryh]

Check up on Blockades before you make you usual dumb ****n points.
Best check International law on Blockades. Thye just do not begin at Israeli or Gaza's so called sea borders. But then again. We are used to your posts that have not been thought out. Goggle it for a change - get an education beofre you post dimass statements that are not based upon reality. See what is states as legal interception of ship bound to break a blockade.

roflmfao....what a hypocrite.

 

[Goober]

roflmfao....what a hypocrite.

Rebut the point or fukn off.

 

[gerryh]

Rebut the point or fukn off.

the hypocracy point has now been made twice....idiot.

 

[ironsides]

Since this aid ship was in international waters when it was attacked, Israel`s actions were an act of piracy or an act of war against Turkey. If the activists planned to oppose violence with violence, they would have been better armed. Instead they were armed with weapons of opportunity, indicating they were attacked and defending themselves.


http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/15session/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf

CAN ISRAEL IMPOSE A NAVAL BLOCKADE ON GAZA?


Yes it can, according to the law of blockade which was derived from customary international law and codified in the 1909 Declaration of London. It was updated in 1994 in a legally recognized document called the "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea."

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65133D20100602

 

[earth_as_one]

No country can legally block humanitarian aid. Deliberating causing 1.5 m million people to suffer years of disease and malnutrition is a crime against humanity.

This blockade constitutes “Collective Punishment” of a civilian population an act illegal under Article 33 of the fourth Geneva Convention. But the Culture of Impunity, under which Israel operates, means Israel continues to ignore International Law with many of the World’s Governments and international bodies’ remaining silent.

In the words of one Israeli Professor, Israel has made Gaza into the largest open air prison in the world. Whether by land, sea or air the one and a half million inhabitants of Gaza are trapped, their 6 border crossings are closed (including the Raffah crossing with Egypt), their airport destroyed and their port and coastal waters shut down by a naval blockade. The people are forced to live a suffocating life of misery and hardship....

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2010/05/27/from-mairead-maguire-nobel-peace-prize-l