Free will versus determinism

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Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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You say that you don't know whether he's right or wrong about determinism, and then you say that he hasn't proven his claims. How do you know this?
Because unlike Lessans I know what mathematical and scientific proof mean, what good evidence is, and what a well reasoned argument is, and he doesn't present any of them. Try this for starters: can you imagine any evidence that could prove he's wrong? Probably not, you've said repeatedly that his claims are undeniable. So does he, and that's one of the hallmarks of a quack. Any serious critical thinker is always aware of the possibility of being wrong. If no conceivable evidence could prove he's wrong, then the evidence in his favour doesn't matter either, his claims are immune to any kind of evidence and are thus, in the words of one of my favourite professors, propositionally vacuous.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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peacegirl; said:
JLM, are you being facetious? If someone was incapable of performing certain functions because of a handicap, someone would have to take responsibility for them. You are beginning to sound sarcastic so I refuse to answer your other question.



JLM, I'm surprised. If you can so easily agree with a man who came here with the most vengeful, mean-spirited attack on me I have ever witnessed, then we cannot talk anymore. I'm sorry but I am flabergasted that you would go along with his insane diatribe against me. Do you really believe his vicious words? If anyone else in here agrees with him, let me know and we can end the conversation right now.

Glad you said that, that kind of kills that theory, after all we are all handicapped to some degree, so once you start making concessions you are right back to square one.

I was under the impression it was a woman I was agreeing with but no matter he/she has hit on the very things that struck me. I see it as an obsession, if don't want to face that fact, then by all means don't discuss anything further with me, but that won't change anything.
 
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MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Would it be forward thinking of God to give the final figures as fractions rather than real numbers that way our population could be as low as 600,000 worldwide or as high as we could possibly get it and the prophecies would come through as determined.

God would have had use of His free-will to 'determine how things' would be fixed if they got broken. The option of fixing them was never an option because before the 'new earth' could be 'created' it had to be 'in the works' before the end of the 6th day just because nothing new can exist after the end of that day. Law made it possible to set a time for judgment and punishment and renewal into the care of God as they were originally made. That is who alive and walking around in Re.21. Were God to send any of their children there it is not impossible that they would intentionally sin just so they could comfort them in some fashion. Since there is no 7th day God never leaves mankind alone and that means they cannot fall into sin and they cannot be sent to the 2nd death. If mankind is given a reward what reward would Angels receive . Since none of them could ever fall into temptation it might be a good time to lift that 'ban on marriage' in that none of their children could ever fall into league with the fallen angels and since they never fall they are never in danger of losing a 'child' to the lake.

That is just the broad picture, He is just as careful with the nitty-gritty parts of the 'operation'. Just as in Ge.1 it is a plan that has two phases, God said and then it was done. All the necessary words have be spoken (verified by being in print) and the only remaining thing is the 'and it was done' phase. Two of those remain, the one sopken near the end of Re:16 and the other at the beginning of Re:21.

All of that can be determined by reading the verses and it can't be changed according to more words ,in those very same Scriptures, for a gentler version. It is enough to assure there is only one possible outcome.
Jer:4:27: For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
Jer:4:28: For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
Jer:4:29:
The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen;
they shall go into thickets,
and climb up upon the rocks:
every city shall be forsaken,
and not a man dwell therein.
 

Bcool

Dilettante
Aug 5, 2010
383
2
18
Vancouver Island B.C.
JLM, are you being facetious? If someone was incapable of performing certain functions because of a handicap, someone would have to take responsibility for them. You are beginning to sound sarcastic so I refuse to answer your other question.


JLM, I'm surprised. If you can so easily agree with a man who came here with the most vengeful, mean-spirited attack on me I have ever witnessed, then we cannot talk anymore. I'm sorry but I am flabergasted that you would go along with his insane diatribe against me. Do you really believe his vicious words? If anyone else in here agrees with him, let me know and we can end the conversation right now.
****[underlining & bold highlighting is mine: Bcool]

I would prefer that you consider what I politely suggested to you, however, ITMT I think you need to reread the book:

Peacegirl #312: "When you know you are not going to be blamed for what you do it also means that you must assume complete responsibility for what you do because you cannot shift it away from yourself under the changed conditions. . . . When he knows in advance that no matter what he does to hurt others the response will be one of no blame because the world knows his will is not free — he cannot find justification for what he is about to do. In other words, the knowledge that the world must excuse what he can no longer justify prevents the desire to take even the slightest chance of hurting another. Under these conditions, responsibility reaches a level never seen before in all of history."

You just blamed me. Que?

Responsibility? Of course, happily take full responsibility for what I wrote. Problem is, if you honestly live by Lessans' credo, can you for what you wrote?:

  • most vengeful, mean-spirited attack on me I have ever witnessed

  • insane diatribe against me

  • vicious words
To repeat, please get an accredited medical professional's opinion re your health. What can it hurt to do so?
_______________________________________
 

peacegirl

Electoral Member
Aug 23, 2010
199
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Blameless society - no evil - no choice?

This sounds like robot-town. The beauty of human nature is we have the ability (in most cases having normal mind and body) of making choices in our lives.

I visit this lengthy exposition of Lessans' minor thoughts and the devotion paid to him and compare it with my daily visit to the webpage of a tiny just turned five year old girl who has been battling a vicious form of cancer - since the age of two - never knowing much of normal life other than what she can eke out between rounds of injections, radiation, terrible physical reaction, and yet she and her family accept and go on with her education, her ability to laugh to enjoy the tiny moments of happiness she finds between the horrors and know there are reasons- even in this most violent of cruel games nature can play - there has to be reason and choice - we are not, nor ever will be automatons following the same call of the same pied piper.

Anyone who promotes this has never lived in reality enough to fully expand his/her gifts given to all of us through living, learning and growth.

There is no yellow brick road - never has been one way only - only paralyzing fear to step beyond into the real world. Lessans in his prose of echolalia gives his devotees a reason to avoid living and growth through avoidance of experiencing all - both good and bad. Which in itself actually denies what we humans call "life".

Reading the path the young child has followed for most of her life, who has the smile of an angel - has far more to share and learn from that the impossibly selfish and
ignorant choices made and espoused by Lessans.

I was looking over the posts and I want to add something. I am really surprised that you have concluded we will be automatons following some pied piper. Who is the pied piper? This is not a cult, nor is it about devotees. :-( The truth is we are all subject to the hand we are dealt, and it's how we respond that makes all the difference. I admire this little girl's family for finding a way to continue on in spite of the very difficult hand they were dealt. I really don't know where you are coming from Curiosity. I know I rub you the wrong way, but you've made a lot of false assumptions about this book, myself, and Lessans that are categorically wrong.

Because unlike Lessans I know what mathematical and scientific proof mean, what good evidence is, and what a well reasoned argument is, and he doesn't present any of them. Try this for starters: can you imagine any evidence that could prove he's wrong? Probably not, you've said repeatedly that his claims are undeniable. So does he, and that's one of the hallmarks of a quack. Any serious critical thinker is always aware of the possibility of being wrong. If no conceivable evidence could prove he's wrong, then the evidence in his favour doesn't matter either, his claims are immune to any kind of evidence and are thus, in the words of one of my favourite professors, propositionally vacuous.

Yes, there is evidence that could prove him wrong or right. If his observations do not pan out in reality, he would be wrong. This knowledge is falsifiable and can be tested empirically.

****[underlining & bold highlighting is mine: Bcool]

I would prefer that you consider what I politely suggested to you, however, ITMT I think you need to reread the book:

Peacegirl #312: "When you know you are not going to be blamed for what you do it also means that you must assume complete responsibility for what you do because you cannot shift it away from yourself under the changed conditions. . . . When he knows in advance that no matter what he does to hurt others the response will be one of no blame because the world knows his will is not free — he cannot find justification for what he is about to do. In other words, the knowledge that the world must excuse what he can no longer justify prevents the desire to take even the slightest chance of hurting another. Under these conditions, responsibility reaches a level never seen before in all of history."

You just blamed me. Que?[/quoe]

Oh my gosh. We're not in the new world bcool. And you have struck a very mean blow to me. I am entitled to strike back at you. It's funny, you think you snared me into a trap that you actually believe proves this knowledge wrong. :p

Responsibility? Of course, happily take full responsibility for what I wrote. Problem is, if you honestly live by Lessans' credo, can you for what you wrote?:

  • most vengeful, mean-spirited attack on me I have ever witnessed
  • insane diatribe against me
  • vicious words
To repeat, please get an accredited medical professional's opinion re your health. What can it hurt to do so?
_______________________________________

Your words were vengeful, mean-spirited and vicious. Go read your post again. It was full of diatribes. I think you need a heart check, and not the physical kind.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
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63
California
peacegirl

Yes I have become more and more testy with you and your posts to the membership here but I find your rigidity odd when based upon a forum whose purpose is to share ideas and offer new concepts of thought and belief.

You have come here with a whip-like attitude towards those who disagree or argue - which indicates to me there is little discussion to be held.

I am however enjoying the reactions you receive from the other membership and assures me there are some very deep thinkers on this forum which is a quality unique when compared with some social meeting places.

I have PM'd you regarding the little girl.

You may not have realized this point but I believe you have brought out the best in many of the writers here who probably come to relax and share a few laughs - but you have succeeded in bringing out some truly
excellent thoughts - whether you agree or not with the writers' ideas.

Some day I hope you will try a little exercise on this or another forum - take a deep breath and write: "I agree - that thought is excellent and interesting - it is one I haven't considered before and would like to incorporate it....."

It is possible you will feel some relief and the rigidity of your response both physical and mental might also benefit - especially when we are all handicapped
from lack of facial or body expression. I guarantee it will lighten your life.
 
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peacegirl

Electoral Member
Aug 23, 2010
199
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peacegirl

Yes I have become more and more testy with you and your posts to the membership here but I find your rigidity odd when based upon a forum whose purpose is to share ideas and offer new concepts of thought and belief.

I have said mentioned before that I have tried these philosophy forums to see how it would work out, and it's been a dismal failure. And there is a saying that to do something over and over and get the same results is insanity. I believe that's true, so I will try to do something different when the book is finally published. I have found a hatred toward me I never expected. People call me a preacher, a troll, and a scammer. It's really sad how this has all turned out.

You have come here with a whip-like attitude towards those who disagree or argue - which indicates to me there is little discussion to be held.

If someone disagreed with one plus one equals two, I would react the same way, wouldn't you? The only difference is that people don't know whether this knowledge is genuine or not, and for this reason there is so much frustration on both sides.

curiosity said:
I am however enjoying the reactions you receive from the other membership and assures me there are some very deep thinkers on this forum which is a quality unique when compared with some social meeting places.

The interaction was okay for awhile, but now people are telling me I'm obsessed. I call it passion. People can spin anything they want to make something appear other than what it is. I can't fight against this tide of new attacks on my very character. It drains me.

curiosity said:
I have PM'd you regarding the little girl.

Thank you. I tried to access it, but it says my email doesn't exist. I've had this email for years so I don't know what's going on. I would have liked to offer my best wishes to this wonderful family.

curiosity said:
You may not have realized this point but I believe you have brought out the best in many of the writers here who probably come to relax and share a few laughs - but you have succeeded in bringing out some truly
excellent thoughts - whether you agree or not with the writers' ideas.

I do what everyone else does. I listen, I hear, and I try to be objective. But I try very hard not to personally attack anyone, which some people in here have not done.

curiosity said:
Some day I hope you will try a little exercise on this or another forum - take a deep breath and write: "I agree - that thought is excellent and interesting - it is one I haven't considered before and would like to incorporate it....."

It is possible you will feel some relief and the rigidity of your response both physical and mental might also benefit - especially when we are all handicapped
from lack of facial or body expression. I guarantee it will lighten your life.

I don't mind saying "I agree" curiosity, WHEN I AGREE. I will not compromise myself just to satisfy those who resent me for not agreeing with them on a topic that I understand a lot better than they do. I know, I know, this will cause another tirade against me. And when I complain about these attacks, people call me a victim or a whiner. It's a set up for me to fail, but it's not the fault of the people. It's the venue when we are void of facial or body expression, or the ability to really study the actual work together. I'm sure it would change some minds.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Peacegirl

I know what you are saying - but I was like you when I first started on forums - I argued - found only the posts I disagreed with worth my time and got into terrible fights. Then I realized I wasn't learning anything, nobody offered anything in the way of ideas or advice (why would they) - and I was coming off as if I knew everything - and I don't. Nobody has that capacity. There are always others who have "been there done that" or who are educated and/or trained in something we can learn about.

Disagreeing right out of the cage will get you into another cage of your own making and while your "cause" ie: Lessans - appears to be one of difficulty in being accepted, you are conversing with some very good people who have interests which you might spend some of your time learning about as well.

Whether you agree or not - compliments can be given for an excellent rebuttal.....I live by the rule and find it easier to share ideas in open talk rather than "veiled" insincerity or sarcasm. You don't have to agree with everything, but you can at least offer a kind response rather than a negative "no no no" which inhibits further
discussion.

It also brings more smiles to your life.

About the website - people have to register at the beginning I think - I forgot about that sorry....

Curio
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
peacegirl

Yes I have become more and more testy with you and your posts to the membership here but I find your rigidity odd when based upon a forum whose purpose is to share ideas and offer new concepts of thought and belief.

You have come here with a whip-like attitude towards those who disagree or argue - which indicates to me there is little discussion to be held.

I am however enjoying the reactions you receive from the other membership and assures me there are some very deep thinkers on this forum which is a quality unique when compared with some social meeting places.

I have PM'd you regarding the little girl.

You may not have realized this point but I believe you have brought out the best in many of the writers here who probably come to relax and share a few laughs - but you have succeeded in bringing out some truly
excellent thoughts - whether you agree or not with the writers' ideas.

Some day I hope you will try a little exercise on this or another forum - take a deep breath and write: "I agree - that thought is excellent and interesting - it is one I haven't considered before and would like to incorporate it....."

It is possible you will feel some relief and the rigidity of your response both physical and mental might also benefit - especially when we are all handicapped
from lack of facial or body expression. I guarantee it will lighten your life.

I couldn't have said it better, Curio.........in fact I think this whole thread is bordering on spam.

peacegirl; said:
I don't mind saying "I agree" curiosity, WHEN I AGREE. I will not compromise myself just to satisfy those who resent me for not agreeing with them on a topic that I understand a lot better than they do. I know, I know, this will cause another tirade against me. And when I complain about these attacks, people call me a victim or a whiner. It's a set up for me to fail, but it's not the fault of the people. It's the venue when we are void of facial or body expression, or the ability to really study the actual work together. I'm sure it would change some minds.

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, but there are gracious ways to disagree, Like "that is an interesting idea, but I'm going to have to give it more thought before I can agree with it." I've asked you numerous questions which you've either ignored, refused to answer or have answered in such a way as to strenghten my original contention. The fact that you are focused on yourself has been made very clear. (Poor me, people hate me, the forum has been a failure, I won't debate with you anymore are all ploys at getting pity. I told you in a previous post to drop the "balloon" it popped already and find another balloon to run with. How many times did Thomas Edison "fail" before he succeed?
 
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karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
Well peacegirl... it looks like once again you've come to a forum of dullards who simply can't read and comprehend the study material you've given. Surely at this point you must realize how hard life is for those like you and your dad, who are smarter than everyone else. Perhaps you should try a Mensa forum? They're smart, perhaps even smart enough to get what your message is.
 

peacegirl

Electoral Member
Aug 23, 2010
199
0
16
Peacegirl

I know what you are saying - but I was like you when I first started on forums - I argued - found only the posts I disagreed with worth my time and got into terrible fights. Then I realized I wasn't learning anything, nobody offered anything in the way of ideas or advice (why would they) - and I was coming off as if I knew everything - and I don't. Nobody has that capacity. There are always others who have "been there done that" or who are educated and/or trained in something we can learn about.

I never said or implied I know everything. But I DO KNOW SOME THINGS. I have something very worthy of consideration, and no one is taking the time to truly understand what I'm conveying. They will use the excuse that I don't know what I'm talking about. It's nuts. It goes round and round, yet I do know what I'm talking about and until people know what it is I know about, they will continue this crazy attack on me. You never asked me one question curiosity in regard to this book. And yet somehow, I believe if you really did give it time, you would completely change your tone of voice; your tune, and your self-righteous anger. But you won't give me that chance, so I have to let it go.

curiosity said:
Disagreeing right out of the cage will get you into another cage of your own making and while your "cause" ie: Lessans - appears to be one of difficulty in being accepted, you are conversing with some very good people who have interests which you might spend some of your time learning about as well.

I have no doubt the people in here are very well versed in many areas of intellect, but that does not take away from this discovery. The reasoning here is really lacking. I am shocked by the conclusions people draw without any reason except that they don't like to be told they don't understand.

curiosity said:
Whether you agree or not - compliments can be given for an excellent rebuttal.....I live by the rule and find it easier to share ideas in open talk rather than "veiled" insincerity or sarcasm. You don't have to agree with everything, but you can at least offer a kind response rather than a negative "no no no" which inhibits further
discussion.

I will take your advice because it makes sense. I want to give credit to everyone, and I will continue to do that as long as I'm here. Thank you curiosity for a great suggestion. But I need to defend myself where certain things need defending. I have never given an open idea that was veiled in insincerity. Do you see how you went from something truly worth considering, to something totally incongruent with your previous thought?

curiosity said:
It also brings more smiles to your life.

About the website - people have to register at the beginning I think - I forgot about that sorry....

Curio

They should have mentioned that. I can't go back at this time, but if you are connected with this family, please mention (if you remember, I would never expect you to do this for me) that a friend wishes this family the best in every way. :)
 
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Bcool

Dilettante
Aug 5, 2010
383
2
18
Vancouver Island B.C.
Oh my gosh. We're not in the new world bcool. And you have struck a very mean blow to me. I am entitled to strike back at you. It's funny, you think you snared me into a trap that you actually believe proves this knowledge wrong.
Your words were vengeful, mean-spirited and vicious. Go read your post again. It was full of diatribes. I think you need a heart check, and not the physical kind.

And with every word you are validating my personal opinion and invalidating your claims. I'm not going to "fight" with you. I have been as tactful as I can, your responses speak for themselves, I need say nothing in response as you unknowingly or, for some unfathomable reason, knowingly condemn yourself. I would suggest that you are unable to deal logically with anything you perceive as opposition or a deliberate trap/snare; while perceiving refusal to unquestioningly accept what you state as irrefutable truth and/or fact as a personal attack. That is not rational. :pain10: :banghead:
___________________
 

peacegirl

Electoral Member
Aug 23, 2010
199
0
16
Peacegirl

I know what you are saying - but I was like you when I first started on forums - I argued - found only the posts I disagreed with worth my time and got into terrible fights.

Hold it right there. I do listen to everyone's comments. I always take them into consideration before giving my thoughts. You are comparing me to you. You are assuming that the knowledge I am bringing here is worthy of contempt. I have to let go curiosity, because this post makes no sense to me.

curiosity said:
Then I realized I wasn't learning anything, nobody offered anything in the way of ideas or advice (why would they) - and I was coming off as if I knew everything - and I don't. Nobody has that capacity. There are always others who have "been there done that" or who are educated and/or trained in something we can learn about.

OH MY GODDDDD, I never said I know everything. You are taking things so out of context I am without words. I know you will freak out when I use Einstein as an example, but think about it. How could Einstein share his knowledge if people thought like you did? If they thought by people disagreeing, that made Einstein wrong, we would never be where we are today. It just so happens that Einstein was Jewish, and so was Lessans, not that that means anything, but it is a factor that I hope you consider. I know I will be beaten up for this, and I'm not sure I can handle it. :(

curiosity said:
Disagreeing right out of the cage will get you into another cage of your own making and while your "cause" ie: Lessans - appears to be one of difficulty in being accepted, you are conversing with some very good people who have interests which you might spend some of your time learning about as well.

When did I ever say that the people I am conversing with are not good people. Come on Curiosity. Tell me the truth.

curiosity said:
Whether you agree or not - compliments can be given for an excellent rebuttal.....I live by the rule and find it easier to share ideas in open talk rather than "veiled" insincerity or sarcasm. You don't have to agree with everything, but you can at least offer a kind response rather than a negative "no no no" which inhibits further
discussion.

You have no idea how much I care for everyone here. But I cannot coddle people because of their title, when they don't have a clue about this knowledge. I don't believe in titles. It's just another way to skirt the issue, or to ignore anyone who gives a different opinion than what the consenus dictates. This again is ABSOLUTELY NUTS.

curiosity said:
It also brings more smiles to your life.

About the website - people have to register at the beginning I think - I forgot about that sorry....

Curio

I have enough smiles in my life, but just as anyone who wants to help the world, my happiness is not just about me. It's about all those who are not as happy because they were not given the same opportunities as me, which is not fair. This discovery corrects these inhumanities whether you are able to see why, or not.

And with every word you are validating my personal opinion and invalidating your claims. I'm not going to "fight" with you. I have been as tactful as I can, your responses speak for themselves, I need say nothing in response as you unknowingly or, for some unfathomable reason, knowingly condemn yourself. I would suggest that you are unable to deal logically with anything you perceive as opposition or a deliberate trap/snare; while perceiving refusal to unquestioningly accept what you state as irrefutable truth and/or fact as a personal attack. That is not rational. :pain10: :banghead:
___________________

I really don't care about your personal opinion Bcool. You are no better than anyone else, even with your 'professional opinion' which you value so highly. You are trying so hard to make me wrong, but you can't do this if I'm not wrong. And you have no way of knowing this if you didn't study the book. So why don't you just cool down Bcool (how hypocritical can anyone get) and just relax. I don't want you to have a heart attack on account of me. :(
 
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Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Peacegirl

I didn't need to query you about Lessans - the other writers were asking far more objective questions than I could construct.

When I saw your focus of devotion I went to as many sites and discussions about Lessans as I could find - it took me days to scour the internet - much of the content was your own contribution or your interpretation of his writing.

I do not subscribe to the man's reality and I am a credentialled professional - that does not make you nor me a bad person - we can disagree - but Lessans cannot be the only topic you want to discuss - please tell me you have many other interests and things to share with the membership here.

I see and hear man's inhumanities to man on a daily basis and work diligently with people so they may take off the bondage of anger and find the path to peaceful cooperaion and settlement of issues. Until we find there are other ways to reach the
same goals - we restrict each other in finding the best way to reach common coals.

You can disagree, feel the majority are way off base with their opinions, but why would that make them lesser people than you - when we are discussing opinion and philosophical thought? We should all be grateful there are places where this can occur - this world wide internet - this sharing with people from all over the world - and one day when some idiot wants to declare war - we can direct him or her to Google to find the best place to make the announcement, set up a war forum, and then have a good chuckle....

I am sorry I don't weight your life's belief with as much import as do you - but then - as we all are - we are different - and I am willing to be 100% wrong in many areas but I will have my opinions until I am educated or live an experience along a different path to knowledge - and I will follow.

Being in disagreement does not make a lesser person of any of the membership.
 
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peacegirl

Electoral Member
Aug 23, 2010
199
0
16
Peacegirl

I didn't need to query you about Lessans - the other writers were asking far more objective questions than I could construct.

When I saw your focus of devotion I went to as many sites and discussions about Lessans as I could find - it took me days to scour the internet - much of the content was your own contribution or your interpretation of his writing.

I do not subscribe to the man's reality and I am a credentialled professional - that does not make you nor me a bad person - we can disagree - but Lessans cannot be the only topic you want to discuss - please tell me you have many other interests and things to share with the membership here.

I told you I do. I have three grandchildren. I like to walk my dogs and meditate. I try to volunteer when it fits into my schedule. Where am I faulting you?

curiosity said:
I see and hear man's inhumanities to man on a daily basis and work diligently with people so they may take off the bondage of anger and find the path to peaceful cooperaion and settlement of issues. Until we find there are other ways to reach the
same goals - we restrict each other in finding the best way to reach common coals.

I do not disagree with you at all. In fact, we're on the same page here.

curiosity said:
You can disagree, fell the majority are way off base with their opinions, but why would that make them lesser people than you - when we are discussing opinion and philosophical thought? We should all be grateful there are places where this can occur - this world wide internet - this sharing with people from all over the world - and one day when some idiot wants to declare war - we can direct him or her to Google to find the best place to make the announcement, set up a war forum, and then have a good chuckle....

Where should this ever be a chuckle until war is gone? I don't think you meant the way it sounds, and I absolutely think you are a sweet person.

curiosity said:
I am sorry I don't weight your life's belief with as much import as do you - but then - as we all are - we are different - and I am willing to be 100% wrong in many areas but I will have my opinions until I am educated or live an experience along a different path to knowledge - and I will follow.

That is all anyone can ask for.

curiosity said:
Being in disagreement does not make a lesser person of any of the membership.

No, it does not, but I never said it did. :(
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
Yes, there is evidence that could prove him wrong or right. If his observations do not pan out in reality, he would be wrong. This knowledge is falsifiable and can be tested empirically.
Then he should have done it. That also means you cannot keep insisting his claims are undeniable and if we only understood him we'd agree with him. Evidently people are imagining reasonable evidence that could prove him wrong, based on their own knowledge of human nature and the way the world works, and refusing to accept that he's right just on your and his say so. That's the point I've been trying to make from the beginning, he hasn't made his case, and you've just conceded the point.
 

peacegirl

Electoral Member
Aug 23, 2010
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Then he should have done it. That also means you cannot keep insisting his claims are undeniable and if we only understood him we'd agree with him. Evidently people are imagining reasonable evidence that could prove him wrong, based on their own knowledge of human nature and the way the world works, and refusing to accept that he's right just on your and his say so. That's the point I've been trying to make from the beginning, he hasn't made his case, and you've just conceded the point.

I really haven't. His knowledge was based on observation and reasoning, yet it can be tested empirically. Just because it was not tested in this way does not discredit his observations and conclusions. I believe he proved his case, but if you don't think so, that's fine. I really don't want to argue with you anymore.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
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Vernon, B.C.
When a sensible person finds all the traffic approaching them on a one way street, they very quickly change course. :lol:
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
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Regina, SK
Just because it was not tested in this way does not discredit his observations and conclusions.
Agreed, it doesn't credit or discredit them, but it DOES mean he hasn't proven his case. He's making empirical claims about human nature and the way the world works, insisting they're mathematically and scientifically correct, while arbitrarily redefining those terms to mean "undeniably," which is not what they mean. Until the testing is done, you cannot legitimately argue his claims are proven, all he's offered is anecdote and speculation, and the default position is "presumed false until tested."

Here's how it works.
1. Any true claim must in principle be falsifiable, as I explained above.
2. The arguments offered in support of it must be logical, coherent, and consistent
3. The evidence must be comprehensive, you must consider ALL evidence, not just what supports the claim.
4. The evidence must be evaluated honestly, without bias, self-deception, or deceiving others.
5. Any test must be duplicated by others, a single result is never adequate to prove a claim.
6. The evidence must be sufficient to establish the truth of the claim.
7. The burden of proof is on the claimant, it's not up to others to prove him wrong.

Lessans' work does not meet enough of those conditions for his claims to be accepted as true.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
Agreed, it doesn't credit or discredit them, but it DOES mean he hasn't proven his case. He's making empirical claims about human nature and the way the world works, insisting they're mathematically and scientifically correct, while arbitrarily redefining those terms to mean "undeniably," which is not what they mean. Until the testing is done, you cannot legitimately argue his claims are proven, all he's offered is anecdote and speculation, and the default position is "presumed false until tested."

Here's how it works.
1. Any true claim must in principle be falsifiable, as I explained above.
2. The arguments offered in support of it must be logical, coherent, and consistent
3. The evidence must be comprehensive, you must consider ALL evidence, not just what supports the claim.
4. The evidence must be evaluated honestly, without bias, self-deception, or deceiving others.
5. Any test must be duplicated by others, a single result is never adequate to prove a claim.
6. The evidence must be sufficient to establish the truth of the claim.
7. The burden of proof is on the claimant, it's not up to others to prove him wrong.

Lessans' work does not meet enough of those conditions for his claims to be accepted as true.

Well put. :smile:
 
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