To Protest or not to Protest! When is it right?

[Chiliagon]

ok, so yes as a Democratic society we have the right to protest and the right to an assembly.

With the latest issues occurring in Toronto with the G8/G20 summit, we have seen another protest turn into a violent act led by the Black Bloc. :roll:

Now with that being said my question to all is this:

does it make sense anymore to protest? knowing full well that these idiots are going to appear and create more violence and destruction and increase the odds ten fold of innocent people getting arrested, (again??)

I realize that it is our right to do so, so we don't need to go deep into that part of it.. that's not my point. the point is, why do you go to these protests knowingly aware that something stupid will happen?! you may get arrested and have no rights and perhaps even get abused physically by a police officer or two!

Is it worth all the struggle anymore?

the last two big events held in Canada (Vancouver Olympics and Toronto Summit) have both created protests with violent situations. so it's pretty clear that the next big event held in Canada of that magnitude will create yet another.

I'd be the biggest stupidest moron to even think about attending one of these.

you're just putting yourself at the hands of the officers, knowing full well what Will happen!

you are naive to think that things will be ok! Protests lately have always had negative effects because the morons start.

 

[Cliffy]

Perhaps all the protesters should show up fully armed and put the situation on an equal footing - ya know, give back what they get and maybe shoot the Black Bloc and save everybody a lot of grief. Why go to a gun fight only armed with a placard?

 

[Machjo]

There are plenty of ways to protest responsibly such as starting a letter-writing campaign, a petition, writing to the local newspaper, starting a newsletter, voting, shopping responsibly, etc.

With all of these means of protest, taking to the streets is nothing more than an excuse to riot or at least disturb traffic and daily live in the local area. As far as I'm concerned, if you so much as disrupt traffic, you should be fined for disrupting traffic if nothing else. Protest does not mean disrupting others' lives. That's not called protest, but blackmail (i.e. we'll stop disrupting your lives when you finally do as we say).

Perhaps all the protesters should show up fully armed and put the situation on an equal footing - ya know, give back what they get and maybe shoot the Black Bloc and save everybody a lot of grief. Why go to a gun fight only armed with a placard?

Imagine for a moment that people protested every day. Would you not get irate at all the traffic being blocked and the extra time it takes you to get to work every day, not to mention safety owing to paramedics etc. taking longer to get anywhere, etc.?

I realize it was just 3 days, but still it's disrupting the local community's daily life.

 

[RanchHand]

There have been several events of the past few months that lead me to believe
Canada's civil liberties are either on a downward spiral or Canadians just don't take these liberties as seriously as Americans. My point is not so much that these events occurred but that they seemed to result in no repercussions. It's as if Canadians just shrug it off. It will be interesting to see what the next 'incident' of this type will be as they seem to be occurring with increased frequency.


Ann Coulter is prevented from speaking.

MPs refuse to have their expense accounts audited

Statistics Canada reports that hate crimes in Canada increase by 33% in one year

Crosses are burned on the lawns of black families in Nova Scotia

Multiple reports of alleged Canadian war crimes in Afghanistan and the government refuses to do a serious investigation.

Canada spends a billion dollars for security for a 4 day meeting that is orders of magnitude more than any other host country has spent.

The police chief of your largest city more or less makes up laws as he needs them, resulting in 5 times as many arrests as occurred during the same meeting in Pittsburgh and 10 times as many as in London.

 

[Machjo]

Bear in mind though that with the government knowing these thugs would show up, why the hell did it decide to set up in Toronto of all places? Would CFB Esquimalt or some other Navy base not have been cheaper? With the base bordering water, it would have made it easier to defend its flanks. And since it's a military base already, martial law applies on base, and security is already there.

What was Harper thinking?

There have been several events of the past few months that lead me to believe
Canada's civil liberties are either on a downward spiral or Canadians just don't take these liberties as seriously as Americans. My point is not so much that these events occurred but that they seemed to result in no repercussions. It's as if Canadians just shrug it off. It will be interesting to see what the next 'incident' of this type will be as they seem to be occurring with increased frequency.

Perhaps our cultures are different. Americans place more emphasis on freedom, Canada on obligations, comparatively speaking at least.

Ann Coulter is prevented from speaking.

My point exactly. Those protesters should have been charged for disrupting the peace.


MPs refuse to have their expense accounts audited

And the law will prevail and they will have to show them like it or not.


Statistics Canada reports that hate crimes in Canada increase by 33% in one year

And if they are caught, they are charged.



Crosses are burned on the lawns of black families in Nova Scotia

If they are caught, they will be charged.


Multiple reports of alleged Canadian war crimes in Afghanistan and the government refuses to do a serious investigation.

I agree this needs to be investigated, and charges applied as per the law.


Canada spends a billion dollars for security for a 4 day meeting that is orders of magnitude more than any other host country has spent.

I agree this was foolish, but what does that have to do with protest? What what the government protesting here?


The police chief of your largest city more or less makes up laws as he needs them, resulting in 5 times as many arrests as occurred during the same meeting in Pittsburgh and 10 times as many as in London.[/QUOTE]

I agree the police needs to abide by the law. That said, as far as I'm concerned, disrupting traffic should be a good enough reason to fine someone, and if he refuses to disperse, then charges for disobeying a lawful command.

We're not talking about protest here, but disrupting the normal routine of urban life.

 

[RanchHand]

.
.
.
Canada spends a billion dollars for security for a 4 day meeting that is orders of magnitude more than any other host country has spent.

I agree this was foolish, but what does that have to do with protest? What what the government protesting here?


The police chief of your largest city more or less makes up laws as he needs them, resulting in 5 times as many arrests as occurred during the same meeting in Pittsburgh and 10 times as many as in London.

I agree the police needs to abide by the law. That said, as far as I'm concerned, disrupting traffic should be a good enough reason to fine someone, and if he refuses to disperse, then charges for disobeying a lawful command.

We're not talking about protest here, but disrupting the normal routine of urban life.

I was not clear in mentioning 1 billion. What I meant was there doesn't seem to be any accountability of that money and no one's feet are being held to the fire. One billion is not reasonable. If not 'watch dogs' than why isn't the political opposition demanding an accounting. As an American I may have missed it and there is an accounting underway. Also as an American, I am really surprised no one is 'following the money'. This seems to be the type of thing certain reporters live for.


Issuing 'fines' is not what the Toronto police did that actually encouraged the wrath of Iran. The people were actually incarcerated under the guise of enforcing a law that doesn't exist. Again my point is not that this happened but the lack of response to it by Canadians.

 

[AnnaG]

ok, so yes as a Democratic society we have the right to protest and the right to an assembly.

With the latest issues occurring in Toronto with the G8/G20 summit, we have seen another protest turn into a violent act led by the Black Bloc. :roll:

Now with that being said my question to all is this:

does it make sense anymore to protest? knowing full well that these idiots are going to appear and create more violence and destruction and increase the odds ten fold of innocent people getting arrested, (again??)

I realize that it is our right to do so, so we don't need to go deep into that part of it.. that's not my point. the point is, why do you go to these protests knowingly aware that something stupid will happen?! you may get arrested and have no rights and perhaps even get abused physically by a police officer or two!

Is it worth all the struggle anymore?

the last two big events held in Canada (Vancouver Olympics and Toronto Summit) have both created protests with violent situations. so it's pretty clear that the next big event held in Canada of that magnitude will create yet another.

I'd be the biggest stupidest moron to even think about attending one of these.

you're just putting yourself at the hands of the officers, knowing full well what Will happen!

you are naive to think that things will be ok! Protests lately have always had negative effects because the morons start.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Protest&id=465159

 

[Machjo]

I was not clear in mentioning 1 billion. What I meant was there doesn't seem to be any accountability of that money and no one's feet are being held to the fire. One billion is not reasonable. If not 'watch dogs' than why isn't the political opposition demanding an accounting. As an American I may have missed it and there is an accounting underway. Also as an American, I am really surprised no one is 'following the money'. This seems to be the type of thing certain reporters live for.


Issuing 'fines' is not what the Toronto police did that actually encouraged the wrath of Iran. The people were actually incarcerated under the guise of enforcing a law that doesn't exist. Again my point is not that this happened but the lack of response to it by Canadians.

I remember reading one report that actually questioned whether this summit was much more expensive that previous ones. If anything, this one was more transparent in its cost analysis than that of other countries, and also included costs normally ignored by other accounting practices for these summits in the past. On that front, we should praise the Canadian government for having been more transparent with the costs than previous governments. That said, yes, a billing is way too much for this kind of thing. But again, one reason for the apparently higher cost is more stringent accounting practices than in the past.

As for police excesses, there will probably be court cases coming soon.

Again, while Canadian and US cultures are similar, they are slightly different in their emphases with regards to the freedom vs obligation spectrum. Whereas the US stands at the extreme end of freedom along the spectrum, Canada stands a little closer to the middle, at least comparatively speaking, placing a little more emphasis on obligations. So while one has the freedom to protest, one also has a obligations that go hand in hand with that freedom, such as respecting the law, not disrupting others, etc.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke.

Protest

That's not to be interpreted though as 'go out and riot'.

 

[AnnaG]

There are plenty of ways to protest responsibly such as starting a letter-writing campaign, a petition, writing to the local newspaper, starting a newsletter, voting, shopping responsibly, etc.

With all of these means of protest, taking to the streets is nothing more than an excuse to riot or at least disturb traffic and daily live in the local area. As far as I'm concerned, if you so much as disrupt traffic, you should be fined for disrupting traffic if nothing else. Protest does not mean disrupting others' lives. That's not called protest, but blackmail (i.e. we'll stop disrupting your lives when you finally do as we say).



Imagine for a moment that people protested every day. Would you not get irate at all the traffic being blocked and the extra time it takes you to get to work every day, not to mention safety owing to paramedics etc. taking longer to get anywhere, etc.?

I realize it was just 3 days, but still it's disrupting the local community's daily life.

Geee. If I knew there'd be a protest between me and where I work, I'd go around it rather than trying to go through it.

There have been several events of the past few months that lead me to believe
Canada's civil liberties are either on a downward spiral or Canadians just don't take these liberties as seriously as Americans. My point is not so much that these events occurred but that they seemed to result in no repercussions. It's as if Canadians just shrug it off. It will be interesting to see what the next 'incident' of this type will be as they seem to be occurring with increased frequency.


Ann Coulter is prevented from speaking.

MPs refuse to have their expense accounts audited

Statistics Canada reports that hate crimes in Canada increase by 33% in one year

Crosses are burned on the lawns of black families in Nova Scotia

Multiple reports of alleged Canadian war crimes in Afghanistan and the government refuses to do a serious investigation.

Canada spends a billion dollars for security for a 4 day meeting that is orders of magnitude more than any other host country has spent.

The police chief of your largest city more or less makes up laws as he needs them, resulting in 5 times as many arrests as occurred during the same meeting in Pittsburgh and 10 times as many as in London.

Bump.

 

[Machjo]

Geee. If I knew there'd be a protest between me and where I work, I'd go around it rather than trying to go through it.

Bump.

My point exactly. It would thus have disrupted your life, no? It might be minor, but it's still a disruption.

If I decided suddenly at rush hour to stand in the middle of the highway chanting 'no more traffic', should I not be fined for disrupting traffic?

 

[AnnaG]

Bear in mind though that with the government knowing these thugs would show up, why the hell did it decide to set up in Toronto of all places? Would CFB Esquimalt or some other Navy base not have been cheaper? With the base bordering water, it would have made it easier to defend its flanks. And since it's a military base already, martial law applies on base, and security is already there.

What was Harper thinking?

He was thinking, "Oh, goody goody. I get to rub elbows with the bigwigs". What else?

Perhaps our cultures are different. Americans place more emphasis on freedom, Canada on obligations, comparatively speaking at least.

... or, "as least I don't care as long as it doesn't affect me".

Ann Coulter is prevented from speaking.

My point exactly. Those protesters should have been charged for disrupting the peace.

Conflicts with freedom of speech arise then. Best just to let people express themselves.

MPs refuse to have their expense accounts audited

And the law will prevail and they will have to show them like it or not.

Or the law won't prevail and nothing changes: a more frequent action concerning politicians considering our "law" being what it is.

Statistics Canada reports that hate crimes in Canada increase by 33% in one year

And if they are caught, they are charged.

.... and given probation.

Crosses are burned on the lawns of black families in Nova Scotia

If they are caught, they will be charged.

..... and given probation.

Multiple reports of alleged Canadian war crimes in Afghanistan and the government refuses to do a serious investigation.

I agree this needs to be investigated, and charges applied as per the law.

Still waiting for investigations.

Canada spends a billion dollars for security for a 4 day meeting that is orders of magnitude more than any other host country has spent.

I agree this was foolish, but what does that have to do with protest? What what the government protesting here?

The gov't was obviously protesting disorder.

The police chief of your largest city more or less makes up laws as he needs them, resulting in 5 times as many arrests as occurred during the same meeting in Pittsburgh and 10 times as many as in London.

I agree the police needs to abide by the law. That said, as far as I'm concerned, disrupting traffic should be a good enough reason to fine someone, and if he refuses to disperse, then charges for disobeying a lawful command.

We're not talking about protest here, but disrupting the normal routine of urban life.

Like I said, it was pretty obvious there'd be protests. I'd go around instead of through.

That's not to be interpreted though as 'go out and riot'.

Um, in case you missed it, most protestors weren't rioting. Those black hood guys and the cops caused it.

My point exactly. It would thus have disrupted your life, no? It might be minor, but it's still a disruption.

I don't and wouldn't care. Variety is the spice of life. Who knows, maybe I'd get partways around it and decide the protestors had a point I felt strong enough about to stop my travels and join the protest.

If I decided suddenly at rush hour to stand in the middle of the highway chanting 'no more traffic', should I not be fined for disrupting traffic?

You'd likely be arrested. Get a neighborhood to protest it because people are speeding and causing accidents and the authorities take notice and usually do things to fix the reason why people protest the traffic. Numbers matter.

 

[Praxius]

does it make sense anymore to protest? knowing full well that these idiots are going to appear and create more violence and destruction and increase the odds ten fold of innocent people getting arrested, (again??)

To me, it's got little to do with the violence and vandalism.... with or without V&V in a protest, protests are about as useful as petitions..... which is that they're not useful at all and nobody in a level of authority gives a damn about them, let alone rarely acts on them and they'll continue to do what they originally intended to do, even if the majority of the population supports the beliefs of those petitioning or protesting.

Example:
B.C. anti-HST petition heads to Victoria
CBC News - British Columbia - B.C. anti-HST petition heads to Victoria

"The signed names on the sheets are from more than 15 per cent of the registered voters in each of the province's 85 ridings, organizers have said. B.C.'s Initiatives Act stipulates that 10 per cent of registered voters are required for a valid petition."

^ Yet do you think it's going to make any difference?

What about all the polls and studies showing the majority of the public felt the G8/20 meetings were a waste of time and money? Harper just countered it all by claiming they're worth it and are needed..... well.... that's that I suppose.

And when there's a protest, all that happens is a bunch of people make 30 seconds on the news as the reports describes police beating the crap out of them, gassing them, property being damaged, police arresting them..... all the while whatever they were protesting continues on its merry way.

People go out with their hippy attitudes thinking that because they're organizing and going to protest with a bunch of people that they're voicing their opinions and things will change.... they don't change, they just clubbed, arrested, fined and sent home to think about what they did, all the while nothing really changed.

Bravo *clap clap*

I'm all for voicing one's opinion and challenging the status quo.... I'm all for opposing things our government tosses on us..... but protests do squat and only gives the government an excuse to send out the boot squad for some exercise..... and unless you wish to take those petitions to a court and legally challenge the government over a subject, you're just wasting your time.

 

[Cliffy]

Yup! Let's ban protest and shut up the dissenting voices. I see the mind police have won. Like I said - Hitler won the war.

 

[Praxius]

There have been several events of the past few months that lead me to believe Canada's civil liberties are either on a downward spiral or Canadians just don't take these liberties as seriously as Americans. My point is not so much that these events occurred but that they seemed to result in no repercussions. It's as if Canadians just shrug it off. It will be interesting to see what the next 'incident' of this type will be as they seem to be occurring with increased frequency.

Pot meet kettle... with all the tea party protests and anger over the various bailouts in the US, did any of your protests actually end up doing anything?

Not to my knowledge and your government ended up doing what it wanted regardless, much like our own..... so what's the diff?

Ann Coulter is prevented from speaking.

No huge loss there.... and that was in only one university, while others in Canada allowed her to speak.

MPs refuse to have their expense accounts audited

I point the finger more at the Bush Jr. Conservatives on that one.... though the Liberal Party isn't much better.

Statistics Canada reports that hate crimes in Canada increase by 33% in one year

If I'm not mistaken, it was 35%, while the US's rose by 7%.... when you compare total populations between both nations:

US - 307,006,550 (2009) - 7% = 21,490,458.5
Canada - 33,311,400 (2008 ) - 35% = 11,658,990

^ I'd say you're in no position to talk.

Crosses are burned on the lawns of black families in Nova Scotia

Ooooo, wow, One isolated incident between family members in a small town..... meanwhile you come from the country that refined cross burnings into a racial art form that still occurs often even today.

3 Arkansas men indicted in cross-burning case
3 Arkansas men indicted in cross-burning - U.S. news - Life - Race & ethnicity - msnbc.com

Louisiana Man sentenced for Civil Rights violation cross-burning
Louisiana Man sentenced for Civil Rights violation cross-burning

^ Once again, pot meet kettle.

Multiple reports of alleged Canadian war crimes in Afghanistan and the government refuses to do a serious investigation.

Once again, Pot meet Kettle.... the incidences involving our nation and troops are in regards to transfer of detainees and one soldier being charged with shooting an already dying Taliban...... all which are isolated in one country, one war..... meanwhile the list continues to get longer and longer for the US, in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere in the World..... all of which your government justifies such actions with one excuse over another. You may call our investigations as "Not Serious" but at least we're investigating.

Canada spends a billion dollars for security for a 4 day meeting that is orders of magnitude more than any other host country has spent.

And when it comes time for the US to hold the meetings, you can bet your country will top our costs even more. Every country who holds the meetings, continually increase the costs and security from the last meeting/country, simply because if the next country spent less then the last, they'd be seen as not taking the situation seriously or possibly jeopardizing the security of the leaders.... so the costs keep getting higher and higher, while the meetings continually remain the same..... Useless.

The police chief of your largest city more or less makes up laws as he needs them, resulting in 5 times as many arrests as occurred during the same meeting in Pittsburgh and 10 times as many as in London.

And the next meeting, wherever it will be held, will end up arresting even more..... your point?

Yup! Let's ban protest and shut up the dissenting voices. I see the mind police have won. Like I said - Hitler won the war.

Yes, of course.... cuz that's what I was saying.

I said they're useless.... when did I say we should ban them?

Let's bring out the Hitler rag dolls on a stick to shake around in the thread for the sake of it :roll:

 

[AnnaG]

And the next meeting, wherever it will be held, will end up arresting even more..... your point?

Funny. I thought Ranch-hand's point wasn't necessarily an attack on Canadians/Canada but more of a critique. And you take it to be an attack and go on the offensive/defensive. lol And sidetrack the topic while you're at it.

 

[Scott Free]

does it make sense anymore to protest? knowing full well that these idiots are going to appear and create more violence and destruction and increase the odds ten fold of innocent people getting arrested, (again??)

Is it worth all the struggle anymore?

The struggle is worth it but protests are a waste of time; especially in Canada where the herd mentality is particularly strong.

Most of the violence at these things is started by the police anyway. They dress up like hooligans and start the riots.

vid

 

[Chiliagon]

was there any proof in that video that they were in fact cops?

 

[bobnoorduyn]

There have been several events of the past few months that lead me to believe
Canada's civil liberties are either on a downward spiral or Canadians just don't take these liberties as seriously as Americans. My point is not so much that these events occurred but that they seemed to result in no repercussions. It's as if Canadians just shrug it off. It will be interesting to see what the next 'incident' of this type will be as they seem to be occurring with increased frequency.

I will not dispute much of this, our civil liberties are in as much of a downward spiral as yours. "Liberals" prefer deference to authority for their protection and give up liberties in exchange. My firearms ensure my freedom as much as yours do, much to the chagrin of "liberals". The disease has infected all countries across the globe, (save Switzerland and Israel). In any case, the riots in Toronto, regardless of the doors left open by government, are inexcusable, (leaving my garage door open at night, though it may not be prudent, does not give someone the right to steal my stuff). Of course there would have been a political price to pay, but there is, in the Criminal Code of Canada Sections 63 - 69, remedies to curtail what had happened. Contained therin is what is referred to as the "Riot Act":


66.Every one who is a member of an unlawful assembly is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.
R.S., c. C-34, s. 67.
Reading proclamation
67.A person who is
(a) a justice, mayor or sheriff, or the lawful deputy of a mayor or sheriff,
(b) a warden or deputy warden of a prison, or
(c) the institutional head of a penitentiary, as those expressions are defined in subsection 2(1) of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, or that person’s deputy,
who receives notice that, at any place within the jurisdiction of the person, twelve or more persons are unlawfully and riotously assembled together shall go to that place and, after approaching as near as is safe, if the person is satisfied that a riot is in progress, shall command silence and thereupon make or cause to be made in a loud voice a proclamation in the following words or to the like effect:
Her Majesty the Queen charges and commands all persons being assembled immediately to disperse and peaceably to depart to their habitations or to their lawful business on the pain of being guilty of an offence for which, on conviction, they may be sentenced to imprisonment for life. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN.

Three things need to happen; twelve or more people need to assemble, they have to act tumultuously, and basicly, glass needs to break. All these things did happen and an authorised person only needed to read this proclamation over a bullhorn. Once you hear "God Save the Queen" you have 30 minutes to get out of the area. Police and persons authorised by police can be empowered to stop the riot by any means deemed necessary including deadly force and cannot be held criminally or civily liable.
Citizens in this country do have the right to arrest people who commit indictable offenses, this includes those who incite or participate in riots. Unfortunately police forces no longer use the public as a resource as freely except when it suits them, nor does the public freely offer its assistance. There is a definite lack of trust which has created an us vs them mentality, a result of the "liberal" deference disease. Police and government are no longer percieved as our employees but our overlords, and many of them act accordingly.
Anyone who will give up liberty for security deserves neither, but I digress.

 

[AnnaG]

was there any proof in that video that they were in fact cops?

Um, shoulder patches and the letters p,o,l,i,c, and e stencilled in big letters on shields would be a little clue.

 

[bobnoorduyn]

Um, shoulder patches and the letters p,o,l,i,c, and e stencilled in big letters on shields would be a little clue.

I think the reference was to the provocoteur, who had no insignia. Was he a cop? who knows; do they act in such ways? I have no doubt. But in any case, if a provocateur does incite a riot, or commit an otherwise indictable act, citizens do have the right to arrest and detain them. Individual police officers acting in such a manner of their own accord shows a definate lack of good judgement, police forces either allowing it or sanctioning it shows a real breakdown in society as we know it. Houston, we have a problem. A really big problem. We have let government, and their forces, become too powerful over us. Sorry, but we did it to ourselves.