Tory G8 abortion stance

YukonJack

Time Out
Dec 26, 2008
7,026
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Winnipeg
L Gilbert attempted to refute my contention that if men's prostate examination is not funded by Canadian health care neither should be abortion, by saying:

"All men have prostates. Not all women who get pregnant want abortions."

True, but all women have breasts and Mammogramms are fully funded. Not to mention the fact that while - indeed - women can not have prostate cancer, men, rarely have been known to have breast cancer.

So, perhaps my comparison of covering costs between PSA test and abortion was not right on, I need to be convinced that if mammograms are fully covered PSA test should not be.
 

YukonJack

Time Out
Dec 26, 2008
7,026
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Winnipeg
SirJosephPorter left us wondering how he feels about our(AND HIS) duly elected Prime Minister:

"I don't think a day will ever arrive when I will be proud of Harper, Tenpenny."

Well some of us have trouble being proud at the attitude that personal convenience trumps the life of a living breathing human being in the womb.

Any nation where abortion is not only legal, but fully funded, any time, any number of times, is a nation with suicidal wishes, and deservedly so.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,609
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Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll - CTV News

OTTAWA — Stephen Harper's much-vaunted maternal health initiative that was meant to galvanize next month's G8 summit is now causing some queasiness -- among Canadians and internationally.

A new poll suggests that a majority of Canadians opposes the Prime Minister's refusal to fund safer abortions in developing countries, even as international concern grows about the state of his G8 maternal health initiative.

The Canadian Press-Harris Decima poll found that 58 per cent of respondents oppose Harper's exclusion of abortion funding in his drive to improve maternal and child health in poor countries.

That's up from about 46 per cent in March, when a similar question about aid for abortion access was asked. The increase suggests people are taking their time to think through the complex pros and cons before making up their minds, said Megan Tam, vice-president at Harris-Decima.

"It appears that the general sentiment of most Canadians is to have a maternal health policy that includes funding for abortion," she said.

The poll of 1000 people was conducted by telephone between May 6 and May 9. It has a margin of error of 3.1 per cent, 19 times out of 20.

The survey found that opposition to the government's stand was about the same for both men and women, but was stronger in Atlantic Canada and British Columbia than other regions of the country.

Only 30 per cent of respondents said they would support the government's decision, down from about 48 per cent in March.........

......... More than 350,000 women die every year because of childbirth and pregnancy problems, and 99 per cent of those deaths are in developing countries. And when mothers in developing countries die, their children suffer exponentially.

The best way to bring down maternal mortality is to give women the wherewithal to make choices about when they want to have children, and how many, Schweitzer said.
That means donor money should be targeted at contraception, reproductive health services and education of girls, he added.

Experts agree that billions of dollars in aid are necessary in order to meet a widely accepted United Nations target to significantly reduce maternal mortality rates by 2015.

Hopes for the G8 initiative led by Canada range from $4 billion to about $15 billion over the next five years.

Well sounds like Harper made a bad call on this one and the poll does seem pretty accurate based on which regions support the funding over others....

Politicians really need to start listening to the public more, and listen to their own religious dogma less..... they're not there to promote their own personal religious views in our politics, they're supposed to promote what society as a whole approves or doesn't.
 

Liberalman

Senate Member
Mar 18, 2007
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Re: Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

The poll of 1000 people was conducted by telephone between May 6 and May 9. It has a margin of error of 3.1 per cent, 19 times out of 20.

5000 people is a minimum from any survey company.

Can someone tell me what it means 19 times out of 20.

Usually I don't agree with our Conservative Prime Minister on most issues but this one he has my full support.

Abortion does not improve the quality of life for mother and child and tax payers should not be paying for abortions in other nations.
 
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petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Re: Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

Can someone tell me what it means 19 times out of 20.
That woud be the asshole who thinks he's a genius by giving useless answers because somebody phoned while he was nuking his beefaroni.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
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Re: Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

Usually I don't agree with our Conservative Prime Minister on most issues but this one he has my full support.

It's a double standard, where it's supported in our own country and laws, yet based on Harper's personal/religious beliefs, he thinks he has the right to change our country's principles to his own principles, regardless of what the majority of the population believes or what our own laws state..... and additional details in the above report show that what he and his group did was open up the abortion and women's rights debate all over again, as noted of all the private members bills being tossed in these days to open it back up, along with all these pointless protests.

Harper and crew claim they don't want to open up the debate again, yet by doing what he did, he already opened it up.

Abortion does not improve the quality of life for mother and child and tax payers should not be paying for abortions in other nations.
It can and does improve the quality of life for the mother, and in regards to the child, there is no child in question, thus its quality of life is irrelevant.

from the above report alone:
"More than 350,000 women die every year because of childbirth and pregnancy problems, and 99 per cent of those deaths are in developing countries. And when mothers in developing countries die, their children suffer exponentially.

The best way to bring down maternal mortality is to give women the wherewithal to make choices about when they want to have children, and how many, Schweitzer said.
That means donor money should be targeted at contraception, reproductive health services and education of girls, he added."


^ Which means if a woman dies from child birth, whom already have children, then those existing children will suffer greatly.

The majority of those deaths of women are in developing nations where available hospital time, doctors, hygienic environments, etc. do not exist or are greatly limited in their abilities.

And hypothetically if a fetus gets to full term and the mother dies while giving birth, then once again, that new born child is now an orphan in an already poverty stricken land and its own survival is in jeopardy.... meanwhile nothing was done to save the mother.... thus rather then trying to save the life and well-being of one human, that one human is punished/forced to carry a fetus full term, risks death, risks the life of the baby during birth, and even the baby risks death shortly after birth on top of the whole process if it does survive birth.... thus at the very least, two people will suffer and/or die in the process because of abortion not being funded, not including any other children in that woman's family who now became orphans.

All because of some people's hangups on abortion and their religious moral values.

The whole simplistic argument of "Well they shouldn't have sex, it's their own fault" is baseless and ignorant on their situation, since most in these poverty-stricken areas don't have the best education, best medical facilities/coverage, a decent income and have already, plenty going against them in their lives compared to people in our own country who are better off then they are, better educated, yet still are covered by law for the same things these people are denied in having...... and yet some here seem to think that they simply should know better then us or should be in far more of a healthier state then the average Canadian citizen to deny them funding/coverage for the same things many here take for granted.

Then again, perhaps this is the Conservative way of punishing them where they can't punish our own citizens for what our laws already cover..... all so they can sleep better at night knowing they did "God's will" :roll:
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Re: Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

It's a double standard, ...

Then again, perhaps this is the Conservative way of punishing them where they can't punish our own citizens for what our laws already cover..... all so they can sleep better at night knowing they did "God's will" :roll:
But it is god's will that women die and suffer because of Eve's little booboo in the garden.

I think what really happened was that she found god's stash of porn and he never got over the embarrassment.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Re: Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

Praxius, if an area can't get a woman through childbirth without killing her, what do you think an abortion will be like for her? Bad health care isn't really a very valid argument for the necessity of surgical procedures, imo.
 

GreenFish66

House Member
Apr 16, 2008
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Re: Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

"Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan" - Really ?...I somehow doubt that..

Harper has taken the right position on this one.. right to leave out abortion issue at a G8 ...They never seem to be able to agree on anything at G8's anyway ...OR G20's ...What are the G summits for? ..Have leaders ever agreed on anything at a G meeting?...Maybe they should start with an easier issue than abortion like ..World peace and 1st World freedom and democracy (;) ..That's the only sure way to control the population (Peacefully)...(2.5 kids in developed nations)
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Re: Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

But it is god's will that women die and suffer because of Eve's little booboo in the garden.

When I look at the people I know, and how they view abortion, probably the most vehemently opposed are not the Christians I know, but rather, those in my family who are First Nations. Growing up, keeping track of the family lineage of some of my relatives was a challenge, because their family had the more traditional, matriarchal view of accidental pregnancy. "You're not ready for a baby? Well, let's see who in the family is." Of course... religion must be drug into every conversation, so the only reason anyone could be opposed to abortion must be religion based.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
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Re: Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

Praxius, if an area can't get a woman through childbirth without killing her, what do you think an abortion will be like for her? Bad health care isn't really a very valid argument for the necessity of surgical procedures, imo.

Well the funding plan is to improve on those health cares, but what's the sense when it doesn't cover all the important areas of funding and these women still face the possibility of having to resort to some alley doctor to perform abortions because there isn't any funding or promotion for hospitals to perform said operations in a safe environment?

Or what about existing health issues with said woman who even with all the funding available to improve the situation in the hospitals, still can not carry the child to full term without serious risk or even death, thus abortion is still one of the only few options available?

One of the arguments even in our own country towards funding abortions is that is reduces the amount of women who have to go out and seek alternative and unsafe abortion procedures (even some taking matters into their own hands) ~ I just don't see the logic where it's perfectly fine and funded in our own nation and laws, yet because it's a different country, a developing country, our own principles and values do not equate, like a "Do as we say, not as we do" scenario.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Re: Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

Well the funding plan is to improve on those health cares, but what's the sense when it doesn't cover all the important areas of funding and these women still face the possibility of having to resort to some alley doctor to perform abortions because there isn't any funding or promotion for hospitals to perform said operations in a safe environment?

Or what about existing health issues with said woman who even with all the funding available to improve the situation in the hospitals, still can not carry the child to full term without serious risk or even death, thus abortion is still one of the only few options available?

One of the arguments even in our own country towards funding abortions is that is reduces the amount of women who have to go out and seek alternative and unsafe abortion procedures (even some taking matters into their own hands) ~ I just don't see the logic where it's perfectly fine and funded in our own nation and laws, yet because it's a different country, a developing country, our own principles and values do not equate, like a "Do as we say, not as we do" scenario.

There's nothing saying that they can't provide abortions Prax.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
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Re: Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

When I look at the people I know, and how they view abortion, probably the most vehemently opposed are not the Christians I know, but rather, those in my family who are First Nations. Growing up, keeping track of the family lineage of some of my relatives was a challenge, because their family had the more traditional, matriarchal view of accidental pregnancy. "You're not ready for a baby? Well, let's see who in the family is." Of course... religion must be drug into every conversation, so the only reason anyone could be opposed to abortion must be religion based.
I am aware of the aboriginal view on abortion. But it the religious who are the loudest and most violent of the opponents. I have seen priests out on the streets inciting protesters with loud speakers, leading the charge on abortion clinics. It may be a few lunatics that actually attack, bomb or kill but it is ministers and priests that incite them. Sometimes it doesn't take much to push a loony across that line.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
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Re: Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

When I look at the people I know, and how they view abortion, probably the most vehemently opposed are not the Christians I know, but rather, those in my family who are First Nations. Growing up, keeping track of the family lineage of some of my relatives was a challenge, because their family had the more traditional, matriarchal view of accidental pregnancy. "You're not ready for a baby? Well, let's see who in the family is." Of course... religion must be drug into every conversation, so the only reason anyone could be opposed to abortion must be religion based.

The real issue isn't about those who oppose it for whatever beliefs or reasons they have, it's those who wish it to remain as an option in their lives in the future, or wish to use it now for whatever reason they wish..... as the decision matters to them.

For those who don't like abortion, be that for religious or other reasons, nobody is forcing them to have abortions or even consider it as an option, but they also don't have the right to remove that option from others based on their own personal reasons of never wanting to use that option in their lives..... first nations, religious or not.

Simply by removing the option of abortion, you are automatically forcing your views on others and forcing them to either abide by your own subjective morals, or risk having to seek out less safe forms of the procedure, which in the end can cause further strain on a health system later on due to complications.

Just because I personally wouldn't opt for an abortion of any future child that may or may not come into my and my wife's life, doesn't mean I agree that option shouldn't be available for others for their own reasons..... my life and my wife's life isn't everybody else's life.

In regards to the above report, Harper's own views are in question, which most know is religious-based, that's why religion was dragged into this. Regardless, what I continually see as a trend is that those who oppose abortions as a whole and support the removal of it being covered in our own health plans, AND don't support having any type of funding for this procedure in the above concept.... are all based on their own values, morals and personal opinions on the subject, be that religious or not.

My reasons for supporting the availability of abortions may also be attributed to my own set morals and personal values...... but the core of my beliefs are based on the fact that every single one of us should have the right to decide what happens in our own lives and bodies based on our own morals and values..... none of us have the right to tell another person what to do with their own lives and their own body based on our own morals and values, thus ignoring their own.

To say that it's not just their own life being in question, that again falls under each person's own subjective views and should be left up to the individual to decide if that argument is valid or not.

Someone can have an abortion for what I see as very lame and stupid reasons, and it happens from time to time..... but it's not my right to tell them they're wrong or right...... because how do I even know my view is right compared to their own views and their own life? How do you know your views are right for someone else? Sure they're right for you, but do you think you have the legit authority to over rule someone else's views and force them to think the way you do?

We all have to live with the decisions we make, good and bad..... but to force someone to live with the decisions made on their behalf by someone else? Just doesn't seem right to me.
 
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Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
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Re: Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

There's nothing saying that they can't provide abortions Prax.

Yet that aspect of what said country may or may not provide towards abortions won't get any equal level of funding as opposed to all the other "Family" planning stuff they plan to fund.... so while they may provide some level of abortion treatment, the chances of the practices, equipment and procedures improving in that area will be nill compared to everything else...... so while a developing country that provides abortions will improve in this area or that area in its various treatments, if their abortion procedures are crap and full of risk, they will remain that way.

Which means, chances are some areas will get great improvements and funding on getting people well.... but if that same hospital is still using coat hangers or pushing people down stairs for their abortion treatments, they're not going to get much better. (Bit of an extreme example of methods, but the point remains.)

Meanwhile, those countries that do not provide medically approved abortions in anyway (I suppose that's their sovereign right) will have no improvement towards health of those who risk their lives in giving birth, infant mortality rates of high risk births, or those who go somewhere to get an abortion done by some back-alley doctor, thus a drain on their economic system due to additional medical expenses that will arise from those people.
 

Slim Chance

Electoral Member
Nov 26, 2009
475
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Re: Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

It's a double standard, where it's supported in our own country and laws


There's nothing stopping you and those of a like mind from cracking open your wallet and sending the cash to whatever body will set up the clinics.


yet based on Harper's personal/religious beliefs, he thinks he has the right to change our country's principles to his own principles

The countries principles? Since when did providing surgical procedures overseas in foreign nations become a core Canadian principle?.. On that note, how does your personal/religious beliefs somehow trump the other 1/2 of Canadians?
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Re: Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

.... but if that same hospital is still using coat hangers or pushing people down stairs for their abortion treatments, they're not going to get much better. (Bit of an extreme example of methods, but the point remains.)

But, don't you see Prax.... if you improve the state of that hospital, the cleanliness, the education of its physicians, the rest follows anyway. An abortion is not a complicated procedure. It doesn't require state of the art implements. It's pretty basic. And, the number you're using as an argument for the necessity of abortions, the number of women dying in child birth, drops drastically, making it safer for them to carry pregnancies through.

Meanwhile, those countries that do not provide medically approved abortions in anyway (I suppose that's their sovereign right) will have no improvement towards health of those who risk their lives in giving birth....

What?
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Re: Majority objects to leaving out abortion in G8 plan: poll

5000 people is a minimum from any survey company.

Can someone tell me what it means 19 times out of 20.

5000 is not the minimum...the sample size determines the margin of error. For a country the size (population wise of course) of Canada, 1000 people is pretty standard.

The 19 out of 20 refers to the margin of error. The margin of error in this poll is pretty standard, it's the mean reported (58% in this case) +/- 3.1 %, 19 times out of 20. That means if you re-sampled with the same conditions, from another 1000 Canadians, that the population value you would find who oppose Harper's maternal health plan would be between 58-3.1=54.9 and 58 +3.1=61.1, 95% (19/20= 95%) of the time.

We would reasonably expect 19 more exact replicate polls to have only one result that is outside the 54.9-61.1 range of disaproval for Harper's plan.