Anti_Islam protests victory for extremists?

CDNBear

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Wow. Alright, well if you want to put me in a box then. I can say that even if they are both legitimate terrorist organizations, I still wouldn't have a problem with someone who didn't want to get involved in the political dispute.
Terrorism is a political dispute?

Terrorism is crime against humanity.

That, in my opinion, is fair, as long as that same party is promoting non-terrorist activity - like bringing christians, jews, and muslims together.
While not wanting to state his opinion on two well documented terrorist groups? I smell disingenuous BS.
 

mentalfloss

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Jun 28, 2010
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Terrorism is a political dispute?

Terrorism is crime against humanity.

While not wanting to state his opinion on two well documented terrorist groups? I smell disingenuous BS.

Hmm. Well, I do agree that his reputation would have been better if he made some amends on those grounds.
 

TenPenny

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That the President of the United States has joined the chorus of those calling the Ground Zero mosque a religious freedom issue tells us a lot about the moral dry rot that is undermining this country from within.

In this, as in other things, Barack Obama is not so much the cause of our decline but the culmination of it. He had many predecessors and many contemporaries who represent the same mindset and the same malaise.

But didn't Obama say that it was unwise to build the Mosque there? In other words, he thinks that, while not illegal, it's not a good thing to do...in other words, agreeing completely with the author you quote?
 

earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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This article was written by one of the sharpest and most reasonable person in America, Thomas Sowell:

"The proposed mosque near where the World Trade Center was attacked and destroyed, along with thousands of American lives, would be a 15-story middle finger to America.

It takes a high IQ to evade the obvious, so it is not surprising that the intelligentsia are out in force, decrying those who criticize this calculated insult.

What may surprise some people is that the American taxpayer is currently financing a trip to the Middle East by the imam who is pushing this project, so that he can raise the money to build it. The State Department is subsidizing his travel.

The big talking point is that this is an issue about "religious freedom" and that Muslims have a "right" to build a mosque where they choose. But those who oppose this project are not claiming that there is no legal right to build a mosque near the site of the World Trade Center.

If anybody did, it would be a matter for the courts to decide -- and they would undoubtedly say that it is not illegal to build a mosque near the site of the World Trade Center attack.

The intelligentsia and others who are wrapping themselves in the Constitution are fighting a phony war against a straw man. Why create a false issue, except to evade the real issue?

Our betters are telling us that we need to be more "tolerant" and more "sensitive" to the feelings of Muslims. But if we are supposed to be sensitive to Muslims, why are Muslims not supposed to be sensitive to the feelings of millions of Americans, for whom 9/11 was the biggest national trauma since Pearl Harbor?

It would not be illegal for Japanese Americans to build a massive shinto shrine next to Pearl Harbor. But, in all these years, they have never sought to do it.

When Catholic authorities in Poland were planning to build an institution for nuns, years ago, and someone pointed out that it would be near the site of a concentration camp that carried out genocide, the Pope intervened to stop it.

He didn't say that the Catholic Church had a legal right to build there, as it undoubtedly did. Instead, he respected the painful feelings of other people. And he certainly did not denounce those who called attention to the concentration camp.

There is no question that Muslims have a right to build a mosque where they chose to. The real question is why they chose that particular location, in a country that covers more than 3 million square miles.

If we all did everything that we have a legal right to do, we could not even survive as individuals, much less as a society. So the question is whether those who are planning a Ground Zero mosque want to be part of American society or just to see how much they can get away with in American society?

Can anyone in his right mind believe that this was intended to show solidarity with Americans, rather than solidarity with those who attacked America? Does anyone imagine that the Middle East nations, including Iran, from whom financial contributions will be solicited, want to promote reconciliation between Americans and Muslims?

That the President of the United States has joined the chorus of those calling the Ground Zero mosque a religious freedom issue tells us a lot about the moral dry rot that is undermining this country from within.

In this, as in other things, Barack Obama is not so much the cause of our decline but the culmination of it. He had many predecessors and many contemporaries who represent the same mindset and the same malaise.

There are people for whom moral preening has become a way of life. They are out in force denouncing critics of the Ground Zero mosque.

There are others for whom a citizen of the world affectation puts them one-up on those of us who are grateful to be Americans, and to enjoy a freedom that is all too rare in other countries around the world, even at this late date in human history.

They think the United States is somehow on trial, and needs to prove itself to others by bending over backwards. But bending over backwards does not win friends. It loses respect, including self-respect."

"a 15-story middle finger to America." Really? You don't see that remark as manipulative and inflammatory?

The group of Americans bending over backwards are the ones who are stretching the truth and spinning the facts to slander fellow Americans as terrorists or terrorist sympathizers without any supporting evidence with the goal of limiting their rights and freedoms.

I going to side with the Americans seeking their legitimate rights and freedoms.

Being fair and just wins respect.
 
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Goober

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"a 15-story middle finger to America." Really? You don't see that remark as manipulative and inflammatory?

The group of Americans are bending over backwards are the ones who are stretching the truth and spinning the facts to slander fellow Americans as terrorist sympathizers without any supporting evidence with the goal of limiting their rights and freedoms.

I going to side with the Americans seeking their legitimate rights and freedoms.

Being fair and just wins respect.

What a 2 faced piece of work - anyone against this in your opinion classifies Muslims as Sand Nxxxxx - anyone against this is are racists - you accuse people of using those terms yet fail to provide the posts -

Well Chicken Little - They sky ain't a gonna fall if they build or do not build this mosque

But it has and will contribute to more division between Americans - Note the term Americans - Not White - Not Muslim and definitely not SN's either - but Americans -

You and Glen Beck are the same side of the rant, rave and incite crowd.
 

ironsides

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Feb 13, 2009
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Here is all we have to know about Hamas.

JERUSALEM – Palestinian gunmen opened fire Tuesday on an Israeli car in the West Bank and killed four passengers on the eve of a new round of [COLOR=#366388 !important][COLOR=#366388 !important]Mideast [COLOR=#366388 !important]peace [/COLOR][COLOR=#366388 !important]talks[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] in Washington. The Islamic militant group Hamas claimed responsibility.

Palestinian kills 4 Israelis on eve of peace talks - Yahoo! News


Intolerance isn't black and white. Its shades of grey. When I read the posts here in this string, I can see various shades of religious intolerance. My previous intolerant posts are just a shade darker than many views expressed here. I suspect a few people would actually agree with them. Most people haven't gone as far as my posts, but they are moving in that direction even if they don't realize it. that was my point.

Intolerant bigots never see themselves as intolerant bigots. But as soon as you try to restrict another person's rights and freedoms based solely on race, religion, sexual orientation... you've crossed a line and become some sort of intolerant bigot. Its just a matter of degree...

These American citizens have every right to construct a religious building on private property. Their building is no different than a Christian Church, Jewish Synagogue, Hindu Temple or any other religious building. Attempts to differentiate these people and their religion from mainstream American values and link them to the 9/11 hijackers is not based on evidence or fact. Claims that these people are associated with, sympathize with or share some sort of guilt with the 9/11 hijackers because they are Muslim is a form of religiously intolerant bigotry.

No to a new mosque. They don't seem to care for the feelings of the victims. Other religions are not trying to build on the site so no sense crying about discrimination yet.

Okay, well I guess that's where we stand. You have your 'non-comment' and that suits your purpose for believing this whole production is distasteful just fine.

But, now I'm curious then.. what if it wasn't in New York, but under the same man? Would you still have the same opinion. What if it was in the same place, but under a different man who immediately denounced The Hamas/Hezbollah? Would you still think the construction of that to be distasteful?
It is the location that is distasteful, and how about we just do not want it built on the site of 9/11, to grandious. There house or prayer they now have is enough.
 

Goober

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Hmm. Well, I do agree that his reputation would have been better if he made some amends on those grounds.


The Charter for Hamas - Well 1 point is that Believers - Christians and Jews will survive under an Islamic Govt run by Hamas types - But Heaven help the Atheists.


Palestine Center - The Charter of the Hamas

Hmm. Well, I do agree that his reputation would have been better if he made some amends on those grounds.

Hezbollah
Hizbullah - the Party of God

The Charter for Hamas - Well 1 point is that Believers - Christians and Jews will survive under an Islamic Govt run by Hamas types - But Heaven help the Atheists.


Palestine Center - The Charter of the Hamas



Hezbollah
Hizbullah - the Party of God



Now why did it take so long to figure this out - At least some people are thinking - And what i and many other have stated -

New details emerge about proposed Islamic Center - CNN.com

CNN) -- New details emerged Tuesday about the controversial "Park51" project, involving the proposed Islamic cultural center and mosque in New York City.
A source familiar with the project told CNN's Allan Chernoff the structure is being planned as an 11-story building. It will cover 120,000 square feet. Within that space, the source said, 10,000 square feet -- just more than 8 percent -- would be designated for the Muslim prayer space. The developer is considering the possibility of an interfaith education/meditation/prayer space as well, the source said.
The Islamic Center's leaders have said plans for the $100 million facility call for a community center including a mosque, performing arts center, gym, swimming pool and other public spaces.
It will be built on property the center already owns, two blocks from where the World Trade Center was destroyed by Islamic extremists on September 11, 2001. The attacks on the two towers killed more than 2,700 people.
 

earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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The American citizens who are defending their right to build a community center including a mosque, performing arts center, gym, swimming pool and other public spaces, have little to nothing to do with either Hamas or Hezbollah. Their refusal to take sides in the Israeli/Palestinian dispute or the US war on terrorism, does not imply support for either side.

Hamas and Hezbollah are far more complex than the selective truths posted by Goober. People who want to understand these groups on a level deeper, should know more than the propaganda in the MSM. Wikipedia is a good place to start:

Hamas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also note this aspect of Hamas.

wiki:
Hamas is particularly popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, though it also has a following in the West Bank, and to a lesser extent in other Middle Eastern countries. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare and social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories, including school and hospital construction. Hamas devotes up to 90% of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. Such services aren't generally provided by The Palestinian Authority. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities".[107][108][109][110]

You can also check out Hamas's website. (which is about as fair and balanced as FoxNews)
The Palestinian Information Center

The same with Hezbollah

wiki:
Hezbollah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hezbollah News Service:
Al-ManarTV :: News

Hamas won the 2006 elections fairly:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Hamas sweeps to election victory

Hamas was not able to fulfill their democratic mandate because the former government led by Fatah, refused to hand over power. Instead, Fatah began arresting and killing members of Hamas with the support of Israel and the US. Hamas retaliated and the result was a civil war.

US and Israeli support for Fatah and their involvement in the Palestinian civil war:
The Gaza Bombshell | Politics | Vanity Fair

Israel allows guns across border to support Fatah leader against rivals
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1264914.ece

While it is in Hamas's charter to destroy Israel, they have offered long term truces with Israel repeatedly:

November 4, 2006 by CommonDreams.org
Another Hamas Peace Plan Ignored

..."This offer of hudna is no ruse, as some assert, to strengthen our military machine," Yousef pleaded. And he offered several reasons to believe it: "A hudna is recognized in Islamic jurisprudence as a legitimate and binding contract. . It goes back to the Koran itself. . When Hamas gives its word to an international agreement, it does so in the name of God and will therefore keep its word. Hamas has honored its previous cease-fires, as Israelis grudgingly note with the oft-heard words, 'At least with Hamas they mean what they say.'" ...

Another Hamas Peace Plan Ignored
May 30, 2010
Hamas renews offer to end fight if Israel withdraws

(Reuters) - Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal has stated explicitly that the Palestinian Islamist group will end its armed struggle against Israel if the Jewish state withdraws from Palestinian land it occupied in the 1967 Middle East War.

Hamas, which refuses to recognize Israel, has long maintained that it will enter into a long-term truce if Israel pulls out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem and agrees to a right of return for millions of Palestinian refugees....

Hamas renews offer to end fight if Israel withdraws | Reuters
The position of Hamas at one time was that in exchange for a truce, return to the 1967 borders, recognition of the right of return of millions of Palestinians living in refugee camps throughout the region, Hamas would not take any military action against Israel for a generation. Moderate Hamas leaders have repeatedly expressed their desire to focus on charity work and improving the lives of Palestinians, not defend themselves from Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity:
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/factfindingmission.htm

Not only has Israel ignored repeated Hamas truce offers, they deliberately assassinated moderate Hamas leaders, who make them:

Abu Shanab
Killing of Hamas leader, Ismail Abu Shanab, ends truce | From Occupied Palestine

Israel kept killing Hamas leaders even after Abu Shanab managed to get all the main militant groups to agree to a ceasefire as per the 2006 road map to peace.
Road map for peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Israeli assassination of the Hamas truce negotiator Abu Shanab effectively ended the "Roadmap to peace".

My point is, Hamas is more than a militant resistance group. Most of their efforts are focused on charity and politics. Israel is far from being an innocent victim in this war and many of their actions seem designed to deliberately provoke violence and maintain the status quo, which allows them to continue their illegal activities which include ethnic cleansing (crime against humanity), land grabs (war crime) and colonization (war crime).
 
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mentalfloss

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Jun 28, 2010
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Oh, so it isn't as simple as calling them all terrorists then... Hmm... I guess I had some cause for being cautious about my reservations to have an explicit opinion about them in that case.

I can see why someone wouldn't want to get stuck in that knot. Good to know.
 
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Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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The American citizens who are defending their right to build a community center including a mosque, performing arts center, gym, swimming pool and other public spaces, have little to nothing to do with either Hamas or Hezbollah. Their refusal to take sides in the Israeli/Palestinian dispute or the US war on terrorism, does not imply support for either side.

Hamas and Hezbollah are far more complex than the selective truths posted by Goober. People who want to understand these groups on a level deeper, should know more than the propaganda in the MSM. Wikipedia is a good place to start:

Hamas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also note this aspect of Hamas.

wiki:
Hamas is particularly popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, though it also has a following in the West Bank, and to a lesser extent in other Middle Eastern countries. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare and social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories, including school and hospital construction. Hamas devotes up to 90% of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. Such services aren't generally provided by The Palestinian Authority. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities".[107][108][109][110]

You can also check out Hamas's website. (which is about as fair and balanced as FoxNews)
The Palestinian Information Center

The same with Hezbollah

wiki:
Hezbollah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hezbollah News Service:
Al-ManarTV :: News

Hamas won the 2006 elections fairly:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Hamas sweeps to election victory

Hamas was not able to fulfill their democratic mandate because the former government led by Fatah, refused to hand over power. Instead, Fatah began arresting and killing members of Hamas with the support of Israel and the US. Hamas retaliated and the result was a civil war.

US and Israeli support for Fatah and their involvement in the Palestinian civil war:
The Gaza Bombshell | Politics | Vanity Fair

Israel allows guns across border to support Fatah leader against rivals
Israel allows guns across border to support Fatah leader against rivals - Times Online

While it is in Hamas's charter to destroy Israel, they have offered long term truces with Israel repeatedly:

The position of Hamas at one time was that in exchange for a truce, return to the 1967 borders, recognition of the right of return of millions of Palestinians living in refugee camps throughout the region, Hamas would not take any military action against Israel for a generation. Moderate Hamas leaders have repeatedly expressed their desire to focus on charity work and improving the lives of Palestinians, not defend themselves from Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity:
United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza conflict

Not only has Israel ignored repeated Hamas truce offers, they deliberately assassinated moderate Hamas leaders, who make them:

Abu Shanab
Killing of Hamas leader, Ismail Abu Shanab, ends truce | From Occupied Palestine

Israel kept killing Hamas leaders even after Abu Shanab managed to get all the main militant groups to agree to a ceasefire as per the 2006 road map to peace.
Road map for peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Israeli assassination of the Hamas truce negotiator Abu Shanab effectively ended the "Roadmap to peace".

My point is, Hamas is more than a militant resistance group. Most of their efforts are focused on charity and politics. Israel is far from being an innocent victim in this war and many of their actions seem designed to deliberately provoke violence and maintain the status quo, which allows them to continue their illegal activities which include ethnic cleansing (crime against humanity), land grabs (war crime) and colonization (war crime).
EAO

Yeah - Understanding Hamas and Hezbollah is way beyond my ability to understand.

I cannot understand targeting women & children to be killed

I cannot understand how Hamas - PLO celebrate terrorist who just before he was capture put a bullet thru a babies head

I cannot understand how anyone can be Pro Genocide

I cannot understand anyone that supports the extinction of a Culture, Religion and Country


Yeah - You are right EAO - there is a lot in this world that a dumb ass like myself cannot understand.

But you understand, Don't you? So why not start a Thread on Hamas/Hezbollah on all their good works, philosophy etc

PS - The Imam supports the State of Israel - condemns killing - yet has No Comment on Hamas/Hezbollah

Let me tell you something - Sitting on a a picket fence eventually makes your ass quite sore - and if you slip, your colon.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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The American citizens who are defending their right to build a community center including a mosque, performing arts center, gym, swimming pool and other public spaces, have little to nothing to do with either Hamas or Hezbollah. Their refusal to take sides in the Israeli/Palestinian dispute or the US war on terrorism, does not imply support for either side.
Agreed, but refusing to denounce terror groups, says volumes. But you can continue to read it anyway you want.

Hamas and Hezbollah are far more complex than the selective truths posted by Goober.
And are as simple as those that post the selective truths, like yourself.
People who want to understand these groups on a level deeper, should know more than the propaganda in the MSM. Wikipedia is a good place to start:
They call it wikiality for a reason, but when in Rome...
Also note...

Their Charter
The Hamas charter (or covenant), issued in 1988, calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[36] and the obliteration or nullification of Israel.

Their association and birth from a Nazi organization.
Sheikh Ahmed Yassin founded Hamas in 1987 as an offshoot of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood

Their way of dealing with political opponents...
In addition to the 18 Fatah officials killed during the Gaza conflict, another 54 were executed between January 18th and March 31st 2009. Many cases of torture have gone unreported for fear of reprisal

You can also check out Hamas's website. (which is about as fair and balanced as FoxNews)
The Palestinian Information Center
But you said they're so darned misunderstood?

Do you switch and talk out the other side of your face when you post double talk and expect people to eat it up?

Funny you compare it to Fox News, a news source you don't trust, but you trust Hamas. I smell an ideologue!!!
The same with Hezbollah

wiki:
Hezbollah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hezbollah News Service:
Al-ManarTV :: News
Do I have to do the whole connect the dots so you understand that they're a Nazi group too?

You can ignore that, but it's true, no matter how much you try and convince us otherwise.

Hamas won the 2006 elections fairly:
Under mysterious circumstances, and through murder and intimidation, which you have ignored for years.

Hamas was not able to fulfill their democratic mandate because the US and Israeli supported Fatah refused to hand over power. Instead, Fatah began arresting and killing members of Hamas, resulting in a civil war. This civil war had a lot to do with US and Israeli interference:
But Hamas never did anything like that, nooooo, never, they're the good guys...:roll:

While it is in Hamas's charter to destroy Israel, they have offered long term truces with Israel repeatedly:
No, they have offered or been forced into "ceasefires", which they continually break or allow to be broken.

The position of Hamas at one time was that in exchange for a truce, return to the 1967 borders, recognition of the right of return of millions of Palestinians living in refugee camps throughout the region, Hamas would not take any military action against Israel for a generation. The current Hamas leaders wanted to focus on their charity work and improve the lives of Palestinians, not fight a war.

Not only has Israel ignored repeated Hamas truce offers, they have deliberately assassinated moderate Hamas leaders, who make them:
Oh brother, do you even know the history you have to ignore to make this a fact?

My point is, Hamas is more than a militant resistance group.
You spelled terrorist group wrong, but exposed your ideology just a little more.

Most of their efforts are focused on charity and politics. Israel is far from being an innocent victim in this war and many of their actions seem designed to deliberately provoke violence and maintain the status quo, which allows them to continue their ethnic cleansing, illegal land grabs and settlement building.
Back to Israel and ethnic cleansing, while you have stated that there was no ethnic cleansing in Iraq, by Hussein...someones ideology is showing through the facade.

Oh, so it isn't as simple as calling them all terrorists then... Hmm... I guess I had some cause for being cautious about my reservations to have an explicit opinion about them in that case.

I can see why someone wouldn't want to get stuck in that knot. Good to know.
mentalfloss...

Even Adolf had a social welfare program. Does that mean the Nazi's weren't all that bad?
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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EAO

Yeah - Understanding Hamas and Hezbollah is way beyond my ability to understand.

I cannot understand targeting women & children to be killed

I cannot understand how Hamas - PLO celebrate terrorist who just before he was capture put a bullet thru a babies head

I cannot understand how anyone can be Pro Genocide

I cannot understand anyone that supports the extinction of a Culture, Religion and Country


Yeah - You are right EAO - there is a lot in this world that a dumb ass like myself cannot understand.

But you understand, Don't you? So why not start a Thread on Hamas/Hezbollah on all their good works, philosophy etc

PS - The Imam supports the State of Israel - condemns killing - yet has No Comment on Hamas/Hezbollah

Let me tell you something - Sitting on a a picket fence eventually makes your ass quite sore - and if you slip, your colon.

I said that understanding Hamas and Hezbollah involves knowing more than what you posted. I made no comments about your abilities.

A major difference between us, is that I have no problem condemning all atrocities, crimes against humanity and war crimes. You condemn some atrocities, war crimes, and either support or ignore others. I'm consistent. You aren't.

I believe in non-violence, peace, justice and freedom. Unlike you, I do not support any violence, wars, injustices or oppression. I support the right of innocent civilians to live in peace on all sides of this conflict. I also support being fully informed about these conflicts, not selective truths.

As far as taking sides regarding this proposed New York Islamic community center, you are with the religiously intolerant bigots or against them. I support those who have America's constitution behind them which guarantees religious rights, freedoms and liberties. I oppose allowing a mob of religiously intolerant bigots from restricting people's rights and freedoms.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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I said that understanding Hamas and Hezbollah involves knowing more than what you posted. I made no comments about your abilities.

A major difference between us, is that I have no problem condemning all atrocities, crimes against humanity and war crimes. You condemn some atrocities, war crimes, and either support or ignore others. I'm consistent. You aren't.

I believe in non-violence, peace, justice and freedom. Unlike you, I do not support any violence, wars, injustices or oppression. I support the right of innocent civilians to live in peace on all sides of this conflict. I also support being fully informed about these conflicts, not selective truths.

As far as taking sides regarding this proposed New York Islamic community center, you are with the religiously intolerant bigots or against them. I support those who have America's constitution behind them which guarantees religious rights, freedoms and liberties. I oppose allowing a mob of religiously intolerant bigots from restricting people's rights and freedoms.


EAO - Without doubt as you state - "You are consistent" in blindly supporting terror groups and being completely Anti-Jew-Israel -
Yep, you are consistent alright