Should the death penalty for murder be reintroduced?

Should the death penalty be the default punishment for clearly proven murders?

  • Yes, within reasonable parameters and with the option of life at the judge's discretion.

    Votes: 9 36.0%
  • No.

    Votes: 15 60.0%
  • Other answer.

    Votes: 1 4.0%

  • Total voters
    25

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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The problem with your premise is the idea that it must be clear the person was "unquestionably guilty".

How is that different from "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt"?

I do see a difference. Beyond reasonable doubt suggests to me that it's highly unlikely the person did not commit the crime. Unquestionably guilty tells me that there is no room for error, such as plenty of witnesses, video evidence, multiple sources of forensic evidence such as finger prints, DNA, tire marks, etc. all pointing to the same person, taped uncoerced confession, etc. That seems to me to be a higher degree of certainty that just beyond reasonable doubt.

I imagine that those on the jury in the trials of the wrongfully accused were sure he was guilty.....especially those misled by the psychotic and/or incompetent government pathologist.

Agreed. And guilty beyond reasonable doubt should suffice for a life sentence. However, when the evidence is absolutely overhelming, such as taped crimes confessed to, etc. then while the judge should still have the freedom to give a life sentence, death should be the default unless the judge decides otherwise.

Here's my proposal, as I have put forth many times before.........execution for mass killers.

That I can certainly agree with.

Each murder tried individually...........each murder by law tried in front of a different judge, and a different jury...........each sentence passed down separately.....but on the third (and subsequent) convictions for murder, the judge has the option of sentencing the individual to death........within 30 days.

Here you seem to be following along a similar idea as mine, of not being satisfied with simply 'beyond reasonable doubt', expecting a very high level of probability beyond what we'd expect for a simple prison sentence.

I also like the idea of a cut-off period. After all, if somehow the convict manages to survive beyond the cut-off date owing to appeals, questionable evidence, or whatever other delay, then maybe the evidence is not strong enough for death, and so it automatically defaults to life. That could also avoid spending tax dollars on appeal after appeal, etc. If after the cut off period he's still alive, then it's too late for the state to kill him and he lives.

Some people are so evil they need to be cut away from the body of society and disposed of in the most effective, efficient way.......

Agreed. Though I would say all persons deserve a proper burial, even if not for their sakes, for the sake of family who may have loved them at one point, so as to reduce the trauma on others.

Who said anything about a confession? Plenty of people have been convicted erroneously without a confession. This is a red herring.
Some do confess. Some do tape the crimes. Some do leave plenty of evidence behind. Certainly you won't through that in the same category as those without confession, no video or picture of the crimes, and forensic evidence from only one or few pathologists.



Because overwhelming evidence can still lead to wrongful convictions.

I won't deny that. That said, if the bar is raised much higher than simply 'beyond reasonable doubt', the chances of it happening are greatly reduced.

Are you willing to give up your life for this? It could happen.

Yes, it could. The chances of it happening would be slim. But that said, if the evidence was that overwhelming, then I'd be pretty well guaranteed life in prison anyway, and between that and death, it wouldn't make a big difference to me anyway.
 

Ariadne

Council Member
Aug 7, 2006
2,432
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This is kind of like asking whether Canada should continue to believe in rehabilitation, or whether the justice system should become exclusively punitive.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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This is kind of like asking whether Canada should continue to believe in rehabilitation, or whether the justice system should become exclusively punitive.

The two are not necessarily exclusive. If someone steals a loaf of bread because he was hungry and could not find a job because of a lack of education let's say, then yes, I could certainly see helping him out. We're not talking about someone stealing bread here, a person who should commit murder.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
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I like your sense of humour. Now back on topic...

As for retribution, it's not really a matter of retribution of of justice carried out in an economically efficient manner.

As for selfishness, I have no issue paying taxes; it's a matter of where that money goes. I'd rather my tax dollars go towards paying off the national debt or education rather than feeding a murderer. Besides, if that murderer works hard and supports himself and maybe even ends up paying some taxes, then we could consider that a kind of amends to society in that he's still making a contribution to society from prison.


I'm not laughing, and personally don't find discussions concerning the taking of life to be amusing in the least.

So, you feel killing is an economical and efficient form of punishment, correct?

and what would you have done with those criminals that refuse to do the work you are talking about?
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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Ottawa, ON
I'm not laughing, and personally don't find discussions concerning the taking of life to be amusing in the least.

Good.

So, you feel killing is an economical and efficient form of punishment, correct?
And just, for murderers.

and what would you have done with those criminals that refuse to do the work you are talking about?

Well, if I don't work, I starve. Why should it be any different for a criminal? Is prison supposed to be a reward or a punishment?
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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Good.


And just, for murderers.



Well, if I don't work, I starve. Why should it be any different for a criminal? Is prison supposed to be a reward or a punishment?


Ok, so if they kill, you kill, and if they don't do as you say or want, you kill. Got it.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Ok, so if they kill, you kill, and if they don't do as you say or want, you kill. Got it.

Not quite. If I don't work out of choice, then society has no obligation to feed me and so I starve. That does not equate to society killing me. So if a prisoner refuses to work out of choice, and suffers no physical or mental impediment to work, then just like anyone else, he doesn't get paid and so has no money with which to buy his food. That does not equate to society killing him any more than it would equate to society killing me.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Some do confess. Some do tape the crimes. Some do leave plenty of evidence behind. Certainly you won't through that in the same category as those without confession, no video or picture of the crimes, and forensic evidence from only one or few pathologists.

It's unrelated to my question...

I won't deny that. That said, if the bar is raised much higher than simply 'beyond reasonable doubt', the chances of it happening are greatly reduced.

There is no bar beyond "beyond reasonable doubt"...

Yes, it could. The chances of it happening would be slim.

That's hardly consoling to the victims of a miscarriage of justice. I can't imagine anyone who values their own life, and their time with their family that they would be so apathetic about living or dying, all for a nickle on every dollar of tax collected from you...
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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Not quite. If I don't work out of choice, then society has no obligation to feed me and so I starve. That does not equate to society killing me. So if a prisoner refuses to work out of choice, and suffers no physical or mental impediment to work, then just like anyone else, he doesn't get paid and so has no money with which to buy his food. That does not equate to society killing him any more than it would equate to society killing me.

Sorry, society also doesn't tell you where you have to live and what you have to do to earn your living. Society hasn't restricted your movements or liberty in any way. Not providing food and shelter to those that you have incarcerated IS murder.

You expect society to provide you with security and safety yet you are unwilling to pay the bill for that. That to me is selfishness.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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Sorry, society also doesn't tell you where you have to live and what you have to do to earn your living. Society hasn't restricted your movements or liberty in any way. Not providing food and shelter to those that you have incarcerated IS murder.

I will agree that we need to guarantee work for all, and not just prisoners. If a prisoner can't find work owing to lack of education for example, yes we should provide him with the necessary education and even provide him with room and board during that time. That said, if it's a question of choosing not to work, that's a whole different ballgame.

You expect society to provide you with security and safety yet you are unwilling to pay the bill for that. That to me is selfishness.

I challenge you to find one quote of mine complaining that my taxes are too high. My issue is not with how much I pay in taxes, but rather with how that money is spent. Why should inmates not make a contribution too?

Just to clarify about selfishness. I have no issue with paying more in taxes to pay off government debt, or to provide for education for example. Beyond that though, criminals should contribute by way of either fines if they don't go to prison, prison labour if they go to prison, or death if they get capital punishment. Again, it's not a matter of me not wanting to pay taxes, but wanting to ensure the money goes to the right place.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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you're still not getting what you are saying, either that or you are being purposely obtuse.

If an inmate decides NOT to work, you have advocated letting him starve to death. That is tantamount to killing him as society has complete control of him while he is incarcerated.

Therefore you advocate killing of murderers, and killing of those, thru starvation, those that refuse to do what you tell them.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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Ottawa, ON
How long of a running start should I give you?

If I murder someone, don't give me any running start; tie me up to a pole and bring in the firing squad, or give me a life of hard labour.

you're still not getting what you are saying, either that or you are being purposely obtuse.

If an inmate decides NOT to work, you have advocated letting him starve to death. That is tantamount to killing him as society has complete control of him while he is incarcerated.

Therefore you advocate killing of murderers, and killing of those, thru starvation, those that refuse to do what you tell them.

Society may have complete control over him, and so has an obligation to ensure work is available. Of course we need to be reasonable, and all labour laws that apply to us should apply to them too. That said, if I refuse to work when I clearly have an opportunity to work, I starve. Why should a prisoner be better treated than I am?
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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If I murder someone, don't give me any running start; tie me up to a pole and bring in the firing squad, or give me a life of hard labour.
There is no such thing as murder if you have no right to life.
 

Spade

Ace Poster
Nov 18, 2008
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Aether Island
Most, if not all, outside the armed forces or law enforcement agencies, who take a life in other than self defence, are mentally ill. A society which wishes to be considered civilized would not impose a death penalty.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
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63
Nakusp, BC
Most, if not all, outside the armed forces or law enforcement agencies, who take a life in other than self defence, are mentally ill. A society which wishes to be considered civilized would not impose a death penalty.
Perhaps you are on to something. The death penalty would confirm our collective insanity. Doesn't politics and our so called justice system drive everyone nuts.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Is it a justice system or simply a legal system?
It's supposed to be both.




Hubba hubba!

This what we really have.