Judge Cites Charter Preamble - Supremacy of God Recognized- Atheists - 0 - Religion

Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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So perhaps we need grammarians, not lawyers, writing our laws.
If my memory is correct (always a dangerous assumption) it was an observant Roman Catholic politician who was only incidentally trained as a lawyer--Pierre Trudeau--who wrote that sentence, or at least insisted on sticking the reference to God into it. If that's true, he obviously didn't think through the implications of it, which seems a little out of character for him.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Nov 7, 2008
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God - Thank you for this gift you have presented to me on a platter with an apple in his mouth

SJP - Not referring in any way that you are a pig.

Please refer to the court case presently ongoing, in Toronto i believe where a couple of people are stating their smoking pot qualifies as a religion - Numerous experts called as you would know - and funny enough there are criteria to be met. I did not save the article but i am sure it is available some place on the net.

PS - Yours does not qualify - Guess you will have to work on some things to go with that apple.

Also - Would any apple qualify???


Smoking pot is illegal in Canada. One cannot do any illegal act and try to claim it as religion. Suppose somebody starts a religion with murder or rape as the sacrament. Would such a religion be recognized? Certainly not.

Religious freedom is not the license to do anything and everything illegal. So to claim that smoking pot is a religion is nonsense, I don't see the courts granting that.

Applism on the other hand, does not violate any of the existing laws. If somebody seriously started practicing Applism as a religion, it will be no different from any other religion in the eyes of the law.

As to Applism - 1st it would have to be recognized - and SJP and the church of one would not qualify legally as a religion. Dictionary and legal definitions are at times completely different as I am sure you are aware. So that dog don't hunt-Dat der da facts Eh.

Why not? There is nothing that says that a religion must have so many followers for it to be classified as a religion.

Ancient Greek or Roman religions are dead religions. I assume they have zero followers. But if somebody started to worship Zeus or Mercury, it must be recognized as religion and must be treated no differently from Christianity by the law.
 

petros

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Nov 21, 2008
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If my memory is correct (always a dangerous assumption) it was an observant Roman Catholic politician who was only incidentally trained as a lawyer--Pierre Trudeau--who wrote that sentence, or at least insisted on sticking the reference to God into it. If that's true, he obviously didn't think through the implications of it, which seems a little out of character for him.
The Jesuit part is correct but I never knew Trudeau was around in 1960 to help Diefenwanker write the Bill of Rights.

Religious freedom is not the license to do anything and everything illegal. So to claim that smoking pot is a religion is nonsense, I don't see the courts granting that.

Santa Claus and the amanita mushroom are a big part of Christianity. I'd really like to see that being part of tradition once again.
 

TenPenny

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I guess the 'God' bit does come from 1960, and I also don't think it comes from Trudeau:


After one version of the Charter drawn in June 1980 that lasted until September, which said in its preamble that Canadians "shall always be, with the help of God, a free and self-governing people,"[7] the Charter was not going to have a preamble. The current preamble only first appeared in the April 1981 draft, which came relatively late in the process. It was included despite the fact that there was no call for the Charter to have a preamble by the Special Joint Committee which was reviewing the Constitution,[8] and that the prime minister of Canada at the time, Pierre Trudeau, called it "strange" that some of his colleagues wanted God referenced in the Charter. (Trudeau told his MPs, "I don't think God gives a damn whether he's in the constitution or not.") There were, however, various religious and Conservative criticisms of the Charter during its drafting, with fears that denominational schools and Canada's abortion law were threatened. At this time as well, religious groups in Canada such as 100 Huntley Street and the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada were growing and wanted God acknowledged in the Constitution. Despite the Liberal Party of Canada's protests that a better preamble could be written after patriation was achieved, and thus there was no need for the preamble being proposed at the time by the Conservatives, religious groups increased their activism. Trudeau's Justice Minister, Jean Chrétien, said it was the top issue in all of the letters the government was sent during patriation
Farrow identified the Charter preamble as being the successor to, although shorter than, the preamble in the 1960 Canadian Bill of Rights,[10] which reads
“The Parliament of Canada, affirming that the Canadian Nation is founded upon principles that acknowledge the supremacy of God, the dignity and worth of the human person and the position of the family in a society of free men and free institutions; Affirming also that men and institutions remain free only when freedom is founded upon respect for moral and spiritual values and the rule of law;
And being desirous of enshrining these principles and the human rights and fundamental freedoms derived from them, in a Bill of Rights which shall reflect the respect of Parliament for its constitutional authority and which shall ensure the protection of these rights and freedoms in Canada:
 

petros

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I guess the 'God' bit does come from 1960, and I also don't think it comes from Trudeau:
The Charter is merely a rewrite of the Canadian Bill of Rights which apparently very few around here seem to be aware of.
 

TenPenny

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The Charter is merely a rewrite of the Canadian Bill of Rights which apparently very few around here seem to be aware of.

Because it's popular to blame Trudeau for it, and if people knew anything, they'd have to stop doing that.

I didn't realize that the reference to the supremacy of God came from the 1960 BoR, but I do remember the controversy about the preamble from 1980.
 

petros

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Because it's popular to blame Trudeau for it, and if people knew anything, they'd have to stop doing that.

I didn't realize that the reference to the supremacy of God came from the 1960 BoR, but I do remember the controversy about the preamble from 1980.
At least the BoR knocked the Queen off of top position as was originally written into the Constitution Act of 1867.

The Executive Government and Authority of and over Canada is hereby declared to continue and be vested in the Queen.
 

lone wolf

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Smoking pot is illegal in Canada. One cannot do any illegal act and try to claim it as religion. Suppose somebody starts a religion with murder or rape as the sacrament. Would such a religion be recognized? Certainly not.

Religious freedom is not the license to do anything and everything illegal. So to claim that smoking pot is a religion is nonsense, I don't see the courts granting that.

Applism on the other hand, does not violate any of the existing laws. If somebody seriously started practicing Applism as a religion, it will be no different from any other religion in the eyes of the law.



Smoking pot is not illegal in Canada. Possession of pot is ... but then again, if it's in support of your rant, what do facts matter?
 

Goober

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Smoking pot is not illegal in Canada. Possession of pot is ... but then again, if it's in support of your rant, what do facts matter?
And a person can be granted a license to grow for personal use based upon certain medical conditions
 

petros

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And a person can be granted a license to grow for personal use based upon certain medical conditions
Even if you don't have a license you won't get charged for a personal operation UNLESS your turn a nickle. The instant you make money they are all over you.
 

Machjo

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Why not? There is nothing that says that a religion must have so many followers for it to be classified as a religion.

Ancient Greek or Roman religions are dead religions. I assume they have zero followers. But if somebody started to worship Zeus or Mercury, it must be recognized as religion and must be treated no differently from Christianity by the law.

Every single religion started with one follower, so yes I agree.

What's going on in this thread SJP? you and I are not supposed to agree.:lol:

Actually, I was just thinking of another way to understand the Preample to the Charter. Let's say I passed the following law years ago soon after Henry Ford invented the model T:

"Whereas cars can travel at considerable speeds, and

Whereas the movement of many cars on the road needs to be regulated to ensure safety and the efficient flow of traffic,

All drivers must always drive on the right side of the road."

Should I choose to ignore this law, I'd have a number of options available to me in court. I could either disprove the 'whereas' statements by proving that in fact cars can't travel fast, or that there is no need to regulate traffic to ensure its efficient flow.

Or I can disprove the that this specific law actually addresses the 'whereas' parts.

So now looking at the following example from the Preamble:

"Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."

If I chose to ignore the Charter, I could fight it in court in a similar way. I could either try to disprove the statement in the 'whereas' clause, or I could argue that even if it is true, it is a non sequitur, and so the Charter does not apply.

Looking at it that way, if we argue that in a democratic society the government must provide a reason for a law, then we could argue that a 'whereas' clause ought to be mandatory for a law to be legally enforceable. If that's the case though, then you'd want to ensure that:

(1) The 'whereas' clause can be reasonably proven in court to be true, and (2), that the law in question is a logical consequence of the 'whereas' clause as it is generally acceptable to the people, otherwise it is unenforceable.

If we should understand it that way, then unless the government could prove within reason that the 'whereas' clause in the Charter is true, either based on a legal definition or proven fact, and that the content of the Charter itself is a logical consequence of the 'whereas' clause, then the content of the Charter becomes null and void.
 

Scott Free

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Goober;1301622 [FONT=Arial said:
“If God needs to be defended [by a court], then does God need to be defended by those of us who don’t believe in God?”[/FONT]

The threat here is to the power of the nation state. Communism was such a threat because it is atheistic. Without a divine warrant for power leaders need to justify that power. Needing to justify power is the cornerstone of anarchism (not anarchy) which, again, has been the subject of much negative propaganda because it threatens elite power. Meerly gathering 14% of the popular vote (for example) isn a good enough justification for power (though its good enough to form a government), however, when you enter the notion of god and that every man is answerable to a higher authority, it becomes good enough. In short, most western democracies need god because they are fundamentally flawed. They do not free people from elite rule they just redefine it. The basic tenant of universal suffrage doesn't work. It is a nice idea but flawed. Like Stalin said in an election what matters is how you count the votes.
 

TenPenny

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The issue here is not even wither whether God exists, or whether we believe Him to exist, or how we define him. The question is, grammatically speaking, what does it mean and how does that impact the law?

It means that, because Canada was founded on principles including the rule of law and the supremacy of God, these are our rights:...

It doesn't mean that God exists, it means that the idea of a supreme God was one of the ideas that the founders of our country believed in, and therefore, we have these rights.
 

Machjo

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It means that, because Canada was founded on principles including the rule of law and the supremacy of God, these are our rights:...

It doesn't mean that God exists, it means that the idea of a supreme God was one of the ideas that the founders of our country believed in, and therefore, we have these rights.

It can be interpreted in so many different ways. Whoever worded it really wasn't thinking this through.
 

TenPenny

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It can be interpreted in so many different ways. Whoever worded it really wasn't thinking this through.

On the contrary, I think that it was worded very carefully.

If you are religious, you'll like the refernence to God. If you're not, you'll see that it has no practical influence on the rest of the document, it's just fluff.
 

Machjo

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On the contrary, I think that it was worded very carefully.

If you are religious, you'll like the refernence to God. If you're not, you'll see that it has no practical influence on the rest of the document, it's just fluff.

I believe in God, and so in principle like the reference to God in the Charter, as long as it's legal implications are clear. If it's to be just symbolic, then I fully support it. But from the OP, it's clear that it has been interpreted another way that risks leaving it open to multiple interpretations as SJP pointed out with his example with the religion of Applism. As long as he believes in a monotheistic supreme being, it really doesn't matter what his religion is.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Because it's popular to blame Trudeau for it, and if people knew anything, they'd have to stop doing that.

I didn't realize that the reference to the supremacy of God came from the 1960 BoR, but I do remember the controversy about the preamble from 1980.

Blame Trudeau for it? You mean blame Trudeau for the Charter of Rights? What an absurd notion, most Canadians thank Trudeau for the Charter of Rights.

Charter remains very popular with Canadians.
 

Goober

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Machjo

The preamble states - Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the Supremacy of God and the rule of law:
Nowhere does it state that one is above the other - nor less than the other - It is clear that the preamble means that Canada was founded upon these principles and that is the Judeo -Christian belief system as well as the rule of law based upon our European - British/French history including the Magna Carta, and more such as English Common Law, the Napoleonic Code. No more - No less - No legal document that is as complex as this or the as in the US is crystal clear - That is why we have a SCOC and also a Not Withstanding Clause.


Magna Carta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia