Middle East War - Iran- Syria -Lebanon - Israel - US

[earth_as_one]

CB, I read your last post. It wasn't insulting, nor did it have any juvenile name calling. If you could post like that consistently, I'd have no problem reading your posts and debating you. So I'm taking you off my ignore list for now. But one insult or violation of forum rules and you are back on.

A big difference between us, is that I don't see any race or religion as homogeneous. Jews and Muslims both have extremists and moderates. You seem unable to recognize Jewish extremism or Muslim moderates. I label people as criminals based on their actions, not their religion. You label Muslims as terrorists and Jews as victims. I disagree. Some Muslims are terrorists and others are victims. Some Jews are terrorists and others are victims.

I've read what Iran's leaders actually have said regarding Israel and the overwhelming majority including those who hold power aren't calling for a genocidal slaughter as commonly portrayed in the MSM. Most of Iran's leaders including President Ahmadinejad have consistently called for peaceful referendums, where both Jews and Arabs get one vote each. Right now, about 5 million Arabs have no citizenship, no vote and no rights. Of course I realize that Iran's position would lead to the end of the Zionist state of Israel. I am also in favor of ending the Zionist state of Israel and would support a secular state of Israelastine, where Jews and Arabs live together in peace as they did for centuries before Zionism. I'd even support Zionism (migration of Jews to this region), as long as it was peaceful and fair. But Zionism in its current form is cruel, violent and unfair. At least that how I interpret tossing people out of their homes, abducting civilians and torturing them, summary executions (aka targeted assassinations), using civilians (including women and children) literally as human shields, gunning down civilians in cold blood as they try to evacuate a war zone under a white flag of truce, deliberately attacking hospitals, ambulances, doctors and medics, using WP and high explosive shells in densely populated urban areas, preventing the Red Cross from evacuating women and children as they die of thirst.... need I go on? I consider these Zionist activities at least as cruel as the shelling of Israeli civilians with mortars and rockets by Arab militants.

I'm not in favor of keeping millions of people stateless or endless war (the current one state solution). The Zionists have no intention of ever allowing Palestinians their own state. Its been 43 years and all I see is one state and millions of people suffering ever more severe injustice and oppression. Time has ran out for the "Two State" solution.

I don't support the violent overthrow of the Zionist state of Israel and creating yet another refugee problem and more atrocities as favored by a minority of Arabs with extreme viewpoints. I am in favor of a carefully controlled and planned peaceful transition over time from the current situation to secular one state Democracy. Israel isn't too small to be a single state. Peace is a state of mind and an attitude. Extremists on both sides are not interested in peace and they justify their aggression with references to land and religion, when its really about intolerance. The tolerant moderates on both sides are the overwhelming majority. While war exists, and outside states support the extremists on both sides and the moderates have little to no say.

 

[CDNBear]

CB, I read your last post. It wasn't insulting, nor did it have any juvenile name calling.

Like the majority of my posts.

If you could post like that consistently, I'd have no problem reading your posts and debating you.

If you actually debated instead of preach, then ignore, I would be more consistently "nice".

So I'm taking you off my ignore list for now.

I highly doubt I've been on it at all.

But one insult or violation of forum rules and you are back on.

I'm sure I'm already "back on it".

A big difference between us, is that I don't see any race or religion as homogeneous.

Actually that's not true, I don't see them as homogeneous, and you generalize.

Jews and Muslims both have extremists and moderates.

Agreed, which is why I don't defend actual war crimes, nor do I attack Muslims. I defend alleged crimes until the evidence dictates otherwise, and attack Islam.

You seem unable to recognize Jewish extremism or Muslim moderates.

You make to many generalizations and accusations.

I label people as criminals based on their actions, not their religion.

You believe whatever is said about Israel, and whatever is said by Hamas. Please stop trying to look objective. I've spent hundreds of hours proving you aren't.

You label Muslims as terrorists and Jews as victims.

No I label Islam as abhorrent, Muslims I examine individually. Jews are just a part of a religion, I'm not all that fond of either, Israeli's have made many errors, I examine each one on its merits. Unlike yourself. But if we really want to get into a debate on which religion I think is worse, there's already threads on the matter.

I disagree. Some Muslims are terrorists and others are victims. Some Jews are terrorists and others are victims.

Yet, all Israeli's lie, unless they support your position and Hamas never lies. Are you following me?

I've read what Iran's leaders actually have said regarding Israel and the overwhelming majority including those who hold power aren't calling for a genocidal slaughter as commonly portrayed in the MSM.

You're not being honest eao. They may not use the exact phrase, but the context is identical.

Most of Iran's leaders including President Ahmadinejad have consistently called for peaceful referendums, where both Jews and Arabs get one vote each. Right now, about 5 million Arabs have no citizenship, no vote and no rights.

They should take that up in their perspective countries. Because in Israel, Arabs have the right to vote.

Again, you're not being honest.

need I go on?

No, I've been reading your rhetoric for years. Even in th eface of undeniable facts, you still maintain your views, simply because...well...I don't know why eao. I really don't. I have an idea though.

I consider these Zionist activities at least as cruel as the shelling of Israeli civilians with mortars and rockets by Arab militants.

Ya, but only one is your regular target for scorn and contempt. There's much to be said about balance. Kind of like when I chastise Israel, for indiscriminant retaliation.

I'm not in favor of keeping millions of people stateless or endless war (the current one state solution).

I realize that. You want Canada to absorb Tamils, why shouldn't Jordan, Iran, Lebanon or Syria absorb Palestinians?

The Zionists have no intention of ever allowing Palestinians their own state. Its been 43 years and all I see is one state and millions of people suffering ever more severe injustice and oppression. Time has ran out for the "Two State" solution.

The only people stopping Gaza from being a state, are the Arabs.

I don't support the violent overthrow of the Zionist state of Israel and creating yet another refugee problem and more atrocities as favored by a minority of Arabs with extreme viewpoints. I am in favor of a carefully controlled and planned peaceful transition over time from the current situation to secular one state Democracy.

That would be nice, but I think you may be purposely blind to some pretty undeniable facts.

Israel isn't too small to be a single state. Peace is a state of mind and an attitude.

IActually agree.

Extremists on both sides are not interested in peace and they justify their aggression with references to land and religion, when its really about intolerance. The tolerant moderates on both sides are the overwhelming majority.

While being overwhelmingly silent.

While war exists, and outside states support the extremists on both sides and the moderates have little to no say.

By choice.

eao, you and I will never agree on the Israeli/Arab issue. You refuse to acknowledge certain undeniable facts, let alone the mere fact that I do not condone war crimes. Nor do I believe everything that comes out of the US or Israel. I believe facts, the rule of law, and not that as interpreted by some favourable organization, but law itself. This is where you and I will remain at an impasse.

On this issue, I think it is counterproductive to assume much about Iran's intentions. That isn't to say I trust Iran, it's led by a moron, and guided by Islamofascist Mullahs.

But that doesn't mean we should condone an act of war to bring them to their knees either.

Both outcomes leave a bad feeling in my gut. I just choose not to put all the blame on one side. While being misleading and dishonest about the other. While I have been giving you thumbs up in this thread, it's because I agree with not swallowing the MSM info on the matter and that Iran does have a right to nuclear energy. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[L Gilbert]

I don't think it matters if Iran has nukes or not. If N Korea, as thoroughly nutty as it is, has nukes and won't use them, then WTF difference does it make if Iran has them. They have to be sane enough to know that if they use one one another country, they'd be smeared into oblivion.
So I didn't answer the poll.

 

[weaselwords]

I don't think there should be a lot of worry about Iran's capability to enrich uranium. They only have a stockpile of about 1 tonne of uranium oxide from all I've read, with that one tonne they'd at most have 42Kg of U235 @ 20% making for very inefficent and dirty weapon or 6.2Kg @ 90% no where near what would be required for a critical mass. There doesn't seem to be a willing supplier for more raw material so a U235 weapon doesn't seem to be on the horizon.
What I am more concerned about is a Plutonium weapon considering Iran is building a Heavy water facility & Breeder reactor (with Russian expertise) in Arak. The Breeder scheduled to be on line sometime in 2013 so there is some breathing room before any decision must be made. However the thought of Iran have close to a tonne of U238 to breed is not going to help you sleep at night as 2013 approaches.

 

[MHz]

If Israel is going to hit the reactor(s) then they would wait until there was plenty of material to spread radiation around. Think how much DU that will save them from having to use to corrupt Iran's ability to bring healthy babies into the world. Look how well it has worked for them (and the US) in the other places it has been used.

 

[Goober]

If Israel is going to hit the reactor(s) then they would wait until there was plenty of material to spread radiation around. Think how much DU that will save them from having to use to corrupt Iran's ability to bring healthy babies into the world. Look how well it has worked for them in the other places it has been used.

Is that what you would do?

 

[MHz]

I wasn't aware of putting an option on the table meant it should be moved to choice #1. Some articles I have read on the subject said it their was fuel there then no attack could take place. That isn't true it would just be a bigger mess and many more people would die (in an indirect way).

If a terrorist wanted to use something as big as a a-bomb why not try to split that volcano in the Canary Islands with the hope that the landslide and resulting wave would take out the whole east coast of America. (and Canada and Central and South America being the collateral damage).

Here is a quick question, if the leaders of the Nations had no form of 'escape' in times of attack would they take better care to make sure they weren't attacked? Today they just head for the bunkers and several million that had nothing to do with take the brunt of the 'reprisal'? If they can cause a nuclear attack they shouldn't be in power in the first place and preserving them as the power is a move that is twice as bad as the one that gave them power.
Having that escape card means they can play it as loose as they want without fear of ever being in the direct line of fire.

 

[Goober]

I wasn't aware of putting an option on the table meant it should be moved to choice #1. Some articles I have read on the subject said it their was fuel there then no attack could take place. That isn't true it would just be a bigger mess and many more people would die (in an indirect way).

If a terrorist wanted to use something as big as a a-bomb why not try to split that volcano in the Canary Islands with the hope that the landslide and resulting wave would take out the whole east coast of America. (and Canada and Central and South America being the collateral damage).

That one is nothing - Take out the artifical land / reff that has formed from the volcanic eruption in Hawaawi - The lava flows into the ocean creating an arifical reef ledge - been flowinf for years - when that puppy breaks off - It will be felt from all the western side on NA & Sa - Africa - Japan - Asia - One mother of a wave.

 

[MHz]

Why would Israel and the US care about contaminating the land and the people? With the plans they have on the table today how many tons of DU munitions would be use in a full campaign meant to make sure they have no military of industrial strength left. With a depopulated land all you need are the pipelines to bring it far enough west to be out of the danger zone.

 

[petros]

I'm not in favor of keeping millions of people stateless or endless war (the current one state solution). The Zionists have no intention of ever allowing Palestinians their own state. Its been 43 years and all I see is one state and millions of people suffering ever more severe injustice and oppression. Time has ran out for the "Two State" solution.

Palestine is a state with it's own government, cultures, religions, education system etc. Israel recognizes that but they never said how big it should be or how long they should let it exist there is the problem. The Zionist got what they wanted. Nice beach homes on the Med and all the other groups like the Conservatives, Commie Kibbutzers and Haredi are squabbling over the rest of the country. The atheist Zionists and Masons have their policy of "**** the rest of them, we'll let their god sort it all out" and they have no problems making good money arming everybody to get it over with quicker and will just walk in once it is all sorted out.

 

[AnnaG]

If Israel is going to hit the reactor(s) then they would wait until there was plenty of material to spread radiation around. Think how much DU that will save them from having to use to corrupt Iran's ability to bring healthy babies into the world. Look how well it has worked for them (and the US) in the other places it has been used.

Really? You have links to this widespread use of depleted uranium by Israel?

 

[MHz]

Are you claiming that Israel didn't use those types of weapons in Lebanon in '06? Where did I say 'widespread' or is that just part of your nature to add things not stated. I have a better idea, prove they didn't. Bye

 

[CDNBear]

Are you claiming that Israel didn't use those types of weapons in Lebanon in '06? Where did I say 'widespread' or is that just part of your nature to add things not stated. I have a better idea, prove they didn't. Bye

Liar.

 

[ironsides]

Why would Israel and the US care about contaminating the land and the people? With the plans they have on the table today how many tons of DU munitions would be use in a full campaign meant to make sure they have no military of industrial strength left. With a depopulated land all you need are the pipelines to bring it far enough west to be out of the danger zone.

One or two bunker busters would do the trick. A blown up working reactor does not release DU, it is much worse. How do you know what Israel or the U.S. is going to do, unless you and President Obama are buddies.

 

[Goober]

Are you claiming that Israel didn't use those types of weapons in Lebanon in '06? Where did I say 'widespread' or is that just part of your nature to add things not stated. I have a better idea, prove they didn't. Bye

Quote: Originally Posted by MHz

If Israel is going to hit the reactor(s) then they would wait until there was plenty of material to spread radiation around. Think how much DU that will save them from having to use to corrupt Iran's ability to bring healthy babies into the world. Look how well it has worked for them (and the US) in the other places it has been used.

MHZ

Where did I state widespread - Are you taking over for SJP while he is on his little sojourn
You absolute hatred of Israel is based upon the Bible - So be it - But do not play SJP's " i did not state game" you do not rise to the occasion

You clearly stated that Israel they should wait to cause as much damage with radioactive fallout as possible.
That just give more insight into your living, breathing, foreseeing by the Bible as interpreted by you.

Now i am sure that if you sat down with some real Theologians of differing faiths, you would be like the spare prick at the wedding. Of no value to contribute.

Myself - i recall world renowned theologians having a debate on the Death penalty - Some were for and some were against - and they all quoted he bible.

Me - i will be judged as to how i lived - not filled with hatred towards a group - ethnic or otherwise - Not based upon what i think gods plan is because i think that it is an affront to God to try and tell people what you think he means -

Try living by the big 10 and the teachings of Jesus and you may be a far happier and I am sure a better man.

So endeth the Lesson on basic living according to the Word of God.


​

 

[damngrumpy]

If there is to be a war in the Middle East it will spread quickly but the sides chosen might surprise some. A conflict will not be about Iran and it weapons program a
Middle Eastern War could result if the ****e Muslims take control of Iraq. It can be
said, that the Sunni Muslims who are Arabs, will not take well to the conclusion that
in their midst is a Persian regime. That could upset the balance of power among
the fighting cousins and this would draw in the United States, the Russians and God
knows who else. I believe the Mid East war is a few years off but I also believe we
will face a showdown with the Muslim World and we should be preparing for the
event both at home and in the Middle East. If it does get going it would be like
the Nazi Regime in Germany declaring Total War. What most don't realize it will
be a longer rather than a short conflict.

 

[MHz]

One or two bunker busters would do the trick. A blown up working reactor does not release DU, it is much worse. How do you know what Israel or the U.S. is going to do, unless you and President Obama are buddies.

No, I have yet to even receive one Christmas card from the boys in the White House.

Are you trying to say if it was 'fully operational' it would be declared a 'non-target'? I don't believe you.

Where did I state widespread - Are you taking over for SJP while he is on his little sojourn

I wasn't even aware he was gone. Hope he's having a great time. Are you going to tell him that you missed him?

You absolute hatred of Israel is based upon the Bible - So be it - But do not play SJP's " i did not state game" you do not rise to the occasion

I narrow my gaze at anybody who is as war bent as they are. The best solutions they can come up with Lebanon on '06 and the 1500 in Gaza a few years later. Their main partner is not the most trustworthy Nation when it comes to adhering to the agreements they signed.
I'll leave the rest of that to SJP maybe he can make heads or tails out of it.

You clearly stated that Israel they should wait to cause as much damage with radioactive fallout as possible.
That just give more insight into your living, breathing, foreseeing by the Bible as interpreted by you.

Let me state it again. Having the reactor fueled up would not halt Israel or the US from destroying it and releasing a large amount of radiation. Is that the new genocide weapon? Would they intentionally delay the destruction so it would do more damage? If you believe that it has never been discussed then you aren't very war-like.

Do you believe this operation was planed only in the few weeks before they were forced to carry it out?

Their favorite weapon for Lebanon is a carpet bombing just at the end of the campaign)s).
Israel/Lebanon: Israel and Hizbullah must spare civilians: Obligations under International Humanitarian Law of the Parties to the Conflict in Israel and Lebanon
8.2 Cluster weapons
Cluster bombs or shells scatter scores of bomblets, or submunitions, over a wide area, typically the size of one or two football fields. These can be dropped by aircraft, or fired by artillery or rocket launchers. Depending on which type of submunition is used, between about five and twenty per cent or more cluster bomblets fail to explode. They are then left behind as explosive remnants of war, posing a threat to civilians similar to anti-personnel landmines.
AI is calling for a moratorium on the use of cluster weapons. These bombs present a high risk of violating the prohibition of indiscriminate attack, because of the wide area covered by the numerous bomblets released and the danger posed to all those, including civilians, who come into contact with the unexploded bomblets.
Human Rights Watch (HRW) has reported that Israeli forces fired artillery cluster shells on the Lebanese village of Blida on 19 July, killing one and wounding 12 civilians. According to HRW, the type of cluster munition likely to have been used in this attack is the M483A1 Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions, which are U.S.-produced and -supplied, artillery-delivered cluster munitions. The M483A1 artillery shells deliver 88 cluster submunitions per shell, and have failure rate (dud rate) of 14 percent.
Israel also used cluster munitions in Lebanon during the 1970s and 1980s.
8.3 Depleted Uranium Weapons
Depleted uranium is a chemically toxic and radioactive heavy metal used particularly in armour-piercing ammunition. DU weapons are denser than conventional arms, meaning they can penetrate heavy armour more easily. They burn up on impact, creating a radioactive dust, the effect of which remains the subject of safety debates. Like other heavy metals, DU is toxic and constitutes a health risk independent of any residual radioactivity.
AI is calling on governments to consider refraining from the transfer and use of depleted uranium (DU) weapons. There is much controversy over their long-term effects. Some studies suggest that DU dust, which remains in the vicinity of targets struck by DU weapons, poses a significant health risk if inhaled or ingested. AI calls for a moratorium on their use pending authoritative conclusions on their long-term effects on human health and the environment.
According to media reports, the USA is transferring GBU 28 bunker-buster bombs containing depleted-uranium warheads to Israel for use against targets in Lebanon.

Now i am sure that if you sat down with some real Theologians of differing faiths, you would be like the spare prick at the wedding. Of no value to contribute.

I guess you will never know.

Myself - i recall world renowned theologians having a debate on the Death penalty - Some were for and some were against - and they all quoted he bible.

They probably read the Bible to the retarded before they execute people in Texas. How can you have a 'debate' over something that is covered in just one chapter. In Romans 13 the sword against evil is controled by the ones we pay taxes to. The money of Rome identified who owned it. The sword was given limitations and that would cover less than 10 verses. Just what is there to debate after that?
That same sword can be taken over by a corrupt Govt and then it is used against the people it is meant to protect. I'll spare you eyes the relative verses.

Me - i will be judged as to how i lived - not filled with hatred towards a group - ethnic or otherwise - Not based upon what i think gods plan is because i think that it is an affront to God to try and tell people what you think he means -

So now it is an affront to God to talk about Christ and the Prophecies that go along with that.
Cheering the killing of civilians and waging wars based on known lies is now the ideal that is to be upheld. The 'old blitzkrieg' was bad but the 'new blitzkrieg' is a masterful way to wage war. Please have one of your 'knowledgeable ones' post the relevant verses.

Try living by the big 10 and the teachings of Jesus and you may be a far happier and I am sure a better man.

Got a passage that sums that up?

So endeth the Lesson on basic living according to the Word of God.

Almost you forgot to end with an 'Amen' when you are preaching.
​

I believe the Mid East war is a few years off but I also believe we
will face a showdown with the Muslim World and we should be preparing for the
event both at home and in the Middle East. If it does get going it would be like
the Nazi Regime in Germany declaring Total War. What most don't realize it will
be a longer rather than a short conflict.

What if they gained power by an open and honest election? We don't mind admitting that Canada is a Christian dominated Government.

It might be easier to convert them into the Christian fold than it is trying to turn around the wayward Christians.

 

[ironsides]

.

"No, I have yet to even receive one Christmas card from the boys in the White House.

Are you trying to say if it was 'fully operational' it would be declared a 'non-target'? I don't believe you."



If it was fully operational we wouldn't be having this conversation, it would be destroyed. But it is about 80% operational so the question about what to do is coming fast. President Obama doesn't have the courage to make it though, so it narrows down just who will.

 

[MHz]

If it was fully operational we wouldn't be having this conversation, it would be destroyed.

Doesn't that just prove my 'all options on the table' shows that once the fuel-rods are on site then it remains an active target. That they are still standing means 'whomever' has been holding back and the only reason to do that would seem to be wait and when it is fully operational then destroy it. Not only killing the plant but also all the inhabitants in the fall-out zone (eventually). Israel already targets 12 year old kids in Gaza

But it is about 80% operational so the question about what to do is coming fast. President Obama doesn't have the courage to make it though, so it narrows down just who will.

Is that what all our new fighters are for. I would have thought a series of S-400 defense systems would be a better deterrent to being invaded. Luckily we have the US to the south to 'slow-em-down'.
If things go wrong with that move I hope they come up with a better story than the ill-fated 'rescue' mission where the 'NAVY' forgot about the desert having 'DUST' and therefore 'FORGOT' to put on any air-filters and the first way-point was also the end of the mission.

 

[CDNBear]

Israel already targets 12 year old kids in Gaza

Liar.