Replacing the UN with a real body with real teeth.

The Old Medic

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May 16, 2010
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Once again, Petros is beating his drum for world peace and solidarity. Of course, he doesn't have a clue, his basic thesis is flawed, and his entire premise is wrong.

The United Nations was never meant to be a "World Government", nor should it be. And God help the western or industrialized countries of this world, if a true world government were to ever come into being.

The swarms of those unwilling to develop for their own people, those myriad of countries that operate totally from the top down, those that do nothing for their starving masses, while their rich live lives of total luxury would simply vote themselves our prosperity.

In the process, they would strip the advanced countries of their wealth, production and ability to create more products, grow more food, etc.

A true democratic world government would essentially be run like India. There, the haves do well, the rest of the population barely ekes out a living. Or perhaps like Nigeria, where the corruption is so ingrained that it is virtually impossible to root it out.

Much better to retain national government, and allow countries like Canada, Australia and the USA to grow the food that feeds the world.
 

CurioToo

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Nov 22, 2010
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Thanks to the question posited and to the writers who responded...

I am trying to learn and sort out my emotional reactions with what is logical in our world today - to find an answer to what could be possible for a world body of nations all working together but weeding out the negatives which the U.N. appears to have developed overthe decades. Particularly their solutions of
military force and money gathering while continuing to have lavish world wide social functions creating
expenditures which seem out of line with their proclaimed aims and solutions.

You have all given me some thinking to do today - and I appreciate it so much as the topic is a constant irritant to me as I have no logical answers but continue to believe the U.N. has lost its focus and unselfish goals.

CurioToo
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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Much better to retain national government, and allow countries like Canada, Australia and the USA to grow the food that feeds the world.

What do you mean by allow others to grow the food? Do you mean that poor countries should keep their mouths shut when a country like Canada, USA, or Australia enacts trade and subsidy policies which distort global markets, and price the poor subsistence farmers out of the market? I'm not sure what exactly it is you mean by allow...
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Would Iran and Israel qualify as democracies? Who decides?

What about Muslim democracies like Turkey and Malasia? Are they allowed to join this exclusive international group?
 

Colpy

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Would Iran and Israel qualify as democracies? Who decides?

What about Muslim democracies like Turkey and Malasia? Are they allowed to join this exclusive international group?

The ONLY criteria should be free and open elections.....yes to Turkey and Malaysia....no to Iran.

Their elections are not free, as candidates must be vetted by the Clerical Council........

No question Israel would be a member. No sane person has ever question the openess nor the validity of their elections.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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What about the handouts to the bottom, we are losing our middleclass and soon their will only be rich and poor. Feudalism all over again.
This s where those with more get in to invest those with less without walking away with their resources and them not wanting to blow up you local shoppping mall.

Would Iran and Israel qualify as democracies? Who decides?

What about Muslim democracies like Turkey and Malasia? Are they allowed to join this exclusive international group?
There would be no choice of opting out.

Once again, Petros is beating his drum for world peace and solidarity. Of course, he doesn't have a clue, his basic thesis is flawed, and his entire premise is wrong.

The United Nations was never meant to be a "World Government", nor should it be. And God help the western or industrialized countries of this world, if a true world government were to ever come into being.

The swarms of those unwilling to develop for their own people, those myriad of countries that operate totally from the top down, those that do nothing for their starving masses, while their rich live lives of total luxury would simply vote themselves our prosperity.

In the process, they would strip the advanced countries of their wealth, production and ability to create more products, grow more food, etc.

A true democratic world government would essentially be run like India. There, the haves do well, the rest of the population barely ekes out a living. Or perhaps like Nigeria, where the corruption is so ingrained that it is virtually impossible to root it out.

Much better to retain national government, and allow countries like Canada, Australia and the USA to grow the food that feeds the world.
What if you mean? At this point it a matter of when. Strip your wealth? Wealth based on what? Resource exploitation of those who don't have the means to stop it? Do you have any idea how much security it takes to run a gas plant in the Niger delta or a copper mine in Peru under our curent system? If they weren't stripped of their wealth you wouldn't have any. What do you think will happen? You'll have to trade in yout truck for a wheelbarrow, tear down you house and be moved into an apartment? Get real. Right this very minute your wealth is already going to an unelected UN that is redistributing your wealth. Agriculture developement is already eating 0.02% of our GDP as a form of taxation. Want a link to learn more. BTW USA Australia and US don't even come close to feeding the world. You need to read more.

Lets put it this way. The amount of resources coming out of Africa has doubled in the past 20 years but at the sametime poverty has doubled. How the hell does that happen? Puppet governments? Yup! So who are the puppeteers?

The future of food....yes it's socialist based.


FAO: FAO Home

Who wants to tackle the question of global policing?

What do you mean by allow others to grow the food? Do you mean that poor countries should keep their mouths shut when a country like Canada, USA, or Australia enacts trade and subsidy policies which distort global markets, and price the poor subsistence farmers out of the market? I'm not sure what exactly it is you mean by allow...
 
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Ron in Regina

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Apr 9, 2008
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FAO: FAO Home

Who wants to tackle the question of global policing?



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petros

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International community must be aware of possibility of even higher food prices in 2011

17 November 2010, Rome – International food import bills could pass the one trillion dollar mark in 2010 with prices in most commodities up sharply from 2009, FAO said today.

In the latest edition of its Food Outlook report, the agency also issued a warning to the international community to prepare for harder times ahead unless production of major food crops increases significantly in 2011.

Food import bills for the world’s poorest countries are predicted to rise 11 percent in 2010 and by 20 percent for low-income food-deficit countries.

???????



???????
A puppet military? We already have one.
 

Machjo

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Erase the coonection between socialism and tryanical communism and you have what we've been living in North America for over 80 years now except today the capitalists are the tyrants and line up for the socialist payments like kids lining up to see Santa Claus.

The hand outs to the top have got to stop if you want a real capitalist free market society.

It is and will be socialist. It can't continue being as lopsided as it is without 85% of the planet coming for our heads.

A corporate welfare state is hardly capitalist. In fact, I'd chose socialism over that any day. If we're going to hand out money irresponsibly, we might as well give it at least to the destitute who really need it rather than the fat guys at the top.

That said, I'd still prefer a social-corporatist state to a truly socialist state, as it is more likely to find the right balance between socialism (the redistribution of wealth between rich and poor)and capitalism (the production of wealth), finding a happy medium leading to a more just society overall with both the rich and poor coexisting and working together to achieve common objectives. A social-corporatist system is likely to be far less confrontational and class-divisive than either capitalism (and especially corporate welfare 'capitalism') and unbridled socialism.

The ONLY criteria should be free and open elections.....yes to Turkey and Malaysia....no to Iran.

Their elections are not free, as candidates must be vetted by the Clerical Council........

No question Israel would be a member. No sane person has ever question the openess nor the validity of their elections.

I agree with you overall, though I still wouldn't give Israel a total pass considering some of its religious laws, especially with regards to interfaith marriage and conversion laws.

Again, I'm certainly not comparing Israel to Iran, which is a far worse offender, and am certainly not painting Canada as an angel either with regards to our separate school system in Ontario or parts of Quebec's Bill 101 and our disregard for treaties we'd signed supposedly in good faith. However, regardless of Iran's and Canada's unjust laws, Israel is no angel either. Certainly just as we ought to criticise Canada's and Iran's policies, I don't see why Israel ought to get a free pass.

We may see a welfare state but one generalized to the global norm. A free pot of rice in form of welfare is considered a blessing in most countries of the 'Global South'.






Indeed. The solution for world dominance is in the past in form of decentralization. This was the very same decentralization that allowed French, German and Russian kings to control vast territories; mind you there were no supersonic aircraft then, so the world was unimaginably huge back then (weeks and months to travel across these Empires - yet these Empires were otherwise stable).

To control the world you must control, or better termed, have the support of regional and local elites. Remember it is these same elites who, if annoyed, can rally others under banners of 'nationalism', 'race', 'religion', et al; and their association with the locals means they have always have the advantage over a far away centralized authority.

You can effectively ignore the 'peasants', there have only been a few peasant rebellions in modern history (i.e. 1848 rebellions) and none of them were successful to the extent of toppling a government. It's hard to mobilize mass support on a national scale (regional on the other hand) as peasants are otherwise too busy with primitive concerns, i.e. sex, football, cold beer in the fridge, et al.

Let's not confuse imperialism with world federalism. By definition an empire has one country reigning over others. In a world federation, by definition, everyone, or at least all adults who aren't in jail, get to vote for it eitehr directly or indirectly via free elections, thus ensuring no country dominates any other. As for the elites, it would be more difficult for them to truly control matters seeing that in such a federation, information would flow more efficiently among the general population to make it difficult for the elites to hoodwink them.

Concerning some of the recommendations in this thread, I do see some issues. Among the recommendations is that only democratic countries could join. This of course is not a world federation, but merely a federation of democratic countries of the world. Though I suppose it would still be a step forward. It could then have its one ambassador to the UN, thus giving this one superstate considerable clout. However, it also risks isolating other states and thus not promoting any real advancement. But it would still be a valid fist step I suppose.

Another risk we need to consider has to do with certain member states being granted an unfair advantage via cultural imperialism. One solution that would be absolutely necessary so as to avoid such ethnic tensions woudl be some kind of common second language that would be easy for all to learn. One advantage of such a language is that even non-democratic countries would want their peopel to learn is as a second language for commercial and other economic reasons. Needless to say, a common second language designed to be easy for all to learn would mean that the average person in these countries would suddenly have access to a world of knowledge... literally. This would make it very difficult for non-democratic states to operate in the long-term. In fact, such a language might even be a prerequisite to any kind of world federation. After all, look at all the infighting in Canada between French and English Canadians, or in Belgium.

Looking at it that way, perhaps we could put the Un to one last task: adopting, creating, or revising a common second language to be taught in all schools of the world. Once that's done, we create a federation of democratic countries of the world which would of course introduce the same auxiliary language into their school system. This would make isolaiton on the part of non-democratic countries very difficult. After all, imagine being able to discuss with the average Chinese in a forum like this one on-line in a common auxiliary language. While today this may be possible with the Chinese elite in English, it's certainly not possible for the average English-speaker to communicate with the average Chinese high school student living in some small town in China.
 

Trotz

Electoral Member
May 20, 2010
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Another risk we need to consider has to do with certain member states being granted an unfair advantage via cultural imperialism. One solution that would be absolutely necessary so as to avoid such ethnic tensions woudl be some kind of common second language that would be easy for all to learn. One advantage of such a language is that even non-democratic countries would want their peopel to learn is as a second language for commercial and other economic reasons. Needless to say, a common second language designed to be easy for all to learn would mean that the average person in these countries would suddenly have access to a world of knowledge... literally. This would make it very difficult for non-democratic states to operate in the long-term. In fact, such a language might even be a prerequisite to any kind of world federation. After all, look at all the infighting in Canada between French and English Canadians, or in Belgium.

Again, Lenin and the Soviets tried this and it was a failure. Even if everyone in the world spoke English and were united under a single world government, there would still be regional concerns, inequalities; et al, to think otherwise would be ignorant of humanity.

Infighting in Canada has nothing to do with cultural differences. Language and nationalism in Quebec is just a "rally banner" used by Quebec's provincial elites to rally support against the Central Government.

Fact of the matter is, it is not cultural oppression that defines Canadian infighting but oppression from the central government, which under Pearson and Trudeau, saw tremendous centralization that was contrary to the wishes of provincial figures. As demonstrated in Alberta, infighting there is not "damn Quebecers" but concerns about equalization payments, money taken by the central government and given to somewhere else in Canada.

If we took an axe to the Federal Government in Canada than most of our "infighting" would cease overnight.

These problems, even if everyone on this planet was of the same race and language, would be ten or hundred fold under a world government.
 

Machjo

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Again, Lenin and the Soviets tried this and it was a failure.

When did they ever try this? To the best of my understanding, the Soviets tried to impose Russian on conquered territories, but Russian is hardly easy to learn.

Even if everyone in the world spoke English and were united under a single world government, there would still be regional concerns, inequalities; et al, to think otherwise would be ignorant of humanity.

It will never happen. The 2001 statistics I'd seen for Western Europe were abysmal, with about 6% of Western Europeans having reached a functional level of competence in the language!

As for your second point about regional concerns, I totally agree with you. My point though was that to enter into a world federal system of government without a common second language that even a dull pupil could learn to fluency before the end of middle school is bound to exacerbate already-existent social inequities.

Infighting in Canada has nothing to do with cultural differences. Language and nationalism in Quebec is just a "rally banner" used by Quebec's provincial elites to rally support against the Central Government.

While there is indeed some truth to what you say, your overall assessment is way too simplistic. If we consider that as per StatsCan 2006 only about 43% of Quebecers claim to know English to some degree, and that an objective assessment would likely bring it down to about 33% with most concentrated on the island of Montreal and a few other English-speaking enclaves along Quebec's border regions, it's natural to conclude that for about 67% of Quebecers, the rest of Canada is, for all practical purposes, totally foreign to them. That fact certainly helps the elites in promoting such division.

Fact of the matter is, it is not cultural oppression that defines Canadian infighting but oppression from the central government, which under Pearson and Trudeau, saw tremendous centralization that was contrary to the wishes of provincial figures. As demonstrated in Alberta, infighting there is not "damn Quebecers" but concerns about equalization payments, money taken by the central government and given to somewhere else in Canada.

Yes, those all play a role. But make no mistake about it that Pearson and Trudeau were themselves products of their environment. English-French tensions go way back in Canada and have generally quieted down in good times and risen up in bad times. While language alone certainly does not explain all of the tensions, it is a contributing factor in many cases.

If we took an axe to the Federal Government in Canada than most of our "infighting" would cease overnight.

Well yes, since there would be no more Canada. Then infighting would be replaced by international relations. Now if you meant not so much taking the ax to the Federal Government, but merely decentralizing it, then that's something I'd likely agree to very much. But provincial isolation alone, while it certainly allows each group to mind its own business, certainly does not help to promote economic efficiency an cultural cohesiveness and efficient labour movement.

These problems, even if everyone on this planet was of the same race and language, would be ten or hundred fold under a world government.

Yes and no. If we tried to force a common mother tongue on the world's population, we'd start WWIII. However, promoting an easy-to-learn second language would help promote more efficient exchange of cultural, scientific and technological and other knowledge worldwide without need for interpretors. A centralized world federation would be extremely cumbersome. No world government makes international relations in the modern jet and internet age a little cumbersome too. The question is where to find the balance. I believe it lies in a decentralized world federation, not a black or white all or nothing approach. However, even that kind of federation would still need to have al of its members be able to communicate efficiently with one another. The EU is a good example of what not to emulate on that front. They spend billions a year on translation services and continue to have difficulty ensuring all documents are available to all interested citizens in a timely fashion. That's not real democracy.
 

petros

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Nov 21, 2008
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Simply put socialy funded democracy and capatilsm need a damn good scrubbing because they really stink since everything was deregulated under GATT.

The export market from North America tanked as soon as Asian labour markets opened up.

With Canada's resources and US & Mexico's labour we could bring balance back to the trade deficiet and jobs a plenty for all in Nor Am.

Either we do it or we keep painting over the rust.
 

Trotz

Electoral Member
May 20, 2010
893
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Simply put socialy funded democracy and capatilsm need a damn good scrubbing because they really stink since everything was deregulated under GATT.

The export market from North America tanked as soon as Asian labour markets opened up.

With Canada's resources and US & Mexico's labour we could bring balance back to the trade deficiet and jobs a plenty for all in Nor Am.

Either we do it or we keep painting over the rust.

Petros,
Mexican labour is not cheap enough compared to China, Indonesia and India.


Regardless our means of subsistence were determined once through a form of quasi-protectionism against Europe. Quasi protectionism in the sense that all of Germany and France, at the end of WW2, was rubble, British protectionism was dismantled through bilateral agreements and American industry was unrivaled in the world.

I wouldn't mind a form of NAFTA protectionism but the last thing I want to see is "Canadian protectionism", as that is otherwise Trudeauism and branch-plant economics and that doesn't function well with the staples' thesis (that Canada is better off investing into low-capital resource extraction)
 

Trotz

Electoral Member
May 20, 2010
893
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They aren't going to stay cheap. That is how unregulated capitalism works.

There are something like 100 million Indians who have no plumbing and tens of millions take a dump, drink, bathe and cremate their dead in the Ganges River.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Petros,
Mexican labour is not cheap enough compared to China, Indonesia and India.

We're down to three options.

1. Revitalize industry and beat the Germans in quality (not happening with the American education system)

I could see three steps to improve education:

1. Adopt a Swedish-style voucher programme, and
2. Adopt a Hungarian-style L2 education policy.

That might be a humble start.

Yu referenced German education. Unfortunately I know too little about it to comment on it.

2. Protectionism (not Trudeauism but continuing NAFTA with barriers to European and Chinese trade)

Protectionism keeps inefficient industries operational, thus draining our resources. Free trade separates the chaff from the wheat on both sides, thus helping each to become more efficient.


3. Resource extraction (staples' thesis - not compatible with booming populations)

Over-dependence on the export of raw materials is dangerous as it makes us too vulnerable to the market demand for them. I'm not against the export of our natural resources per se, but would suggest we mildly discourage it in favour of finished products, research, knowledge, services, etc. which are fully renewable and sustainable, unlike finite material resources.

One way I can see us do this would be by shifting taxes, at least to some degree, onto resources. For instance, if we scrapped the PST and GST and replaced them with a resource tax, or possibly lowered income taxes and raised resource taxes instead, then the rise in resource taxes would make our natural resources less attractive abroad, while a drop in income taxes and general value added taxes would help to make our less resource-dependent industries more attractive abroad. As a result, our resource exports would drop, at lest slightly, while all other exports would grow, again at least slightly. One disadvantage though is that this would mean we'd need to invest more in education too as our economy shifts slightly more towards a knowledge-intensive economy. So it probably would mean higher taxes towards education, but that might be the only way to go to assure a future for our country in the long term.


In effect we once had protectionism against Europe, namely when we couldn't trade with the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact and the other half of Europe was rubble, as a result of WW2, until the Germans recovered in the 1980s (and brought an end to our high end precision industries).[/QUOTE]
 

petros

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There are something like 100 million Indians who have no plumbing and tens of millions take a dump, drink, bathe and cremate their dead in the Ganges River.
That's only 1 out of 10. Add up how many cities discharge into the Great Lakes and what evenutally goes through the St Lawrence and Mississippi.
 

Tonington

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I wouldn't mind a form of NAFTA protectionism but the last thing I want to see is "Canadian protectionism"

So what's the logic here? Protectionism at the local scale is bad, but at a larger scale is OK? I'm of the opinion that if you have a model for how something works, it should probably work for most if not all scales, excluding only the very extreme cases.
 

Machjo

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They aren't going to stay cheap. That is how unregulated capitalism works.

They could stay cheap only for so long. If we buy more of their products, then the currency appreciates and our currency devaluates until gradually our products start to become more affordable to them and their more expensive to us. At the same time, this helps to raise their standard of living.

You see, I really am a socialist at heart, but sometimes capitalism can achieve certain socialist aims of social justice on its own without needing government intervention, and when that's the case, even a socialist government should embrace it. The only time a socialist government ought to intervene in the market is to redistribute wealth between rich and poor, not to prevent the poor from rising to the level of the rich. besides, wouldn't that be anathema to what socialists are trying to achieve?

Sure capitalism has its problems, and sure government needs to protect the poor by controlling usurious interest rates, preventing the vulnerable from being exploited by gambling and lottery companies (ironic that the government is the business itself!), and alcohol industries (another irony of government selling a harmful substance here too in some provinces). But the way I see it, a true socialist intervenes in the capitalist economy solely to control the harm it can do, not to prevent it from doing good!

So what's the logic here? Protectionism at the local scale is bad, but at a larger scale is OK? I'm of the opinion that if you have a model for how something works, it should probably work for most if not all scales, excluding only the very extreme cases.

My thoughts exactly.

Hey, I've decided that I won't trade anymore. I've quit my job, planted food on the roof, and started mining for whatever cheap metals if any I might find beneath my basement. My hope is that eventually I could melt soem of that metal in the sun or by burning some of my plants to eventually make a solar panel to produce the energy necessary to start growing my own bananas.
 

petros

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We've started a new Geological Period and like the all new Eons they start with mass extinctions and radical geological change. The good part is they always spur on an explosion of new life that adapts rapidly and life goes on better than before.

Welcome to the Anthropocene!