Independence for Quebec

[FiveParadox]

s_lone, the official languages of Canada are both French and English.

Canadians in all provinces, save Québec, are free to be educated in either of our official languages; French immersion schools are everywhere, and offer an exceptional French-language experience. In Québec, on the other hand, not only is it an expectation that everyone be educated exclusively in French, but there are actually rules in place to prevent students from being exposed to English. Québec has, on multiple occasions, invoked s. 33 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to explicitly ignore the language rights of English-speaking Quebeckers.

That is clearly unacceptable.

 

[s_lone]

Can. Charter of Rights & Freedoms says
16. (1) English and French are the official languages of Canada and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and government of Canada.

However In Quebec, a child may be educated in English only if at least one parent or a sibling was educated in Canada in English. So a French kid with both parents being French educated wanting to learn English is SOL. Some equality. :roll:

Languages on signs? A sign containing both French and English must have the French part bigger than the English part? Equality my a$$.

Bills 22, 101, and 178?

And here you touch on the crux of the matter. In Quebec, FRENCH is the official language. There is no equality because there is only ONE official language.

 

[lone wolf]

Nope. What's your point? That you should be served in English wherever you go?

Nice try....

The point is it's close enough ...and I did say it with a s'il vous plais that may have had a tad too much :roll: "Angleek..." in it.

 

[s_lone]

s_lone, the official languages of Canada are both French and English.

Canadians in all provinces, save Québec, are free to be educated in either of our official languages; French immersion schools are everywhere, and offer an exceptional French-language experience. In Québec, on the other hand, not only is it an expectation that everyone be educated exclusively in French, but there are actually rules in place to prevent students from being exposed to English. Québec has, on multiple occasions, invoked s. 33 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to explicitly ignore the language rights of English-speaking Quebeckers.

That is clearly unacceptable.

Unacceptable that Quebecers democratically decide of the laws of their own province? Are you insinuating that Canada has the right to dictate how Quebec should act?

Do you really think Quebecers would give a **** if English would become THE obligatory language in other provinces? What you do in your home is your business. What I do in mine is mine.

The problem here is that you have a profoundly different understanding of what Canada should be compared to me and the majority of Quebecers. We are resistant to a Canada that is too centralized.

And you probably know very well that the English speaking community has the right to be educated in English. If you studied in English school in Quebec in your youth, you can send your kids to English school.

Immigrants are expected to send their children to French school for the obvious reason that a majority of them would choose English. This would be a disaster for Quebec society as it would create an even greater divide between francophones and anglophones.

 

[FiveParadox]

Unacceptable that Quebecers democratically decide of the laws of their own province? Are you insinuating that Canada has the right to dictate how Quebec should act?

I think it’s unacceptable that Quebecers invoked the notwithstanding clause to clobber the language rights of English-speaking Quebecers. That clause is an express declaration that the rights or feedoms of a certain segment of the population are going to be ignored, and that is exactly what the elected representatives of Québec’s people have done, time and time again.

Do you really think Quebecers would give a **** if English would become THE obligatory language in other provinces? What you do in your home is your business. What I do in mine is mine.

The denial of fundamental rights and freedoms is everyone’s business.

The problem here is that you have a profoundly different understanding of what Canada should be than me and most Quebecers.

I have an understanding that Canada should respect the rights and freedoms of Canadians of both languages.

Too bad you don’t share that opinion.

 

[Cliffy]

I can probably agree with you on the aboriginal issue. But this a Canadian issue not exclusive to Quebec.

I think Quebec and BC lead Canada for mistreatment of our aboriginal peoples. As for treatment of the English, like I said, I've been gone for almost 40 years and am subject to the propaganda the west is subject to. My brother in Chateaugey is fluently bilingual and married to a French gal since the 60's so he has no problem. When I went back to Montreal in '86 because my wife left and took my son there, I could not get a job because I was not bilingual. I had to come back to BC because I ran out of money. My son was so upset that he only started talking to me three days ago.

 

[s_lone]

I think it’s unacceptable that Quebecers invoked the notwithstanding clause to clobber the language rights of English-speaking Quebecers. That clause is an express declaration that the rights or feedoms of a certain segment of the population are going to be ignored, and that is exactly what the elected representatives of Québec’s people have done, time and time again.


The denial of fundamental rights and freedoms is everyone’s business.


I have an understanding that Canada should respect the rights and freedoms of Canadians of both languages.

Too bad you don’t share that opinion.

Rights and freedoms come with laws, obligations and responsibilities. You can't get one without the other. Newcomers are expected to learn French so they can smoothly integrate in Quebec society and participate in its evolution. Not so they can be assimilated! Can you imagine how Quebec would be if nearly all the immigrants who came here in the last 30 years didn't learn French? We'd probably already have separated because of the alienation it would have caused.

It's ironic, but the language laws are probably one of the main reasons why separatism failed. It has contributed to give Quebecers confidence in face of the overwhelmingly anglophone Canadian and North American horizon.

No one is being stopped to speak and live in English in Quebec. Have you ever been to Montreal?

I think Quebec and BC lead Canada for mistreatment of our aboriginal peoples. As for treatment of the English, like I said, I've been gone for almost 40 years and am subject to the propaganda the west is subject to. My brother in Chateaugey is fluently bilingual and married to a French gal since the 60's so he has no problem. When I went back to Montreal in '86 because my wife left and took my son there, I could not get a job because I was not bilingual. I had to come back to BC because I ran out of money. My son was so upset that he only started talking to me three days ago.

If you had a business in Montreal and you had a choice between a bilingual worker and a non-bilingual worker, who would you choose? (considering they are both equally competent)

 

[Cliffy]

If you had a business in Montreal and you had a choice between a bilingual worker and a non-bilingual worker, who would you choose? (considering they are both equally competent)

I understand that, but when I left Montreal 14 years earlier, Montreal business was conducted in English and never really had to learn French. I admit that was quite lazy of me. I even had French lovers and didn't bother to learn the language. My bad!;-)

 

[lone wolf]

I understand that, but when I left Montreal 14 years earlier, Montreal business was conducted in English and never really had to learn French. I admit that was quite lazy of me. I even had French lovers and didn't bother to learn the language. My bad!;-)

Not so bad....

If it's the language of love, why do they do it so fast?

 

[s_lone]

I understand that, but when I left Montreal 14 years earlier, Montreal business was conducted in English and never really had to learn French. I admit that was quite lazy of me. I even had French lovers and didn't bother to learn the language. My bad!;-)

I'm sure you at least learned how to french kiss...?

 

[FiveParadox]

That’s certainly an interesting perspective, s_lone — that fundamental rights and freedoms of those resident in Québec are dependent upon a commitment to learn French. You see, I thought that fundamental rights and freedoms were supposed to be... well, fundamental to a society. Apparently not so in Québec!

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms applies for all Canadians*, not just English-speakers or French-speakers (*unless, of course, you’re resident in Québec where certain rights and freedoms may only be guaranteed to French-speaking Canadians, since elected representatives have determined English-speakers to be unworthy of such constitutional protections).

 

[s_lone]

That’s certainly an interesting perspective, s_lone — that fundamental rights and freedoms of those resident in Québec are dependent upon a commitment to learn French. You see, I thought that fundamental rights and freedoms were supposed to be... well, fundamental to a society. Apparently not so in Québec!

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms applies for all Canadians*, not just English-speakers or French-speakers (*unless, of course, you’re resident in Québec where certain rights and freedoms may only be guaranteed to French-speaking Canadians, since elected representatives have determined English-speakers to be unworthy of such constitutional protections).

Perhaps you forgot mentioning that the English speaking community of Quebec can and continues to educate its children in English schools as they are allowed to so if they went to English school themselves.

Perhaps you also forgot to mention that francophones born in Quebec also do not have the right to send their children to an English school. The most privileged here IS the English speaking community.

So let me get this clearly, you think that it's a fundamental right to send your children in English schools? How about arab? Or mandarin? Would you agree to having schools opened in Toronto and Vancouver that educate children in Arab exclusively?

 

[Bar Sinister]

But should that disqualify our us from our own human rights? Regardless of whatever the outcome may be, the Canadian government has an obligation to observe the needs of its citizens.

I am afraid I do not understand your reference. There was nothing in my post about human rights.

 

[AnnaG]

And here you touch on the crux of the matter. In Quebec, FRENCH is the official language. There is no equality because there is only ONE official language.

Yup. But Quebec also considers itself as being apart from Canada rather than a part of it: a somewhat deluded POV. Whether Quebec likes it or not, it is a part of Canada, English and all.

Perhaps you forgot mentioning that the English speaking community of Quebec can and continues to educate its children in English schools as they are allowed to so if they went to English school themselves.

Perhaps you also forgot to mention that francophones born in Quebec also do not have the right to send their children to an English school. The most privileged here IS the English speaking community.

Yeah. That's weird. It's as if Quebec lawmakers know that English won't disappear, but they are phobic about French disappearing. Irrational to the max. I can't see French disappearing at all.

So let me get this clearly, you think that it's a fundamental right to send your children in English schools? How about arab? Or mandarin? Would you agree to having schools opened in Toronto and Vancouver that educate children in Arab exclusively?

Hindi and Mandarin would be more appropriate. But, I see nothing wrong with having schools teaching in different languages; or some English kid wanting to learn in French or Greek, or a Chinese kid wanting to learn in French or whatever.
English speakers not being able to put up English signs in front of their stores in a BIlingual country is somewhat inane, though. There's nothing stopping the Chinese from having strictly Chinese signs in front of their stores in Vancouver. I haven't even heard of anyone grumbling about it.
IMO, people should be able to do whatever they want in whatever language they want. IOW, people see Quebeckers as wanting to be more equal than anyone else. It's the old sandbox thing of "this is my toy and you can't play with it even though I am not using it. But I can play with your toy."

 

[s_lone]

Yup. But Quebec also considers itself as being apart from Canada rather than a part of it: a somewhat deluded POV. Whether Quebec likes it or not, it is a part of Canada, English and all.

Of course, Quebec is a part Canada. Why would that stop Quebec from doing what it judges best for itself? And if, according to the ROC, Quebec is violating rights, why are you ''rest of Canadians'' not doing anything about it? Why won't the federal government come and arrest our provincial politicians if they are so outraged?

Here's my answer. The ROC can't and won't do anything about it because there is nothing to do about it. You don't have a case. Those who live in Quebec accept to live by its laws. Those who don't simply leave. Good for them for taking control over their lives. But those that stay and and those that continue to arrive here accept the reality of Quebec and its laws.

Yeah. That's weird. It's as if Quebec lawmakers know that English won't disappear, but they are phobic about French disappearing. Irrational to the max. I can't see French disappearing at all.

But languages do disappear. Most aboriginal languages are in great danger of disappearing. French in Quebec is not because we took some measures to protect it, and we want it to stay that way. We can't be complacent about it. Some minimal measures need to be taken. If immigrants in Quebec don't learn French, it's a simple mathematical fact that francophones will be more and more alienated and there would be a huge social divide in our province.

Hindi and Mandarin would be more appropriate. But, I see nothing wrong with having schools teaching in different languages; or some English kid wanting to learn in French or Greek, or a Chinese kid wanting to learn in French or whatever.

Well I see a problem with that. And I'd see one if I lived in BC too. I would expect newcomers to be able to learn English in order for them to integrate in the cultural and social landscape. If you don't expect this, you open the door to too much ''ghettoization''. Multiculturalism is all nice and cheery, but it needs to be rooted in something that can create some form of cohesion.

English speakers not being able to put up English signs in front of their stores in a BIlingual country is somewhat inane, though. There's nothing stopping the Chinese from having strictly Chinese signs in front of their stores in Vancouver. I haven't even heard of anyone grumbling about it.
IMO, people should be able to do whatever they want in whatever language they want. IOW, people see Quebeckers as wanting to be more equal than anyone else. It's the old sandbox thing of "this is my toy and you can't play with it even though I am not using it. But I can play with your toy."

People in Vancouver don't complain because English is in no foreseeable danger of disappearing. If suddenly all of North America spoke Mandarin except BC who spoke English, I'm sure most of you would start thinking otherwise.

Quebecers don't want to be more equal than anybody else. They just want everybody else to mind their own business. You folks in BC can have all the laws you want or don't want. The fact that we live in the same federation doesn't give you the right to dictate our ways. If our ways are fundamentally contrary to the philosophy of Canada then you should kick us out right now. You don't of course, because you don't have a case.

 

[JLM]

If we all quit paying attention to the Baby's whining it would probably stop. :lol::lol:

 

[s_lone]

If we all quit paying attention to the Baby's whining it would probably stop. :lol::lol:

Funny... All the whining in this thread seems to come from non Quebecers whining about Quebec.

 

[Machjo]

s_lone, the official languages of Canada are both French and English.

Canadians in all provinces, save Québec, are free to be educated in either of our official languages; French immersion schools are everywhere, and offer an exceptional French-language experience. In Québec, on the other hand, not only is it an expectation that everyone be educated exclusively in French, but there are actually rules in place to prevent students from being exposed to English. Québec has, on multiple occasions, invoked s. 33 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to explicitly ignore the language rights of English-speaking Quebeckers.

That is clearly unacceptable.

though I don't agree with all of Bill 101, to be fair to Quebec, we need to take into account the relative global importance of the two languages. Taking that into account, naturally given a choice in a bilingual city like Montreal, the vast majority of immigrant parents and even some pure laine parent would send their child to an English-medium school, which would in turn strengthen English globally.

Then we get into the question of legal equality vs. real equality. Essentially, Quebec is trying to achieve real equality by counterbalancing the global free market strength of English with pro-francophone legislation in Quebec. It's not just a legal and constitutional issue as you seem to believe, but a wider social issue.

Again, I'm not saying I agree with Bill 101, but the current Official Languages Act is no better in its absolute failure to recognize the international dimension of language policy, pretending that somehow the global status of languages within Canada, be they French, English, or any of the First Nations and Inuit languages, has no impact on the language within Canada's borders. We cannot legislate this equality any more than we can legislate the sun to rise at a certain time of the day. Though it occurs beyond Canada's borders, the impact within Canada is very real.

Essentially, if the conflict is between legal equality and real equality (i.e. if they have legal equality, then the dominant global language has real superiority and will engage in 'glottophagie' as we say in French; and if we intend to achieve real equality then the weaker language must have legal precedent, though in that case the First Nations and Inuit languages ought to get priority over even French), then the only solution I could see would be through the adoption of an official national auxiliary language (i.e. a common second-language to all).

That would be a radical step, though by no means unique in the world. Indonesia is one country that has adopted such a policy, whereby Bahasa Indonesia is essentially a planned language based on all the country's languages, designed to be easy to learn, spoken by few as a mother tongue yet by nearly all as a common second language.

This would be the only way that I could see to solve the conflict between legal and real equality, as it would essentially introduce a 'buffer language' between the greater and lesser languages, thus putting them on a real equal footing while ensuring legal equality too.

Any other solution is bound to pit the notions of 'legal equality' and 'real equality' against each other, thus never solving the problem as clearly the speakers of the lesser languages will never accept legal equality since that would amount to linguistic suicide over time.

I'd be curious, 5P: How would you propose reconciling legal equality and real equality between Canada's languages?

Also, 5P, if you're interested in sociolinguistic issues beyond the legal aspects only, I'd recommend the Rapport Grin, presented to the French Government in 2005, which goes well beyond the legal aspects of interlinguistic relations and looks at the economic, social, political, and other aspects too. Though its primary focus is on the EU, it is still far ahead of anything I've read dealing with the Canadian context.

And 5P, if you cannot read French, then you could also read English-Only Europe: Challenging Language Policy, by Robert Phillipson:

English-Only Europe?: Challenging Language Policy: Amazon.ca: Robe Phillipson: Books

Again, it deals mainly with the European context, but it does go into some detail with regards to the issue of legal vs. real equality and how they must be reconciled if we are to move forward with any policy all can accept. Just to clarify, I do not agree with everything he says in that book, but he still gives ideas to think about none the less, and he doesn't limit himself to the question of legal equality only. Unlike the OLA, he does acknowledge the reality that without real equality, legal equality will never be accepted by the speakers of weaker languages.

s_lone, the official languages of Canada are both French and English.

Canadians in all provinces, save Québec, are free to be educated in either of our official languages; French immersion schools are everywhere, and offer an exceptional French-language experience.

This is false. Yes we are free to send our children to school in French outside of Quebec, but it's not always convenient. I know this for a fact since I had gone to a French-medium school in Victoria, BC. Since it was the only French-medim school in town, those of us who lived farther away had to accept either a long daily commute which English-medium students did not have to endure, or switch to a nearby English-medium school.

So, no, such schools are not 'everywhere'.

And if this was the case in a provincial capital, you can imagine it would be even less convenient in a smaller town.

 

[wulfie68]

FiveParadox stated "s_lone, the official languages of Canada are both French and English.

Canadians in all provinces, save Québec, are free to be educated in either of our official languages; French immersion schools are everywhere, and offer an exceptional French-language experience."

This is false. Yes we are free to send our children to school in French outside of Quebec, but it's not always convenient. I know this for a fact since I had gone to a French-medium school in Victoria, BC. Since it was the only French-medim school in town, those of us who lived farther away had to accept either a long daily commute which English-medium students did not have to endure, or switch to a nearby English-medium school.

So, no, such schools are not 'everywhere'.

And if this was the case in a provincial capital, you can imagine it would be even less convenient in a smaller town.

Actually its NOT false. The schools are found wherever there is a demand for them. There are no legal impediments to say that everyone could not enroll their children in them, if they so choose. There are some practical limitations, such as the number of available francophone teachers and the small demand for French in rural areas outside Quebec. In the end, if someone wants to send their children to French immersion school, they can without hindrance from the law. Conversely Quebec does not legally allow someone to send their children (including English speaking immigrants) to an English school unless they meet some specific criteria.

s_lone can deride English Canada all he/she/it wants for not "challenging" Quebec on the language issue but the reality is that Quebec is already acting counter to the rulings of the Supreme Court of Canada (and has repeatedly) with their unconstitutional language laws by using the Not Withstanding clause. English Canada is therefore left with the option of re-opening the constitution and ammending it so the Not Withstanding clause is removed (which will never happen because the other provinces won't forfeit the protection that it gives them on other issues). The other option would be to remove official bilingualism and make the country English only: francophone Quebecers may not like it but since they don't care for anyone else's rights, why should anyone else care about theirs?

 

[YukonJack]

I think I said this before:

If Quebec wants to go their own way, God bless them, as long as still will export their greatest achivement to the rest of Canada: "LA FIN DU MOND" beer brewed by Unibroue.