The Iroquois Nationals team won't be attending the world championship in Manchester

gerryh

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I am sure I am being set up but in my opinion they are

First Nations
French
English

Waiting to be corrected


First Nations? Which First Nations? The 6 Nations......... Huron.......Blackfoot...... Salish....... Do I need to list EVERY "First Nation" in Canada? Aside from that, the "First Nations" people had sweet dick all for input into the founding of Canada. Neither the French or English considered them to be equals, and England, since they were the conquering Nation, considered the First Nations more of a nusance than anything else.

Stating that Canada was 3 founding nations is revisionist bullsh*t.
 

petros

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Nov 21, 2008
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Oh so you painted it that colour, I thought you meant they painted it that colour, lmao.

I once painted a 1968 Beetle safety yellow with pink and purple paisleys. I was high a lot. What's your excuse?

LOL.
I built a toy box for my nephew and niece and got carried away cleaning my rollers and brushes. Was I high? I'll let the wheelbarrow answer that one.
 

CDNBear

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First Nations? Which First Nations? The 6 Nations......... Huron.......Blackfoot...... Salish....... Do I need to list EVERY "First Nation" in Canada?
Probably not, since he used the plural of the title First Nations. Unless of course you're nit picking and looking for a fight?

Aside from that, the "First Nations" people had sweet dick all for input into the founding of Canada. Neither the French or English considered them to be equals, and England, since they were the conquering Nation, considered the First Nations more of a nusance than anything else.
Yes and no.

Stating that Canada was 3 founding nations is revisionist bullsh*t.
I disagree, and you know I can back that up with evidence.

You're being far to general Gh.

I built a toy box for my nephew and niece and got carried away cleaning my rollers and brushes. Was I high? I'll let the wheelbarrow answer that one.
Gotchya!
 

Kreskin

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Feb 23, 2006
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It's too bad they just didn't get some passports to begin with. I'd love to see them their representing the Iroquois nation. Plus, from what I've seen, most natives aren't against being Canadian. Some of the people I know who are the biggest and proudest supporters of events like Canada Day are Native Indian. I doubt many, or any, of the players would be against getting a Canadian passport.

Get the politics out of the way so these fine athletes can play and represent their roots.
 

Goober

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First Nations? Which First Nations? The 6 Nations......... Huron.......Blackfoot...... Salish....... Do I need to list EVERY "First Nation" in Canada? Aside from that, the "First Nations" people had sweet dick all for input into the founding of Canada. Neither the French or English considered them to be equals, and England, since they were the conquering Nation, considered the First Nations more of a nusance than anything else.

Stating that Canada was 3 founding nations is revisionist bullsh*t.

The question posed as I stated I knew I was being set up - The question did not have any qualifiers as time lines etc - I gave my answer as people today would or should understand who the founders of this country really were.

Now if you wish please start another thread on your point.

I am sure that you are more than well qualified for picking flyshxt out of pepper.
 

CDNBear

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It's too bad they just didn't get some passports to begin with.
They already have what was once an internationally recognized passport.

Would you jump right up and get an American passport if you were told that your Canadian one would no longer get you into a country it has in the past?

I'd love to see them their representing the Iroquois nation. Plus, from what I've seen, most natives aren't against being Canadian. Some of the people I know who are the biggest and proudest supporters of events like Canada Day are Native Indian. I doubt many, or any, of the players would be against getting a Canadian passport.
Maybe not against, but against being forced. Especially since the Six Nations is one of the single greatest contributors of personnel to the Canadian Armed Forces. Out of all Canadian First Nations.

Get the politics out of the way so these fine athletes can play and represent their roots.
Well said.
 

gerryh

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Probably not, since he used the plural of the title First Nations. Unless of course you're nit picking and looking for a fight?

He stated 3 nations, not 3 peoples. The "First Nations" of Canada are made up of multiple independent Indian Nations, are they not? Not just "one big happy family" like England or France.


I disagree, and you know I can back that up with evidence.

Then you do that, just remember, we are talking about founding NATIONS , not PEOPLE.
 

Kreskin

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Feb 23, 2006
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They already have what was once an internationally recognized passport.

Would you jump right up and get an American passport if you were told that your Canadian one would no longer get you into a country it has in the past?

Maybe not against, but against being forced. Especially since the Six Nations is one of the single greatest contributors of personnel to the Canadian Armed Forces. Out of all Canadian First Nations.

Well said.
I wouldn't get an American because I'm Canadian, are so are the Canadian members of the Iroquois team.

I bet if you pulled each one aside for an opinion, away from the elements who are fueling this, I doubt they could care less about getting a Canadian passport.
 

captain morgan

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They already have what was once an internationally recognized passport.

I realize that I'm wading into the issue well after the fact, however, I can't help but notice that many are equating the Iroquois "passport" with the formal document released through the (Canadian/American) federal gvt(s).

Chances are, the Iroquois passport was treated more like a driver's license than it was viewed as a federally sponsored document. It wasn't so long ago that a D/L and/or birth certificate would get you through customs in a number of nations, but as you are well aware, you can no longer cross international borders without a formal passport...
 

CDNBear

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I realize that I'm wading into the issue well after the fact, however, I can't help but notice that many are equating the Iroquois "passport" with the formal document released through the (Canadian/American) federal gvt(s).
I'm under no such delusions.

Chances are, the Iroquois passport was treated more like a driver's license than it was viewed as a federally sponsored document. It wasn't so long ago that a D/L and/or birth certificate would get you through customs in a number of nations, but as you are well aware, you can no longer cross international borders without a formal passport...
Yes, which is why I made a post a little ways back that placed a great deal of blame upon our leaders, for not keeping up with security requirements. For whatever reason.
 

Downhome_Woman

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He stated 3 nations, not 3 peoples. The "First Nations" of Canada are made up of multiple independent Indian Nations, are they not? Not just "one big happy family" like England or France.

Then you do that, just remember, we are talking about founding NATIONS , not PEOPLE.

I hope that's sarcasm - your remark, "just "one big happy family" like England or France" Because if you're talking 'England' well maybe, but if you're talking Great Britian, think again.
A large number of the Welsh do not consider themselves to be 'English' and really don't wish to be part of Great Britain - same goes for the Scottish. And then don't forget those 'happy family members' in Northern Ireland.
And then there's France. Go to Britanny and ask around to see how many like being part of the 'French' family. they were marginalized for years. When De Gaulle was over here rabbiting on about 'Vive la Quebec Libre', the Bretons were forbidden to speak their own language in school, and there were even restrictive signage laws.
But then again I would imagine you're probably ok with that as they were conquered nations and they should really stop whining....yup - sure hope that was sarcasm ......
 

Machjo

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No, there is no recognised country called Iroquois.

Actually there is. The Treaties with the Iroquois nations are in fact international treaties signed on an equal footing. If we never intended to recognize them as nations, then we should never have signed those treaties. We've signed them, and in doing so officially recognized their nationhood under the law whether we accept it or not.

Now wait a minute folks -- I read a long time ago where the Iroquois Confederation of New York sent a team to play back in England during the 1870s. They weren't USA citizens back then. Why was London willing to accept Haudenosaunee back then but not today?

The only thing I can think of is that England is afraid they're going to lose and don't have the sportsmanship to take on a tougher team. Don't know if it's true but they should allow the Iroquois to play. If not, then England should be boycotted.

And what would a boycott accomplish?

Just make sure next time they have such tournaments, that they always have them in a country that will recognize all of these passports.

But the point is the Haudenosaunee passport was always recognized due to treaty rights between Washington, DC and Native American nations. A Mohawk friend I had a long time ago used his to attend an Amerind convention in Bolivia (if my memory is correct). There was no problem back then. Never has been so far as I know.

Yes, but Bolivia never colonized Iroquois land, so there is no embarrassment for them there. For the British to accept such passports is essentially acknowledging that there was a nation there before the British took that land. It's a blow to British pride in a righteous image of their history. My guess is there are some emotions at play here n the UK owing to their historical relationship with the Iroquois and so are playing politics to try to save face, not realizing they're just losing face in the process.

The British government's decision was announced hours after the U.S. cleared the team for travel on a one-time waiver at the behest of Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton. U.S. authorities initially had refused to accept the passports issued by the Iroquois Confederacy, which lack new security features now required for border crossings because of post-Sept. 11 crackdowns on document fraud and illegal immigration.
Asked why the State Department had dropped its opposition, spokesman P.J. Crowley said: "There was flexibility there to grant this kind of one-time waiver given the unique circumstances of this particular trip."
U.S. Rep. Dan Maffei, D-N.Y., urged the British to reconsider their decision.


Read more: UK won't let Iroquois lacrosse team go to tourney - Wire - NewsObserver.com



UK won't let Iroquois lacrosse team go to tourney - Wire - NewsObserver.com


Oh my. I remember meeting a Muslim in Ottawa who was of either the Oddawa, Algonquin or Oibwe nation I believe. You never know, some Mohawks might have adopted Islam too, and if that's the case, then maybe they have bombs hidden in their lacrosse balls;-)
 

CDNBear

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Yes, but Bolivia never colonized Iroquois land, so there is no embarrassment for them there. For the British to accept such passports is essentially acknowledging that there was a nation there before the British took that land. It's a blow to British pride in a righteous image of their history. My guess is there are some emotions at play here n the UK owing to their historical relationship with the Iroquois and so are playing politics to try to save face, not realizing they're just losing face in the process.
I gave you a thumbs up before you added this. My thumbs up still stands, but...

I think this is actually a bit of a stretch Mach, these passports have been used to enter the UK before. This time, the only the things to have changed were the security features.

The passport in question is almost identical to the old Canadian style.
 

Machjo

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"if they abided with the laws they wouldn't have been this situation."

Yeah like the Constitution and the Jay Treaty of 1794 aren't law. Rather it is the government of England that has failed to recognize a law it signed and has recognized for over 200 years:


Onondaga Nation - People of the Hills


THE HAUDENOSAUNEE CONFEDERACY:
SOVEREIGNTY, CITIZENSHIP and PASSPORTS
The Haudenosaunee Confederacy was formed by our Peacemaker over 1000 years ago, according to our Gayanashagowa, or Great Law of Peace; and it is the oldest continuous democratic government in North America. Our system of confederated government was acknowledged as the model for your government by the United States Congress in 1987.

The Haudenosaunee have been traveling on our own passports for over 30 years and they have been accepted into dozens of countries. There has never been a security issue raised during this extensive travel history. Our Nationals lacrosse team has traveled to Japan, Australia and other countries on Haudenosaunee passports in the past. Haudenosaunee citizens and leaders have traveled extensively this year on our passports. We do not have a satisfactory explanation as to why policy has abruptly been changed.

The Haudenosaunee hold some of the earliest Treaties made by the US government: the 1784 Treaty of Fort Stanwix, the 1789 Treaty of Harmor and the historic 1794 Treaty of Canandaigua. These Treaties were made in the spirit of our first treaty with the European settlers: the Guswenta, or Two Row Wampum, an agreement of mutual respect and non-interference we made with the Dutch in 1613, as they first entered our territory.

The Treaty of Canandaigua is still acknowledged and celebrated every year on its anniversary, November 11th, by the respective governments. As recently as February of this year, the United State Department of Justice re-affirmed the continued validity of the Treaty of Canandaigua in an Amicus brief it filed in New York State Court of Appeals, in support of the Cayuga Nation, by positively reaffirming that the Treaty is still valid and that the Cayuga Nation reservation recognized in the Treaty has not been disestablished.

These treaties are between sovereigns: the United States as one party and the Six Nations of the Haudenosaunee as the other party. These treaties are clear evidence that we are a separate sovereign and that our citizens are not US citizens, despite the unilateral attempt by the US in 1924 with its Citizenship Act. The Haudenosaunee sent a clear letter to the President of the US in 1924 stating that we were not willing to relinquish our citizenship.

Further, our right to pass over the US/Canadian border freely is protected by Article III of the 1794 Jay Treaty, which guaranteed “Indians dwelling on either side” of the international boundary the right “freely to pass and repass by land or inland navigation” into either Canada or the United States. (8 Stat. 116.)

For many years, Haudenosaunee citizens have traveled using our own passports and identification cards. In our view, the term “freely” in the Jay Treaty means that burdensome documentation requirements cannot be lawfully imposed without our consent. Our right to carry our own documentation is a part of our right to self determination. In recent years, we have worked hard to ensure that the federal government continues to respect our right to carry our own documentation.

Nya wenha and dawnaytoh,

Oren Lyons
Faithkeeper, Turtle Clan
Onondaga Nation

Law schmaw; justice schmustice. Now it's the power of vigilante law-making by the seat of our pants with the power of an army behind us that matters. Respect for the law is just so overrated;-)

I gave you a thumbs up before you added this. My thumbs up still stands, but...

I think this is actually a bit of a stretch Mach, these passports have been used to enter the UK before. This time, the only the things to have changed were the security features.

The passport in question is almost identical to the old Canadian style.

Fair enough. But while I'm well aware that there are Muslims among the First Nations generally, and so wouldn't be surprised to find that there may be some Iroquois Muslims too, does the British government honestly believe that an Iroquois Muslim would try to sneak a bomb in along with his lacrosse team? Let's be serious here.

I wouldn't get an American because I'm Canadian, are so are the Canadian members of the Iroquois team.

I bet if you pulled each one aside for an opinion, away from the elements who are fueling this, I doubt they could care less about getting a Canadian passport.

I don't know about the Iroquois, but I do have some Algonquin friends who insist they are Algonquins and not Canadians, even when not in the presence of other Algonquins, and I doubt they fear that I'll go rat them out to their friends.
 

CDNBear

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Fair enough. But while I'm well aware that there are Muslims among the First Nations generally, and so wouldn't be surprised to find that there may be some Iroquois Muslims too, does the British government honestly believe that an Iroquois Muslim would try to sneak a bomb in along with his lacrosse team? Let's be serious here.
I am, and I haven't even given the notion of Muslim Natives a second thought. It's irrelevant at this point. The Brits have stated their concerns, of which there is nothing about Muslims.

I don't fully agree with them, but I can understand them and I fully accept their right to dictate who may or may not enter their country.
 

Machjo

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Then again, just as a humorous aside, many Iroquois are Catholic; maybe England fears an Iroquois Irish alliance on English-soil?

I am, and I haven't even given the notion of Muslim Natives a second thought. It's irrelevant at this point. The Brits have stated their concerns, of which there is nothing about Muslims.

I don't fully agree with them, but I can understand them and I fully accept their right to dictate who may or may not enter their country.

Fair enough. In principle you are right that a nation can do what it wants. On the other hand, it also has to be able to explain its reason for its decision to avoid speculation and embarrassment, assuming they care about that of course.

But overall you are right.
 

Machjo

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Nowhere on this thread did I try to insult anyone but bear just jumps in with his name calling and insults. This shouldn't surprise me because it is the way he has always operated. I guess the way to insult bear is to disagree with him. The best way to handle this sort of thing is to just ignore him.

You're doing a fine job of ignoring him there Juan.