Tory G8 abortion stance

[AnnaG]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

I vaguely remember a case (though I can't remember if it was in the US or Canada, but it was some years ago) where one politician had proposed a law whereby if a fetus was aborted owing to the mother being physically assaulted, the perpetrator should be charged with murder.

Not surprisingly, the pro-choice movement vehemently opposed the law, likely because they could see the implications of it.

This though does lead to other questions. On the one hand, if a woman chooses to abort in Canada, that is her legal right at the moment. However, I'm not sure of the position if an abortion is caused by a physical assault on the mother.

This also leads to other questions. Let's say the mother consumes drugs and alcohol, even if it's of the legal kinds of drugs like nicotine though it could also include illegal drugs like opium, etc. Should the law have a right to protect the fetus from the mother by forcing her into rehabilitation, considering the risk he poses for the post-birth life of that child? Or are there cases where you'd propose that the government force the mother to have an abortion?

How much legal protection should a fetus have if any, especially when his post-birth life could be harmed?

Seeing as the legal system doesn't really "protect" anyone, but rather react to someone becoming a victim, charging retribution from a guilty party would still be appropriate. So if some mother knows the consequences of drug abuse, for instance (and I can't think of anyone in Canada who wouldn't know at least some of the consequences), they should be held liable if the child is born with a developing malady or a developed one. There is a variety of methods the legal system draws retribution. The idea is that whatever retribution is it does not impede the mother from doing better and also allows the child to develop into a useful citizen.
Anyway, a viable fetus should be afforded the same rights as is afforded another child.

Because this is a very touchy matter.

Recreational sex is a sin. and thus killing a fetus is a sin. I worry not, there is no pain. But those accused... or not will die for their sins as murders. A man who endures a woman and kills her fetus is to be put to death as if he killed another human being. But as men are not the judges of men he will be die by God's will over ours.

A fetus has no rights, but God love shis life more the that who takes it away.

Have you heard of the man God killed for spilling his sperm before his deceased brothers wife? answers your question in a pretty simple manner.

Oh here we go again. Another SFB-fundamentalist trying to dictate that humans become better humans by becoming non-human.

Recreational sex is the only reason you need t have abortions, lack of diction, DUMB ASS!

Wrong. There are medical reasons, too.

 

[Avro]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

Hey, nice personal insult there pal..... just like a religious anti-abortionist to not be able to answer the most simplest question with a worthwhile answer without getting petty and insulting.

Guess what?

Married people have abortions too..... and they're completely allowed to have recreational sex.

Regardless, recreational sex isn't illegal and so you know, just because this topic is in the "Spirituality & Philosophy" Section, doesn't automatically make you right or that it's completely a Religious issue..... especially since the original post starts off with politics and laws.

Thanks for playing though.



Since you asked, no.... "Murder" is related to Human Beings and Human Rights, which a Fetus doesn't have, thus it'd be similar to something like Animal Cruelty..... perhaps one can charge you for "Assault Leading to Termination of a Planned Pregnancy" (Which I could support such a law) but nothing more.



Exactly..... and thus, that's pretty much where the debate ends. :lol:



What is Moral is Subjective to the Individual.



Oh wow... I'm so hurt.

By the way, how them Canadiens doing in the playoffs Avro?

Oh yeah, that's right..... never mind. :roll:

Oh and by the way, I'm reporting your ass for linking graphical images without warning that are in reference to insulting not only myself, but my family.

I view these forums on my break times at work and do not need to see that **** on my computer here.
I would have hoped that someone with your level of posts and time in here would have grown the hell up by now.

Guess that's asking too much from some people.

Oh and for the record, I don't post graphical war images or somebody's bloody tampon for the same reasons I explained above..... People in these forums are sometimes at work or other places that such graphical images are not permitted.

Use your damn head for once will you?

....and yet you didn't answer the question.:roll:

Is abortion an exceptable form of birth control?

Oh dear...Prax is gonna tell on me....whatever shall I do?:roll:

 

[AnnaG]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

Since this thread is bouncing around like a ping pong ball, I'll try to focus it with a few simple questions:

If I punch a woman in the stomach, there is no doubt that that constitutes assault. But let's say my act kills the baby in her womb. Should that also constitute murder or not?

I think so, assuming the fetus is viable. If it isn't viable, then a charge concerning the needless harm to another living being (after all, if not quite a human being yet, the embryo, fetus, etc. is still living.

If I'm a woman who decides that I want to keep my baby but also want to enjoy alcohol on a regular basis. How ought society deal with that?

If the child's development is inhibited as a result, then some form of action should be applied (assuming the mother knows it is a bad idea to drink excessively while carrying a child).

If I'm a poor mother who can't eat well owing to poverty, what responsibility does society as a whole have to help her maintain the health and wellbeing of the infant in her womb?

This is beyond your control, and we are trying to remedy situations like this (food kitchens, food banks, etc.).

give me two reason you think abortion is appropriate.

Undiagnosed pre-eclampsia, anencephaly, trisomy, Spina Bifida, Tay-Sachs, and there may be more.

So let me understand this. You're saying that the body politic has no right to mete out justice for crimes, that only God can do that? What you'd be proposing then is anarchy unless I missed something

What if the atheists are right and there are no gods? Then we allow some criminals to be unaccountable for their actions and others are accountable. Not good. It creates inequalities we shouldn't have to deal with.

Then you are a victim of your own crimes, Not only will you to inherit everlasting life, You are blind and do not have heaven in your mind, God as your wings and hope in your heart. Not only will the victims be rewarded for their tolerance by the all fair and just lord, The criminal already lost everything.

So you are saying that someone simply enjoying a pleasureful act is just as bad as someone who rapes and kills and nothing is to be done about the rapist/murderer. Interesting. Incredibly foolish, but interesting. So the rapist/murderer is to be allowed to continue causing grief for hundreds maybe thousands of people and not to be held accountable for it on behalf of those people whose lives he/she makes miserable.
You must be a pleasure to be around at family reunions, get-togethers with friends, and parties.

 

[coldstream]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

The only place to start on this discussion is 'when does life begin'. There's no doubt that our society until the last 40 years stated uequivically that it began at conception.

Even in that, society allowed medical abortion limited to situations where the pregnancy endangered the life of the mother, was the result of rape or incest, or in cases where the infant was unviable, and would not survive.

There are no rules now. The fetus is killed by and large because it is inconvenient, causes some psychological distress to the mother, if it is in some way imperfect, if it is not the preferred gender.

But none of this gets around the fact that no other event can divide the infant from what it is at conception, as complete and sovereign in its human potential. There is no artificial threshold of trimestre or sentience or survivability outside the womb that can state this is not 'life'.

Terminating a pregnancy will always be murder, in the eyes of God.

 

[AnnaG]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

The only place to start on this discussion is 'when does life begin'. There's no doubt that in our society until the last 40 years stated uequivically that it began at conception.

Even in that, society allowed medical abortion limited to situations where the pregnancy endangered the life of the mother, was the result of rape or incest, or in cases where the infant was unviable, and would not survive.

There are no rules now. The fetus is killed by and large because it is inconvenient, if it is in some way imperfect, if it is not preferred gender. But none of this gets around the fact that there is no other event can divide the infant from what it is at conception , as complete in its human potential. There is no artificial threshold of trimestre or sentience or survivability outside the womb that can state this is no 'life'.

Agreed.

Terminating a pregnancy will always be murder, in the eyes of God.

Then gods should look after the children born with undiagnosed pre-eclampsia, anencephaly, trisomy, Spina Bifida, Tay-Sachs, etc. and relieve humans of the burden. I can't think of how gods could feed, house, and keep the kids warm, though. If gods demand that humans humans follow up on gods' demandss, gods should be responsible for human failures because they designed us to be failures. It'd only be fair.

 

[captain morgan]

You have to hand it to him though that he is loyal to the Liberal Party. You sure can't call him a traitor on that front. Misplaced loyalty to be sure, but loyalty it is. Ah, party hacks.

Blind faith only goes so far..

Quote: "I vaass oonly followink orders".

Nuremberg circa 1945

 

[coldstream]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

Then gods should look after the children born with undiagnosed pre-eclampsia, anencephaly, trisomy, Spina Bifida, Tay-Sachs, etc. and relieve humans of the burden. I can't think of how gods could feed, house, and keep the kids warm, though. If gods demand that humans humans follow up on gods' demandss, gods should be responsible for human failures because they designed us to be failures. It'd only be fair.

My God never said life would be perfect, or would not contain burdens, in ourselves or in responsibility to others. I see parents who accept the burdens of an imperfect child with courage and grace, as do the individuals afflicted with disabling conditions.

And if you would have to define all this as failure, and the only 'success' in life is to be found in the absense of responsibility, discomfort, hardship.. and in pursuit of some material ideal of perfection.. well good luck.. but it would hardly be fair.

In fact this logic is now being used to diminish the value of life in general to that which poses no infringement on this ideal.. as we see the growth of 'euthenasia' rights to relieve society from undue expense and inconvenience.

Sounds a lot like the Nazi solution to 'useless eaters'.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

God is the ultimate Micro Manager, peering into womens wombs, monitoring every pregnancy in the world just in case a women chooses to abort for whatever reason.

Why do some people assume that God gives a flying f"ck one way or another, I would think he would have more pressing concerns.

 

[Socrates the Greek]

Blind faith only goes so far..

Quote: "I vaass oonly following orders".

Nuremberg circa 1945

Liberal Ideology beats the crap out of Conservative ideology all day long, all year long, in Canada since Confederation. Nothing to do with blind, it has to do with recognizing which devil will take care of the people’s business……

The Conservatives are mixing religion with politics to soften the optics of tyranny inflicted on the Canadian voter, and you can take that to the bank....

 

[AnnaG]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

My God never said life would be perfect, or would not contain burdens, in ourselves or in responsibility to others. I see parents who accept the burdens of an imperfect child with courage and grace, as do the individuals afflicted with disabling conditions.

Funny, I thought the Bible said we were perfect and created in that particular god's image. I guess I was wrong.

And if you would have to define all this as failure, and the only 'success' in life is to be found in the absense of responsibility, discomfort, hardship.. and in pursuit of some material ideal of perfection.. well good luck.. but it would hardly be fair.

An ominscient, omnipotent god should be quite able to know the future and be able to avert any nasties that it had created from interfering with its chosen "children".

In fact this logic is now being used to diminish the value of life in general to that which poses no infringement on this ideal.. as we see the growth of 'euthenasia' rights to relieve society from undue expense and inconvenience.

Sounds a lot like the Nazi solution to 'useless eaters'.

Actually the logic is simply tearing apart the illogic in religions.

God is the ultimate Micro Manager, peering into womens wombs, monitoring every pregnancy in the world just in case a women chooses to abort for whatever reason.

Why do some people assume that God gives a flying f"ck one way or another, I would think he would have more pressing concerns.

You mean gods don't really see or know everything?

 

[DurkaDurka]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

.

You mean gods don't really see or know everything?

I can't imagine they would want to if they even exist. How mundane a gods life would be if he was constantly worrying of the morality of his little stick men down on earth.

I think God would be more of an infrastructure builder, giving us the tools and means to do whatever the f&ck we want. Kinda like a game of the SIMS.

 

[coldstream]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

Funny, I thought the Bible said we were perfect and created in that particular god's image. I guess I was wrong.

You are wrong, Anna. He said only that we were created equal and in His own image. Perfection was something we would have to strive for and achieve on our own, in imitation of Him.. and as we all know, He did not set himself apart or shrink from hardship. ;-)

 

[DurkaDurka]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

You are wrong, Anna. He said only that were created equal and in His own image. Perfection was something we would have to achieve on our own, in imitation of Him.. and as we all know, He did not shrink from hardship. ;-)

How do you know God is a he?

Gender seems kinda useless when you are a God and all. What use would a penis be to God?

 

[Praxius]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

....and yet you didn't answer the question.:roll:

Is abortion an exceptable form of birth control?

First, you didn't ask a question, you just popped into the thread out of nowhere to chuck crap my way without any contribution to the topic at hand.

Secondly, I never once, in this thread or any other thread about this topic, claimed to promote abortion as a means of birth control, nor did I ever suggest I or my wife would opt for abortion for anything other then in a very serious situation that involved the health of my wife or a fetus..... so the answer is no, which you should by now fully know from all the other threads relating to this topic you and I have posted in over the years, so don't even try and play the game of "oh I trolled and now to cover my ass, I'll try and contribute to the thread with an empty-ended question that doesn't even relate to the topic of RIGHTS."

Nice try though.

 

[AnnaG]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

You are wrong, Anna. He said only that we were created equal and in His own image.

So this god wasn't perfect in the first place, just as I thought. Or did you mean the literal definition of "image"? In which case, why am I visible, not bigger than the universe, etc.?

Perfection was something we would have to strive for and achieve on our own, in imitation of Him..

So this god gives us imperfect tools, imperfect knowledge, imperfect wisdom, imperfect bodies, imperfect psychologies, imperfect character, etc. and expects us to figure out how to be perfect with only an imperfect book written by imperfect people with imperfect interpretations as a guide to be read by imperfect people with imperfect interpretations. Yup. That's definitely logical.:roll:

and as we all know, He did not set himself apart or shrink from hardship. ;-)

If a god can be omniscient, then it knows that it is omnipotent and there is nothing it can create that it couldn't overcome with ease.

We are better off relying upon ourselves and ignoring the above mentioned critter. Viable fetuses should have the same rights as any other viable human.

 

[AnnaG]

Liberal Ideology beats the crap out of Conservative ideology all day long, all year long, in Canada since Confederation. Nothing to do with blind, it has to do with recognizing which devil will take care of the people’s business……

An opinion that's hardly based upon fact.

The Conservatives are mixing religion with politics to soften the optics of tyranny inflicted on the Canadian voter, and you can take that to the bank....

And the Gliberals are mixing greed with politics (Shawinigate, Adscam, etc.). So?

 

[Praxius]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

My God never said life would be perfect, or would not contain burdens, in ourselves or in responsibility to others. I see parents who accept the burdens of an imperfect child with courage and grace, as do the individuals afflicted with disabling conditions.

Sounds like a Cop out by God if you ask me.

This God expects all humans to adopt his perfectionist view of how to live their lives or face eternal suffering and hell..... yet backs off when the things he's apparently responsible for are flawed and then says "Well life isn't perfect" and expects us to accept responsibility for those things as well. :-?

And if you would have to define all this as failure, and the only 'success' in life is to be found in the absense of responsibility, discomfort, hardship.. and in pursuit of some material ideal of perfection.. well good luck.. but it would hardly be fair.

Yet at the same time, it's perfectly fair for God to cop out of his own responsibilities of the way we are and the way the world is, which he apparently created, and throw them all on us?

In fact this logic is now being used to diminish the value of life in general to that which poses no infringement on this ideal.. as we see the growth of 'euthenasia' rights to relieve society from undue expense and inconvenience.

Sounds a lot like the Nazi solution to 'useless eaters'.

That's a stretch.... God hasn't played a role in humanity's existence since..... well, forever.... and he expects us to still do his bidding and do things as he sees fit, or face absolute punishment for eternity.

The value of life in humanity's hands now.... not God's.... via laws and rights "HUMANS" created to keep order in a world in which God abandoned long ago.... which the term "Rights" relates to human made laws and rights..... not what some religion or religion's God may or may not want.

If God doesn't like our laws and way of life, perhaps he should speak up and say so, then go through the regular due process as the rest of us.

Or Smite us..... but since that hasn't happened in any reliable human history, I don't think that's a concern.

Humans determine the laws on Rights, Abortions and Euthanasia in our societies, usually based on human compassion and sympathy.... something God obviously knows nothing about.

 

[captain morgan]

Liberal Ideology beats the crap out of Conservative ideology all day long, all year long, in Canada since Confederation. Nothing to do with blind, it has to do with recognizing which devil will take care of the people’s business……

Really?.. Exactly what is the difference?

The Conservatives are mixing religion with politics to soften the optics of tyranny inflicted on the Canadian voter, and you can take that to the bank....

But it's OK for Trudeau and Chretin to be devout Catholics and not forward gay-rights legislation or make the stand on abortion, right?.. Just Harper.

 

[TenPenny]

Well, certainly, when it comes to abortion, the Liberal Party has experience with that. Well, abortion and forged signatures, to be technical.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

Nothing like an abortion thread to bring everyone close. haha.

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