Oh, so the South takes its marching orders from the North now? They need to ask permission to run drills in their own territory?
N. Korea attacks S. Korean island, killing 2 marines
- Thread starter Praxius
- Start date
Oh, so the South takes its marching orders from the North now? They need to ask permission to run drills in their own territory?
Actually that would be disputed territory and yes, a good neighbor would have asked permission first before blowing stuff up right next to the fence.
EAO, all the Korean peninsula is disputed territory.........just one side is led by sane, moderate democrats and the other by Stalinist loonies....you MUST be able to see the difference....
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Ah...I understand!
The South was supposed to ask permission to fire weapons in her own territory..........from the people that just lately torpedoed one of her ships, killing almost 50 of her soldiers............
Thank GOD you aren't running the world!
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As I recall, the North did something similar this summer, and the South did not fire artillery into populated areas in response...
North Korea fires artillery into waters near border with South Korea - Los Angeles Times
The Island that was artillery stuck by the North is only disputed by the North, the Island were deemed to belong to the South at the end of the war. Does North Korea act like a good neighbor and inform the South before torpedoing their ship, did they inform the Japanese before firing missiles over their Island?
You have a serious detachment from reality, Earth, your boot licking of despot regimes is sickening, par for the course with you though.
Your link describes the North's actions as provocative because it affected fishing activity. It doesn't describe the shelling as close to the border or as sustained as the South Korean exercise. Its just hard to tell if we are comparing apples with apples.
But the link does provide an interesting contrast.
North Korean exercises are provocative. South Korea's exercises are harmless.
BTW, when are some of you going to get your own opinions.
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Here, fer God's sake!
NK has ended a 56 year truce........does that finally impress on you who is the aggressor?????
GEEZUS!!!!
Stupidity is an epidemic.
DD, you should be more polite and less arrogant. Neither of us have a monopoly on the truth.
You claim I am detached from reality. I think we have different perceptions of reality.
For example, in your reality, you believe North Korea fires "missiles" over Japanese territory without warning. In my reality, North Korea gave Japan and the world advanced notice before testing a rocket without a weapon payload. It flew over Japan just like the International Space Station does on a regular basis and fell harmlessly into the sea.
MARCH 28, 2009
In my reality, the Northern Limit Line was imposed on North Korea by force (see quote below). In my reality, two countries have to have an agreement in order to settle a border dispute otherwise it remains disputed territory even if one side occupies it by force.
Regarding the recent torpedoing of a South Korean ship. We agree. I'm convinced by the evidence that North Korea was responsible. But in my reality, I believe North Korea's actions probably had something to do with this previous incident which barely made our news.
I'm uncertain what happened here. The MSM kept the story low key. Information about this incident is limited and highly slective. Official statements seem overly careful regarding wording. Biggest clue: Few western leaders condemned the incident. If I was to take an educated guess, I'd say a South Korea ship accidentally crossed the Northern Limit Line, triggering a series of events where both sides violated the NLL and ended with the near sinking of a North Korean ship and many North Korean casualties. I'm pretty skeptical of the MSM version of reality regarding this incident. I am convinced this incident was a factor when a North Korean sub likely torpedoed a South Korean ship a few months later.
Not automatically believing realities created by the MSM and our leaders regarding "axis of evil" countries is hardly "boot licking". I describe myself as skeptical regarding those realities. In 2003, their reality regarding Iraq, included stockpiles of Iraqi WMDs. At the time, my reality regarding Iraq's WMD stockpiles was primarily based on reports by UNMOVIC. In my reality, Iraqi WMD stockpiles remained unproven when the US started a war which has killed tens of thousands of soldiers, hundreds of thousands of civilians and displaced millions more.
Back on subject:
South Korean military sources claim they were firing to the west:
According to my reality, North Korea's undisputed territory is both North and West of Yeonpyeong Island. If South Korea wasn't extremely careful, shells fired to the west could cross the Northern Limit Line.
If South Korea fired a shell west from position 1 (below), it could cross line A, the Northern Limit Line and entered undisputed North Korean territory.
Also I'm curious why anyone would think that South Korean shelling along their border with their hostile neighbor to the north wouldn't be considered provocative. I would think that four and a half hours of exploding ordinance along North Korea's border in this area might have an adverse impact on North Korean fishing and maritime navigation in the area. But that's just my detached version of reality.
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In any other area of the world, the actions of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (now there's irony, if it's ever existed in national nomenclature) would have constituted no less than an act of war. The sticky issue here is the potential that North Korea has, at its disposal, a nuclear arsenal--if world powers were certain that there was no chance of nuclear weaponry, I am confident that there should have been serious military consequences for the regime. The fact that the southern Republic of Korea can't take any substantive action in its own defence, due to this probable nuclear threat, begs the broader question of whether the equal sovereignty of nations can truly exist while proliferation of nuclear weapons is a reality.
In case you aren't aware, North and South Korea remain in a state of war. An armistice is like a ceasefire and usually temporary. Also as Colpy pointed out, North Korea unsigned themselves from the armistice after more than 50 years without a peace treaty. On the surface, North Korea's actions appears aggressive, but they could have other motivations. Their actions could be a result of frustration over South Korea's continued occupation of disputed territories by force and/or an attempt to get a better deal. Regardless, North Korea's actions seem to have little impact on the status quo.
While South Korea may not possess nukes, they are protected by the US which does have nukes. Therefore neither side can afford a hot war due to MAD.
While South Korea may not possess nukes, they are protected by the US which does have nukes. Therefore neither side can afford a hot war due to MAD.
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Foreign and Military Affairs
Chinese FM talks with DPRK, ROK, US on Korean issue
(Xinhua)
Updated: 2010-11-26 22:13
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Large Medium Small BEIJING - Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi met with Ambassador of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) to China, and held phone conversation with his counterparts of the United States and the Republic of Korea (ROK) on Friday.
They exchanged views on issues including the situation of the Korean Peninsula, according to a statement released Friday night by the Chinese Foreign Ministry.
Chinese FM talks with DPRK, ROK, US on Korean issue
(Xinhua)
Updated: 2010-11-26 22:13
They exchanged views on issues including the situation of the Korean Peninsula, according to a statement released Friday night by the Chinese Foreign Ministry.
It appears this incident isn't over. Today North Korea did some drills of their own, right after an American general toured the island. On Sunday, the USS Washington (an American aircraft carrier) arrives with a small armada to participate in more South Korean live fire exercises. Things could heat up again.
While North and South Korea remain at war, both sides can legally attack each other. As Colpy pointed out, North Korea unsigned themselves from the armistice, so neither side is bound by that agreement. Most of the time, both sides behave as though the agreement still applies.
UN conventions regarding the conduct of war prohibit deliberate or indiscriminate attacks against civilians or civilian infrastructure. In this incident, North Korea appears to have only targeted South Korean military positions. Nearby civilian structures were damaged by the shelling and subsequent forest fires. South Korea civilian casualties appear limited to civilians working at military sites, which belies claims that North Korea "indiscriminately fired shells into unarmed civilian areas".
I understand why soldiers like to blow things up. It keeps them ready for the real thing and its fun. But maybe South Korea should conduct training exercises further away from the NLL and in a manner that doesn't piss off North Korea. In other words, try to behave like a good neighbor.
I understand why North Korea would be pissed by South Korea's live fire exercises a few millimeters from their border. But until South Korea actually causes damage, they have to no excuse to deliberately attack South Korea. If all South Korea's actions did was disrupt North Korean fishing and navigation, then an appropriate tit-for-tat response would be to conduct their own live fire exercises in an area that would disrupt South Korean fishing and navigation. North Korea escalating the conflict to cause lethal consequences is just asking for trouble.
Its difficult to determine who is at fault, because it all depends on whether South Korean artillery fire crossed the Northern Limit Line into North Korean territory. Even if South Korean live fire exercises were limited to the South Koreans side of the NLL, their actions were close enough to North Korea to have an impact on North Korean shipping and fishing activities in the area, which makes South Korea's actions disruptive and deliberately provocative.
While North and South Korea remain at war, both sides can legally attack each other. As Colpy pointed out, North Korea unsigned themselves from the armistice, so neither side is bound by that agreement. Most of the time, both sides behave as though the agreement still applies.
UN conventions regarding the conduct of war prohibit deliberate or indiscriminate attacks against civilians or civilian infrastructure. In this incident, North Korea appears to have only targeted South Korean military positions. Nearby civilian structures were damaged by the shelling and subsequent forest fires. South Korea civilian casualties appear limited to civilians working at military sites, which belies claims that North Korea "indiscriminately fired shells into unarmed civilian areas".
I think North Korea wants to keep this war luke warm, for internal domestic political reasons and for negotiation purposes. I believe they were waiting for an excuse to attack this island. South Korea's live fire exercise probably did cross the NLL, by a very narrow margin, triggering North Korea's response. Moral of the story? If South Korea doesn't want a fight with North Korea, then this live fire exercise so close to the NLL was a bad idea. Another live fire exercise with US involvement in the same area, a few millimeters away from the NLL would also be a bad idea.
I understand why soldiers like to blow things up. It keeps them ready for the real thing and its fun. But maybe South Korea should conduct training exercises further away from the NLL and in a manner that doesn't piss off North Korea. In other words, try to behave like a good neighbor.
I understand why North Korea would be pissed by South Korea's live fire exercises a few millimeters from their border. But until South Korea actually causes damage, they have to no excuse to deliberately attack South Korea. If all South Korea's actions did was disrupt North Korean fishing and navigation, then an appropriate tit-for-tat response would be to conduct their own live fire exercises in an area that would disrupt South Korean fishing and navigation. North Korea escalating the conflict to cause lethal consequences is just asking for trouble.
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North Korea is rule by an insane dictator unhinged by a life long paranoid struggle against the rest of the world while being fed tidbits by China for it's own agenda. The kook is now handing down the insane asylum to the next generation of social defects and hopes to do so in a spectacular way.
Those who have entered North Korea with cameras have shown that the country is as messed up as any country could possibly be. Even Iran isn't as backward as North Korea. Time has come to put an end to this bat**** crazy country and the kooks who hold the people hostage.
Affected fishing activity? They seized a fishing boat, and then fired artillery over the line, the exact same thing that they accuse SK of doing now. Only SK didn't target civilian areas in response...
Are you the opinion cop here? Pay more attention. I explained already why I think the NK regime is deranged and a bully. Those are value statements, and thus it's an opinion...an opinion informed by accounts from defectors, and my personal understanding of the definition for bully.
Now shove off.
I don't believe in double standards. If a North Korean live fire exercise can be considered an escalation or provocative then, the same must apply to South Korean live fire exercises, especially when they conducted along or possibly across the border.
I apologize if my post belittled your opinion. I did not intend to sound like that. Now you shove off...
Sure, but you are steadfastly refusing to acknowledge reality here. Did South Korea retaliate by firing rounds into a civilian area? Simple yes or no will do.
No, you didn't acknowledge that some of us even have them, which would seem to be an implicit suggestion that we're just parroting someone else. That, is not only belittling, it is highly ironic.
You're talking about two countries that are technically still at war. The Korean war never officially ended. South Korea made a moronic move with their repeated military exercises and getting way to close to the North's territory to where possibly shells landed.
Now you want to cry when the North reacts? lol.
Regardless of the weirdo regime and brainwashed society of North Korea, that won't cloud my judgment and automatically side with the South. I look at facts and not propaganda. South Korea was really dumb and ignored warnings from the North Koreans, the north didn't just hit them out of the blue.
Do you believe that North Korea retaliated by firing rounds into a civilian area? Link please...
According to everything I read, North Korea directed their fire primarily at military targets. If they deliberately targeted a village full of civilians, I'd expect many civilians would have died. The only civilian casualties were contractors working at a South Korean military site. North Korea's barrage also started a forest fire which spread to civilian areas causing substantial property damage, but didn't kill anyone.
What do you think happened?
Pal you don't have any judgement to cloud LOL.
You are quite ignorant. Your ignorance can't even be blamed on being sheltered from the facts. It is in fact a choice to be ignorant and that makes your post all the more pathetic. Carry on.