Don't get out much? I thought everybody on the Net knew that one. Coined by Mike Godwin in 1989: as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler or Nazis approaches 1.
Robert Latimer
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Don't put words in my mouth, Gerry- Abortion wasn't mentioned here but my stand on it (another topic altogether) is well documented on this forum. The only thing mercy killing is better than is incessant and unrelenting suffering. Or do you believe in "life" at all costs?
So, it's not just the details of Robert Latimer's trial that you're ignorant of...cerebral palsy does cause pain. Read and learn:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/491005_3
What I should have said is that pre meditation is generally very hard to prove, which is why many cases ged pled down. Robert Latimer freeley gave evidence against himself, had he been malicious he would have hidden the evidence. Pre meditation has been excused in numerous cases, and state of mind been considered as mitigating factor in others. Each case has to judged on its own merits because rarely are any two the same.
Murder is a pseudo legal term as it refers to homicide. Different jurisdictions classify homicides differently, and usually by degree of some sort, from accidental, accidental by negligence of varying degrees, deliberate, deliberate through pre meditation, and such.
War is a different animal with different laws attached. I consider myself a spiritual person, but my family refers to me as religious, so be it. But sometimes wars have to be fought, sometimes you have to take the life of someone else. Fighting and killing as a defender would be considered righteous, but when the defense involves pre emptive strikes it gets a bit muddled, and you may have to do a bit of soul searching. A friend of mine has been battling demons for a long time having been a sniper in Her Majesty's Service. There is a misunderstood biblical quote "judge not lest ye be judged" meaning, in my mind, don't judge anyone by higher standards than you wish yourself to be judged. There is a lot more grey than there is black and white.
I hardly think mentioning it a few times in over 6000 posts counts as hung up. I've known a few Jesuits, and argued with them, and read some of their writings, and you argue the same way, that's all. It's sophistry and casuistry used to present a faith-based position as a reason-based position.
More to the point of this thread: society has always accepted that under certain circumstances it's permissible to kill a human being. You believe that Latimer's circumstances aren't among them, and I believe they are. Without modern medical intervention, nature would have killed Tracy Latimer long before her father did. If pressed I'm sure you'd trot out the old "sanctity of human life" argument, that's implicitly what you've been arguing here. I don't buy that argument because it's religiously based. Religion provides a skewed, inaccurate, and inconsistent view of reality, and I don't take it seriously as a source of values. Religion is not where human values come from, they are innate in us as social creatures, religion just provides post facto justification and canonization of them. It doesn't invent them.
I think that those who criticise Latimer, should at least have a viable alternative he could have taken. I see him as a hard working man with a family who had compassion and probably not getting a whole lot of outside help. He sure doesn't need any "holier than thou" passing judgment on him.
Okay, this is not nit picking, only that your statement clarified a thought in my head. Society doesn't say that it is sometimes okay to purposely kill someone, humanity says that. Our society, says it is not okay to kill someone like Tracy Latimer, as she couldn't consent to being killed. Our humanity side says that, when you're somehow stuck outside society, a mercy killing may be overlooked, but, when you're inside our society, you had better follow the rule of law, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. And that does not allow killing someone.
The courts simply could NOT have pardoned his actions here. All across this country there are people in vegetative states in care, whose families would have lost their minds at the thought that Grandma's orderly could now walk in and pull her ventilator out in an act of mercy. Society demanded that he not be excused, that his actions not be accepted.
That being said, the type of crime should have been given stronger consideration, and parole should have come a lot sooner in my opinion. Basically, to boil it down to its simplest terms, I really can't stand in judgement of the human action, only the potential societal ramifications of excusing it.
Indeed, but every senior citizen in hospital has, on their chart, a comment on whether or not they are a DNR order (Do Not Resuscitate), which is supposed to be discussed with the family and documented after admission.
So we've already decided whether or not we'll even bother with granny's ventilator, so to speak.
Yep, no doubt there's several dimensions to this thing, some even I have trouble with. I don't believe in taking a life (either pre birth or post birth, Clifford Olson excepted) without the subject having a say. In that aspect Latimer was wrong. BUT I'm pretty sure Latimer was acting more out of emotion than reason. Tracy was clearly not in a position to have a say based on any meaningful understanding. I don't believe Latimer had much help from any agencies. He probably should have been found guilty of manslaughter and sentencing delayed until such time as he commits another crime. :smile:
Yep, "Granny's" longevity could be inversely proportional to the amount of $ Granny has.
That DNR or (No code) has also been previously discussed with the patient with witnesses present before being put on his/her chart
There are plenty of people, granny or otherwise, in hospital today, who didn't have any living wills, standing orders for whether or not to continue care, etc.
Here, in NB, the doctors are required to specify if a DNR order applies or not. Living wills are a completely different subject. When the admitting doctor does the admission, one of the things that must be specified is the DNR status. And that's what applies.
There are people in comas, hooked up to ventilators, who don't have DNR's, and that's my point. Mercy killing someone who can't consent is a concern.
I don't think I understand the distinction. The society we live in accepts self-defense as an okay reason to purposely kill someone. I do see your point on another level though. The law being what it is, there had to be consequences for Latimer's actions, but it shouldn't have been the ones he got. The first jury that found him guilty seemed to feel the same way, if my memory is correct, it came back with a strong recommendation for clemency because of the circumstances.
The law does not view self defense as purposeful killing. You didn't go out with the intent of killing that person.
Robert Latimer originally gave an account of accidental death to first responders. Only when he was confronted with incontrovertable evidence of homicide did he own up, and subsequently accused the RCMP of 'entrapping' him. In fact all the evidence is that he had considered several ways of murdering Tracy and then hiding evidence of his crime, including burning her body. Only when these plans went aury did suddenly take on the mantle of 'crusading mercy killer'.
Here is an accout of the grisly death he inflicted on Tracy.. in the interests of 'mercy'.
How many remember the ceremony of the father's planned execution? Did he treat her with any dignity as he gathered filty rags from his work shed? Rags is what he used to prop her fragile body up. This has always bother me. This man did not lay her on clean sheets or blankets, nor did he allow her to lay comfortably across the seat of his pickup, but instead, used greasy, blackened. filty, smelly rags that forced her to sit upright. Perhaps he reasoned, "Why waste clean sheets on her when I am going to burn her body anyway?
With new television shows out, like CSI., we are told that victims of crimes and humans who died of natural causes, are respected, and treated with utmost dignity as they try to find the cause of death. I have watched documentaries about coroners. When a dead body is found in the skid row, they are taken to the morgue, where they are respectfully handled. Tracy Latimer's father sat safely in the open air, having the best view from his pick up, and watched her execution patiently as the gas was released into the cab where her unprotected body was forced upright by dirty filty rags, holding her captive - and alone.
The windows were shut tight, so no fresh air could seep in and spare the innocent child from the poisonous gas that would slowly but surely kill her.
Robert Latimer sat out in the fresh -life-giving air, and watched the planned execution of his daughter. The coroner estimated it took about 20 minutes for Tracy to die.
I understand the town of Wilkie, Sask.. might be planning a big welcome home, maybe a parade.. for this hometown hero.
The Jesuit educational tradition, based on the Apostolic inheritance and aimed at developing critical reasoning from an early age has produced some of the great scientific, literary and philosophical figures of their age. It has produced great statesmen and principled business leaders. Sadly it is only available in private institutions these days, replaced in the public system with sentiment and myth laden sophistry.. governed by the indistinct gods of enviro-paganism and moral relativism.
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Cerebral Palsy is not terminal illness. Tracey was disabled, not ill.
As for your comments of religion, i'm reminded of GK Chesterton's remark that those who choose to believe in nothing, end up believing in anything. Which is why the New Age Cults have gained such a hold on our society. None of those is more powerful than the Death Cults that surround, romanticize and ennoble euthenasia and abortion.
This is a letter from a child to the Vancouver Sun, who also suffers from Cerebral Palsy. Basicly his point is that its his life to make what he can of it. This is what Robert Latimer robbed Tracy of. What in his arrogance and callousness he calls mercy. Which is why i think those who put him on a heroic pedestal do not see him for what he really is. He's really just a piece of crud.
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Robert Latimer originally gave an account of accidental death to first responders. Only when he was confronted with incontrovertable evidence of homicide did he own up, and subsequently accused the RCMP of 'entrapping' him. In fact all the evidence is that he had considered several ways of murdering Tracy and then hiding evidence of his crime, including burning her body. Only when these plans went aury did suddenly take on the mantle of 'crusading mercy killer'.
Here is an accout of the grisly death he inflicted on Tracy.. in the interests of 'mercy'.
How many remember the ceremony of the father's planned execution? Did he treat her with any dignity as he gathered filty rags from his work shed? Rags is what he used to prop her fragile body up. This has always bother me. This man did not lay her on clean sheets or blankets, nor did he allow her to lay comfortably across the seat of his pickup, but instead, used greasy, blackened. filty, smelly rags that forced her to sit upright. Perhaps he reasoned, "Why waste clean sheets on her when I am going to burn her body anyway?
With new television shows out, like CSI., we are told that victims of crimes and humans who died of natural causes, are respected, and treated with utmost dignity as they try to find the cause of death. I have watched documentaries about coroners. When a dead body is found in the skid row, they are taken to the morgue, where they are respectfully handled. Tracy Latimer's father sat safely in the open air, having the best view from his pick up, and watched her execution patiently as the gas was released into the cab where her unprotected body was forced upright by dirty filty rags, holding her captive - and alone.
The windows were shut tight, so no fresh air could seep in and spare the innocent child from the poisonous gas that would slowly but surely kill her.
Robert Latimer sat out in the fresh -life-giving air, and watched the planned execution of his daughter. The coroner estimated it took about 20 minutes for Tracy to die.
I understand the town of Wilkie, Sask.. might be planning a big welcome home, maybe a parade.. for this hometown hero.
The Jesuit educational tradition, based on the Apostolic inheritance and aimed at developing critical reasoning from an early age has produced some of the great scientific, literary and philosophical figures of their age. It has produced great statesmen and principled business leaders. Sadly it is only available in private institutions these days, replaced in the public system with sentiment and myth laden sophistry.. governed by the indistinct gods of enviro-paganism and moral relativism.
.
Cerebral Palsy is not terminal illness. Tracey was disabled, not ill.
As for your comments of religion, i'm reminded of GK Chesterton's remark that those who choose to believe in nothing, end up believing in anything. Which is why the New Age Cults have gained such a hold on our society. None of those is more powerful than the Death Cults that surround, romanticize and ennoble euthenasia and abortion.
This is a letter from a child to the Vancouver Sun, who also suffers from Cerebral Palsy. Basicly his point is that its his life to make what he can of it. This is what Robert Latimer robbed Tracy of. What in his arrogance and callousness he calls mercy. Which is why i think those who put him on a heroic pedestal do not see him for what he really is. He's really just a piece of crud.
Give it a long cold f*****g drink already. You (a supposedly compassionate Christian) have your opinion, everyone else in the world differs.