Free will versus determinism

[MHz]

No one has to die for this to happen. And we all end up holy in God's eyes.

That is God's way of washing away their sins, Re:21 is the start of the New Earth and that is when sin and death are done away with. If you are looking for that sort of sanctuary today because everybody you know and everybody you love is going to end up in the grave (sleeping), that includes you. The only comfort from above is the knowledge that it is a temporary place and everybody who enters there is also brought back from there. Even that knowledge does not release us from feeling sorrow when people close to us die.

You have yet to prove to me that you understand the book, because you've offered nothing substantial to the heart of the conversation.

I assure you Dex hates God and thinks everybody who believes in God should be ignored at best and/or sent to a mental ward for life. You are wasting your time, as you will see.

 

[peacegirl]

That is God's way of washing away their sins, Re:21 is the start of the New Earth and that is when sin and death are done away with. If you are looking for that sort of sanctuary today because everybody you know and everybody you love is going to end up in the grave (sleeping), that includes you. The only comfort from above is the knowledge that it is a temporary place and everybody who enters there is also brought back from there. Even that knowledge does not release us from feeling sorrow when people close to us die.


I assure you Dex hates God and thinks everybody who believes in God should be ignored at best and/or sent to a mental ward for life. You are wasting your time, as you will see.

I think Dexter is trying to take a more scientific approach. I personally do not believe there is a heaven or hell. I don't believe we are all sinners unless we are born again through Christ, and I don't believe that I won't be saved just because I didn't accept Christ as my Lord and savior. 8O That being said, I love the Christian people. I think the true Christians are the most, loving, caring, and forgiving people on the planet.

 

[MHz]

That being said, I love the Christian people. I think the true Christians are the most, loving, caring, and forgiving people on the planet.

I hope you get to meet a lot of them. Later.

 

[talloola]

That is God's way of washing away their sins, Re:21 is the start of the New Earth and that is when sin and death are done away with. If you are looking for that sort of sanctuary today because everybody you know and everybody you love is going to end up in the grave (sleeping), that includes you. The only comfort from above is the knowledge that it is a temporary place and everybody who enters there is also brought back from there. Even that knowledge does not release us from feeling sorrow when people close to us die.


I assure you Dex hates God and thinks everybody who believes in God should be ignored at best and/or sent to a mental ward for life. You are wasting your time, as you will see.

Dex doesn't hate god, he doesn't believe there is a god, 'big difference'.

 

[MHz]

Dex doesn't hate god, he doesn't believe there is a god, 'big difference'.

I've read several of his posts that call God all sorts of names that have only one meaning. Psychopath was one of them I believe, perhaps Dex will re-post those thoughts .

I wonder why you have blanked out those parts of his posts? (not so much that you have to reply)

It usually starts with 'if I could see God face-to-face this is what I would say ................'

 

[Curiosity]

Pecegirl: Well you followed your own yellow brick road yet again when I tried to give you the opportunity to show some interest in a topic other than yourself and your "mentor".

You never once asked what type of cancer the little girl contracted at the age of two.

Of course unless it had something to do with your lesson plan, it wasn't of sufficient interest to you to ask to see the strength in this child - even so you wouldn't understand. It is way out of your realm of comprehension or empathy.

One trick performer only.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

IYou have yet to prove to me that you understand the book...

The only way you'll ever accept that I understand the book would require me to say that I agree with it. I don't. I don't know whether he's right or wrong about determinism as he describes it, free will versus determinism is an issue I've never been able to resolve to my satisfaction, but I do know that he hasn't proven what he claims.

I assure you Dex hates God and thinks everybody who believes in God should be ignored at best and/or sent to a mental ward for life. You are wasting your time, as you will see.

You're less perceptive than I thought. I don't hate god, I think (a) he's a fictional character, (b) in that context he's one of the nastiest inventions in all of fiction, and (c) people who believe he has any reality outside of that are deluded. I don't ignore people who believe in god, but I'll certainly challenge their beliefs, as you of all people ought to know.

 

[peacegirl]

so, what you're saying then is that your way would be utopia?, as that is the question I was
answering, that karrie had presented.

you know there is opinion, then there is 'telling' like there is no other way, all of our opinions
are just that, our opinions, including yours, nothing written in stone.

As long as people can justify hurting others, we won't be able to achieve this kind of world. Actually, this is not an opinion tallolla and some things are written in stone.

 

[JLM]

No, not at all. If someone disagrees with me on something important, I listen to their ideas and then make a decision.

.

That surprises me- you had good advice from a dozen or so people here and yet you still stick to the same line.
On a bigger issue I've been thinking about this and have to ask the question "Do we really want to change the world"? Personally I would be quite content if I could just improve the lives of 3 or 4 people in some small ways. When everyone in the world has just done that, then maybe we'll find the world doesn't need changing. :smile:

As long as people can justify hurting others, we won't be able to achieve this kind of world. Actually

Personally I prefer flexibility. :smile:

 

[peacegirl]

Now we are getting somewhere. It's not that we dislike the book or you or the author, but you've summarized the gist of the whole thing in your one sentence regarding not having to live with war, crime and accidents. The human animal is what he/she is - an inbred instinct to fight to the death for survival, land, fortune, fame, authority. We are a fighting species, especially to protect what we already have. You can't change that, especially in folks like Al Qaeda and the TAlliban. Crime includes a lot of things and taken to the extreme, the majority of us have been "criminals" at some point and when folks lack the basics of life there is going to be crime. You'll never eliminate accidents, people by nature get tired, impatient, rambunctuous, inattentive. And you think you are going to change five billion people or more? :smile::smile:

We have an inbred instinct to protect ourselves, that's true. We also have an instinct to preserve ourselves no matter what it takes. Self-preservation is the first law of nature. And yes, people will fight to the death for survival. They will also fight for what they believe is theirs. And it's true that crime has different motives. If someone lacks the basics of life there will be crime. There is nothing wrong with wanting fame and fortune as long as no one gets stepped on, or taken advantage of, in order to get there. In today's world people will step all over you to get to the top. Accidents will be eliminated when people stop doing those things that lead to accidents. Under the changed conditions, they would never take a chance getting in a car when tired. They will know what can lead to distractions and will do everything in their power to avoid those things. You won't see people texting while driving, or talking on their cell phones because the very thought of causing an accident, and not being blamed for it, is too horrible to contemplate. As far as Al Queda and the Taliban, it will take the leaders of the world to become citizens first. Once the transition to this new way of life is set in motion, groups like the Taliban and Al Queda will gradually disappear. Groups like these are formed out of anger and frustration and a need to place the blame for their misery on another, even if it's just a scapegoat. Moreover, once this world becomes a reality, religion will die out because there will no more need for it once mankind is delivered from all evil.

Pecegirl: Well you followed your own yellow brick road yet again when I tried to give you the opportunity to show some interest in a topic other than yourself and your "mentor".

You never once asked what type of cancer the little girl contracted at the age of two.

Of course unless it had something to do with your lesson plan, it wasn't of sufficient interest to you to ask to see the strength in this child - even so you wouldn't understand. It is way out of your realm of comprehension or empathy.

One trick performer only.

Curious, I have a lot of empathy. You aren't showing empathy for me if you can judge me so harshly because I didn't answer the way you wanted. There are so many children who are sick; so many who are dying in third world countries; so many who are malnourished; so many who are hungry, so many who are abused; that if I dwelled on all the sadness in this world, I wouldn't be able to function. So I'm sorry if I didn't ask you what type of cancer this little two year old had. You brought this little girl up because you were trying to discredit the book by saying she had a choice. And I answered appropriately by asking you who was taking this choice away from her? If you want to share the story about this child, or give me the website, I will go there. You have me sized up all wrong.

That surprises me- you had good advice from a dozen or so people here and yet you still stick to the same line.
On a bigger issue I've been thinking about this and have to ask the question "Do we really want to change the world"? Personally I would be quite content if I could just improve the lives of 3 or 4 people in some small ways. When everyone in the world has just done that, then maybe we'll find the world doesn't need changing. :smile:

Personally I prefer flexibility. :smile:

Of course, we all play a part in making the world a better place. There are vast improvements being seen all over the globe from people becoming more tolerant of other races to new laws that will discourage hate crimes. There are strides being made in the international community through diplomacy. But this discovery takes our world to a whole new level of peace and understanding. Why wouldn't you want this kind of world, especially when we will all have more freedom and flexibility than ever thought possible.

 

[JLM]

We have an inbred instinct to protect ourselves, that's true. We also have an instinct to preserve ourselves no matter what it takes. Self-preservation is the first law of nature. And yes, people will fight to the death for survival. They will also fight for what they believe is theirs. And it's true that crime has different motives. If someone lacks the basics of life there will be crime. There is nothing wrong with wanting fame and fortune as long as no one gets stepped on, or taken advantage of, in order to get there. In today's world people will step all over you to get to the top. Accidents will be eliminated when people stop doing those things that lead to accidents. Under the changed conditions, they would never take a chance getting in a car when tired. .

I would if my grand daughter was deathly sick at 2 A.M. and had no other way of getting her to the hospital- like the phones are all out. Very very silly to say NEVER. :smile:

 

[peacegirl]

I would if my grand daughter was deathly sick at 2 A.M. and had no other way of getting her to the hospital- like the phones are all out. Very very silly to say NEVER. :smile:

I am sure if this happened, you would be on high alert which would counteract any tiredness you may have felt. Remember, no one in the new world is going to tell you what you should or shouldn't do.

 

[JLM]

I am sure if this happened, you would be on high alert which would counteract any tiredness you may have felt. Remember, no one in the new world is going to tell you what you should or shouldn't do.

So what age would that start at or would children also do exactly as they please? What about mentally challenged people- would they be allowed to just wander in the traffic?

 

[MHz]

What about mentally challenged people- would they be allowed to just wander in the traffic?

Why do so many people develop the mental handicap after the get their drivers?

 

[Bcool]

Before you tell me I am so late in entering this thread that makes me ineligible to "understand", I have, for the simple reasons of insatiable curiosity and quest for diverse opinions on anything & everything: read the whole thread from the beginning, including your very lengthy quotes from the rationed out two chapters, plus trying to actually draw anything of worth or reason from those same actual chapters - I couldn't.

So now you will tell me I am incapable of understanding, that I am wrong.

So I will respond in advance and tell you that what started out as trying to give you & Seymour Lessans fair play, turned into a rather unpleasantly fascinating experience of witnessing someone suffering from, IMO, Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder (not to be confused with Obsessive–compulsive disorder) displaying in their writing the signs and symptoms to such an extent I have not witnessed before. Not even on the OCD & OCPD support group forums! This is not a derogatory accusation, its a suggestion based on my observation of your words/behaviours that IMO you should be seeking professional help.

You will not even contemplate my suggestion of course, I can only hope that there is someone who has real life contact with you that has or will recognize you are displaying obsessive behaviour patterns and convince you to, at the very least, get a professional medical opinion to either prove or disprove what I'm suggesting.

I could quote innumerable quotes of yours to prove my point - even taken out of context they amply demonstrate that you are indeed speaking from a neurological and psychological mindset grossly hindered from reality by a DSM-IV and WHO officially recognized condition. I'll quote just two:

peacegirl #160: "Ironically, this new world offers more freedom than ever thought possible. I really have nothing more to say to you unless you can prove to me that you read the first two chapters. You have failed this test."

peacegirl #332: " That is a wonderful choice that this little girl made. Once again, I ask, who is taking this away from her?"
That was your response to: Curiosity #331 "I visit this lengthy exposition of Lessans' minor thoughts and the devotion paid to him and compare it with my daily visit to the webpage of a tiny just turned five year old girl who has been battling a vicious form of cancer - since the age of two - never knowing much of normal life other than what she can eke out between rounds of injections, radiation, terrible physical reaction, and yet she and her family accept and go on with her education, her ability to laugh to enjoy the tiny moments of happiness she finds between the horrors and know there are reasons- even in this most violent of cruel games nature can play - there has to be reason and choice - we are not, nor ever will be automatons following the same call of the same pied piper."

To be honest, it and many of the things you say demonstrate to me not only symptoms of OCPD but also of Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) - again a DSM-IV & WHO officially recognized neurological/psychological disorder. All very much IMO and based on my experience - something you yourself defended on Lessans' behalf when questioned re his lack of academic qualifications. I don't know if you can even tolerate what I'm suggesting, probably not, but put it to the test - prove me wrong: get two accredited, professional medical opinions.

You are not Seymour Lessans, I have no interest in him having discarded his writings as the writings of a person who, IMO, definitely was labouring primarily under severe Narcissistic Personality Disorder as well as symptoms of OCPD - I would suggest to the point of being delusional. (I am guessing, not asking as no reply would or could be forthcoming from you, that you have a genetic connection of some sort with him.)

My discarding of him will cause you to state with the utmost conviction I cannot contribute as I am incapable of understanding and, possibly as you have with others, asking me to leave a thread which you regard as "yours" - another symptom. You cannot understand this as it will be impossible for you to accept, however: you have no more control over what is said or who may stay or leave than any of us here, only the Moderators have that authority. So I would politely suggest that you not bother, that is if you have enough control to prevent yourself from reacting.

Do please get professional help. I mean that sincerely.

 

[JLM]

Before you tell me I am so late in entering this thread that makes me ineligible to "understand", I have, for the simple reasons of insatiable curiosity and quest for diverse opinions on anything & everything: read the whole thread from the beginning, including your very lengthy quotes from the rationed out two chapters, plus trying to actually draw anything of worth or reason from those same actual chapters - I couldn't.

So now you will tell me I am incapable of understanding, that I am wrong.

So I will respond in advance and tell you that what started out as trying to give you & Seymour Lessans fair play, turned into a rather unpleasantly fascinating experience of witnessing someone suffering from, IMO, Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder (not to be confused with Obsessive–compulsive disorder) displaying in their writing the signs and symptoms to such an extent I have not witnessed before. Not even on the OCD & OCPD support group forums! This is not a derogatory accusation, its a suggestion based on my observation of your words/behaviours that IMO you should be seeking professional help.

You will not even contemplate my suggestion of course, I can only hope that there is someone who has real life contact with you that has or will recognize you are displaying obsessive behaviour patterns and convince you to, at the very least, get a professional medical opinion to either prove or disprove what I'm suggesting.

I could quote innumerable quotes of yours to prove my point - even taken out of context they amply demonstrate that you are indeed speaking from a neurological and psychological mindset grossly hindered from reality by a DSM-IV and WHO officially recognized condition. I'll quote just two:

peacegirl #160: "Ironically, this new world offers more freedom than ever thought possible. I really have nothing more to say to you unless you can prove to me that you read the first two chapters. You have failed this test."

peacegirl #332: " That is a wonderful choice that this little girl made. Once again, I ask, who is taking this away from her?"
That was your response to: Curiosity #331 "I visit this lengthy exposition of Lessans' minor thoughts and the devotion paid to him and compare it with my daily visit to the webpage of a tiny just turned five year old girl who has been battling a vicious form of cancer - since the age of two - never knowing much of normal life other than what she can eke out between rounds of injections, radiation, terrible physical reaction, and yet she and her family accept and go on with her education, her ability to laugh to enjoy the tiny moments of happiness she finds between the horrors and know there are reasons- even in this most violent of cruel games nature can play - there has to be reason and choice - we are not, nor ever will be automatons following the same call of the same pied piper."

To be honest, it and many of the things you say demonstrate to me not only symptoms of OCPD but also of Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) - again a DSM-IV & WHO officially recognized neurological/psychological disorder. All very much IMO and based on my experience - something you yourself defended on Lessans' behalf when questioned re his lack of academic qualifications. I don't know if you can even tolerate what I'm suggesting, probably not, but put it to the test - prove me wrong: get two accredited, professional medical opinions.

You are not Seymour Lessans, I have no interest in him having discarded his writings as the writings of a person who, IMO, definitely was labouring primarily under severe Narcissistic Personality Disorder as well as symptoms of OCPD - I would suggest to the point of being delusional. (I am guessing, not asking as no reply would or could be forthcoming from you, that you have a genetic connection of some sort with him.)

My discarding of him will cause you to state with the utmost conviction I cannot contribute as I am incapable of understanding and, possibly as you have with others, asking me to leave a thread which you regard as "yours" - another symptom. You cannot understand this as it will be impossible for you to accept, however: you have no more control over what is said or who may stay or leave than any of us here, only the Moderators have that authority. So I would politely suggest that you not bother, that is if you have enough control to prevent yourself from reacting.

Do please get professional help. I mean that sincerely.

I agree with you 100%

 

[Bcool]

I assure you Dex hates God and thinks everybody who believes in God should be ignored at best and/or sent to a mental ward for life. You are wasting your time, as you will see.

'Scuse pliz... Although Dexter Sinister has more than capably responded to this himself, I have to ask....

In your reality, how can someone hate someone that, to them, does not exist in any reality?

 

[talloola]

I've read several of his posts that call God all sorts of names that have only one meaning. Psychopath was one of them I believe, perhaps Dex will re-post those thoughts .

I wonder why you have blanked out those parts of his posts? (not so much that you have to reply)

It usually starts with 'if I could see God face-to-face this is what I would say ................'

perhaps you're right, I remember him saying 'your god', and 'if your god was', and so on, but not
ever talking about god as though he was a believer who was mad at god and hated him, as in my
mind that would be a believer only, who would say that.

i'd like to hear what dex has to say about these thoughts.

'Scuse pliz... Although Dexter Sinister has more than capably responded to this himself, I have to ask....

In your reality, how can someone hate someone that, to them, does not exist in any reality?

yes, my point exactly.

As long as people can justify hurting others, we won't be able to achieve this kind of world. Actually, this is not an opinion tallolla and some things are written in stone.

your take on the book is 'your' opinion.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

perhaps you're right, I remember him saying 'your god', and 'if your god was', and so on, but not
ever talking about god as though he was a believer who was mad at god and hated him, as in my
mind that would be a believer only, who would say that.

i'd like to hear what dex has to say about these thoughts.

He's not right, and I think deliberately chooses to misunderstand and misrepresent what I think. If I thought god was real I'd probably hate him, but I don't. I mean both, I don't think he's real and I don't hate him. That'd make as much sense as hating, oh, Lex Luther, say, for all the trouble he causes in Superman's world. I do recall prefacing certain remarks with something like "If I could talk to god face to face..." as MHz claims--maybe as many as three times, if my memory is correct--but maybe he missed the significance of the initial "If." What I hate are the despicable things some people do in his name, the lunacy they promote based on what they believe to be his words, and the shuttering of the mind that surrendering to a delusion often produces.

 

[peacegirl]

The only way you'll ever accept that I understand the book would require me to say that I agree with it. I don't. I don't know whether he's right or wrong about determinism as he describes it, free will versus determinism is an issue I've never been able to resolve to my satisfaction, but I do know that he hasn't proven what he claims.

You say that you don't know whether he's right or wrong about determinism, and then you say that he hasn't proven his claims. How do you know this? I'm asking you to share with me where he has failed to prove his claims. It's very easy to say that you doubt something is true without giving a reason why.

So what age would that start at or would children also do exactly as they please? What about mentally challenged people- would they be allowed to just wander in the traffic?

JLM, are you being facetious? If someone was incapable of performing certain functions because of a handicap, someone would have to take responsibility for them. You are beginning to sound sarcastic so I refuse to answer your other question.

I agree with you 100%

JLM, I'm surprised. If you can so easily agree with a man who came here with the most vengeful, mean-spirited attack on me I have ever witnessed, then we cannot talk anymore. I'm sorry but I am flabergasted that you would go along with his insane diatribe against me. Do you really believe his vicious words? If anyone else in here agrees with him, let me know and we can end the conversation right now.