Obamacare Passes!!!
- Thread starter SirJosephPorter
- Start date
What you are giving here is the definition from logic, Ron. And there is nothing wrong with the definition, as far as it goes. However, when somebody has a known bias, then one is entitled to question if the argument he is making are made simply to advance his agenda, rather than from an objective viewpoint.
Thus, when tobacco company executives made the argument that tobacco is not harmful to human health, most people dismissed their argument out of hand. Or when slave owners made argument in favor of slavery, conservatives made argument against giving women the vote, such arguments were also dismissed out of hand.
Besides some of the arguments cannot be resolved anyway. Thus, slavery supporters claimed that most blacks were happy as slaves. Now, how is one going to ascertain the truth of the argument? Are you going to ask slaves themselves? Are they going to tell the truth if they have been threatened by their master with a beating?
Thus, when tobacco company executives made the argument that tobacco is not harmful to human health, most people dismissed their argument out of hand. Or when slave owners made argument in favor of slavery, conservatives made argument against giving women the vote, such arguments were also dismissed out of hand.
Besides some of the arguments cannot be resolved anyway. Thus, slavery supporters claimed that most blacks were happy as slaves. Now, how is one going to ascertain the truth of the argument? Are you going to ask slaves themselves? Are they going to tell the truth if they have been threatened by their master with a beating?
So let us consider the example given in your link:
Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong."
Dave: "Of course you would say that, you're a priest."
Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"
Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say
I would modify Dave’s argument slightly. I would say to Bill, look you are obviously biased in the subject. We really don’t know if the argument you make is real or you are just parroting what the Pope told you. Show me the scientific evidence, objective evidence to what you are saying and I will consider it. But as to your unsupported word, it is simply Fundamentalist Catholic propaganda, philosophy, nothing more.
Now Dave, if you give some objective evidence. How many women die during an abortion, how many women commit suicide as a result of getting an abortion, we will discuss it; see if there is anything to it. But abortion is morally wrong? That is pure Catholic propaganda, nothing more, and worth very little.
Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong."
Dave: "Of course you would say that, you're a priest."
Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"
Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say
I would modify Dave’s argument slightly. I would say to Bill, look you are obviously biased in the subject. We really don’t know if the argument you make is real or you are just parroting what the Pope told you. Show me the scientific evidence, objective evidence to what you are saying and I will consider it. But as to your unsupported word, it is simply Fundamentalist Catholic propaganda, philosophy, nothing more.
Now Dave, if you give some objective evidence. How many women die during an abortion, how many women commit suicide as a result of getting an abortion, we will discuss it; see if there is anything to it. But abortion is morally wrong? That is pure Catholic propaganda, nothing more, and worth very little.
So an abortion cannot be used as a form of birth control in the Obama plan. There are many other methods that can be used. In other words the plan will not pay for elective abortions. If you want a abortion, you will always be able to get a secondary medical plan that covers it if you want. No one is taking the right of abortion away.
He deserves credit for that (I know, some will be calling him a "right wingnut") I find the term "right of abortion" a little disturbing, with that right another "right" is denied.
I think you hit the nail right on...
If any post, link, reference, etc doesn't conform to his liberal (socialist)ideology It's a right wing, gun totting, bible belt conspiracy involving possibly reich wing ideologists, which include Joan of arc and her acolytes or anybody in the Conservative or the Republican party.Then he promptly goes on a tangent to obfuscate the discussion...
If anyone had as many post blaming Islam as he has blaming or nitpicking Christianity we would be investigated by the CHRC :roll:
Re # 219.
SirJosephPorter, I know fully well that there is absolutely no use presenting facts to you. With your liberal tin foil hat on your miniscule brain is incapabe of receiving any message that does not come from CNN, New York Times, CBC, MSNBC or any of the other far left liberal spreaders of hate and misinformation.
Please quote me or anyone who disagrees with you who EVER used the words you often use, yourself: Spawn of the Devil applied to liberals or just to give you more rope to hang yourself with, any other context.
There is a saying that some people never learn. You are the prime example of that. You keep using the expession tea baggers to describe normal, hard-working Americans who have no wish to be part of a second Soviet Union, so favoured by Obama and his soul-mates, Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro. Forgetting all the while that the REAL tea baggers are you favourite people, the scrotum-sucking homosexuals.
Final question. Since you seem to be so wise in financial matters (heaven knows, you bragged about your riches time after time) if you owned/run a health insurance company, would you commit financial suicede by giving coverage to anyone with pre-existing conditions? Would you cover anyone who would by insurance from you ONLY after they discovered that they were sick?
If any party advocated your demise, would you still vote for it?
SirJosephPorter, I know fully well that there is absolutely no use presenting facts to you. With your liberal tin foil hat on your miniscule brain is incapabe of receiving any message that does not come from CNN, New York Times, CBC, MSNBC or any of the other far left liberal spreaders of hate and misinformation.
Please quote me or anyone who disagrees with you who EVER used the words you often use, yourself: Spawn of the Devil applied to liberals or just to give you more rope to hang yourself with, any other context.
There is a saying that some people never learn. You are the prime example of that. You keep using the expession tea baggers to describe normal, hard-working Americans who have no wish to be part of a second Soviet Union, so favoured by Obama and his soul-mates, Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro. Forgetting all the while that the REAL tea baggers are you favourite people, the scrotum-sucking homosexuals.
Final question. Since you seem to be so wise in financial matters (heaven knows, you bragged about your riches time after time) if you owned/run a health insurance company, would you commit financial suicede by giving coverage to anyone with pre-existing conditions? Would you cover anyone who would by insurance from you ONLY after they discovered that they were sick?
If any party advocated your demise, would you still vote for it?
Exactly. Debating sensible people is one thing, but arguing with people who intellect is comprised of a half dozen over used and un appropriate catch words and phrases is utter futility, not to mention that his main objective is to p*ss you off and REPORT you.
I have criticized Islam soundly and roundly many times in these forums. To me, Christianity and Islam are two sides of the same coin, one is as bad as the other. If anything, I have been even more scathing in my criticism of Islam. And CHRC has better things to do than to investigate somebody, just because he criticized Islam.
That is known in technical jargon as exaggeration. It is an accepted and effective way of getting one's point across.
I have already explained this, [ am not going to keep on covering the same ground again.
As a business, I would see if I can give coverage to those with preexisting conditions, or to somebody who applies for coverage after he has been sick. If I see that I cannot make a profit by doing that, I won’t do it. If government mandates that I must do it, I will get out of medical insurance business. That is only common sense. An insurance company is in business to make profit, it is not a charity.
However, if you have been following medical insurance company stocks, they have actually gone up since the health care reform was passed. So nobody is expecting the law to hurt insurance companies.
"I have already explained this, file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Owner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-32.jpgI am not going to keep on covering the same ground again.file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Owner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-31.jpg"
SirJosephPorter, thank you for your most coherent, EVER, post.
SirJosephPorter, thank you for your most coherent, EVER, post.
The Patient Protection and Affordable Healthcare Act, more commonly referred to as the "healthcare bill", has taken over a year to craft and has been a lightning rod for political debate because it effectively reshapes major facets of the country's healthcare industry.
Here are 10 things you need to know about how the new law may affect you:
1. Your Kids are Covered
Starting this year, if you have an adult child who cannot get health insurance from his or her employer and is to some degree dependent on you financially, your child can stay on your insurance policy until he or she is 26 years old. Currently, many insurance companies do not allow adult children to remain on their parents' plan once they reach 19 or leave school.
2. You Can't be Dropped
Starting this fall, your health insurance company will no longer be allowed to "drop" you (cancel your policy) if you get sick. In 2009, "rescission" was revealed to be a relatively common cost-cutting practice by several insurance companies. The practice proved to be common enough to spur several lawsuits; for example, in 2008 and 2009, California's largest insurers were made to pay out more than $19 million in fines for dropping policyholders who fell ill.
3. You Can't be Denied Insurance
Starting this year your child (or children) cannot be denied coverage simply because they have a pre-existing health condition. Health insurance companies will also be barred from denying adults applying for coverage if they have a pre-existing condition, but not until 2014.
4. You Can Spend What You Need to
Prior to the new law, health insurance companies set a maximum limit on the monetary amount of benefits that a policyholder could receive. This meant that those who developed expensive or long-lasting medical conditions could run out of coverage. Starting this year, companies will be barred from instituting caps on coverage.
5. You Don't Have to Wait
If you currently have pre-existing conditions that have prevented you from being able to qualify for health insurance for at least six months you will have coverage options before 2014. Starting this fall, you will be able to purchase insurance through a state-run "high-risk pool", which will cap your personal out-of-pocket expenses for healthcare. You will not be required to pay more than $5,950 of your own money for medical expenses; families will not have to pay any more than $11,900.
6. You Must be Insured
Under the new law starting in 2014, you will have to purchase health insurance or risk being fined. If your employer does not offer health insurance as a benefit or if you do not earn enough money to purchase a plan, you may get assistance from the government. The fines for not purchasing insurance will be levied according to a sliding scale based on income. Starting in 2014, the lowest fine would be $95 or 1% of a person's income (whichever is greater) and then increase to a high of $695 or 2.5% of an individual's taxable income by 2016. There will be a maximum cap on fines.
7. You'll Have More Options
Starting in 2014 (when you will be required by law to have health insurance), states will operate new insurance marketplaces - called "exchanges" - that will provide you with more options for buying an individual policy if you can't get, or afford, insurance from your workplace and you earn too much income to qualify for Medicaid. In addition, millions of low- and middle-income families (earning up to $88,200 annually) will be able to qualify for financial assistance from the federal government to purchase insurance through their state exchange.
8. Flexible Spending Accounts Will Become Less Flexible
Three years from now, flexible spending accounts (FSAs) will have lower contribution limits - meaning you won't be able to have as much money deducted from your paycheck pre-tax and deposited into an FSA for medical expenses as is currently allowed. The new maximum amount allowed will be $2,500. In addition, fewer expenses will qualify for FSA spending. For example, you will no longer be able to use your FSA to help defray the cost of over-the-counter drugs.
9. If You Earn More, You'll Pay More
Starting in 2018, if your combined family income exceeds $250,000 you are going to be taking less money home each pay period. That's because you will have more money deducted from your paycheck to go toward increased Medicare payroll taxes. In addition to higher payroll taxes you will also have to pay 3.8% tax on any unearned income, which is currently tax-exempt.
10. Medicare May Cover More or Less of Your Expenses
Starting this year, if Medicare is your primary form of health insurance you will no longer have to pay for preventive care such as an annual physical, screenings for treatable conditions or routine laboratory work. In addition, you will get a $250 check from the federal government to help pay for prescription drugs currently not covered as a result of the Medicare Part D "doughnut hole".
However, if you are a high-income individual or couple (making more than $85,000 individually or $170,000 jointly), your prescription drug subsidy will be reduced. In addition, if you are one of the more than 10 million people currently enrolled in a Medicare Advantage plan you may be facing higher premiums because your insurance company's subsidy from the federal government is going to be dramatically reduced.
Conclusion
Over the next few months you will most likely receive information in the mail from your health insurance company about how the newly signed law will affect your coverage. Read the correspondence carefully and don't hesitate to ask questions about your policy; there may be new, more affordable options for you down the road.
http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/109178/10-ways-the-new-healthcare-bill-may-affect-you?mod=family-love_money
Here are 10 things you need to know about how the new law may affect you:
1. Your Kids are Covered
Starting this year, if you have an adult child who cannot get health insurance from his or her employer and is to some degree dependent on you financially, your child can stay on your insurance policy until he or she is 26 years old. Currently, many insurance companies do not allow adult children to remain on their parents' plan once they reach 19 or leave school.
2. You Can't be Dropped
Starting this fall, your health insurance company will no longer be allowed to "drop" you (cancel your policy) if you get sick. In 2009, "rescission" was revealed to be a relatively common cost-cutting practice by several insurance companies. The practice proved to be common enough to spur several lawsuits; for example, in 2008 and 2009, California's largest insurers were made to pay out more than $19 million in fines for dropping policyholders who fell ill.
3. You Can't be Denied Insurance
Starting this year your child (or children) cannot be denied coverage simply because they have a pre-existing health condition. Health insurance companies will also be barred from denying adults applying for coverage if they have a pre-existing condition, but not until 2014.
4. You Can Spend What You Need to
Prior to the new law, health insurance companies set a maximum limit on the monetary amount of benefits that a policyholder could receive. This meant that those who developed expensive or long-lasting medical conditions could run out of coverage. Starting this year, companies will be barred from instituting caps on coverage.
5. You Don't Have to Wait
If you currently have pre-existing conditions that have prevented you from being able to qualify for health insurance for at least six months you will have coverage options before 2014. Starting this fall, you will be able to purchase insurance through a state-run "high-risk pool", which will cap your personal out-of-pocket expenses for healthcare. You will not be required to pay more than $5,950 of your own money for medical expenses; families will not have to pay any more than $11,900.
6. You Must be Insured
Under the new law starting in 2014, you will have to purchase health insurance or risk being fined. If your employer does not offer health insurance as a benefit or if you do not earn enough money to purchase a plan, you may get assistance from the government. The fines for not purchasing insurance will be levied according to a sliding scale based on income. Starting in 2014, the lowest fine would be $95 or 1% of a person's income (whichever is greater) and then increase to a high of $695 or 2.5% of an individual's taxable income by 2016. There will be a maximum cap on fines.
7. You'll Have More Options
Starting in 2014 (when you will be required by law to have health insurance), states will operate new insurance marketplaces - called "exchanges" - that will provide you with more options for buying an individual policy if you can't get, or afford, insurance from your workplace and you earn too much income to qualify for Medicaid. In addition, millions of low- and middle-income families (earning up to $88,200 annually) will be able to qualify for financial assistance from the federal government to purchase insurance through their state exchange.
8. Flexible Spending Accounts Will Become Less Flexible
Three years from now, flexible spending accounts (FSAs) will have lower contribution limits - meaning you won't be able to have as much money deducted from your paycheck pre-tax and deposited into an FSA for medical expenses as is currently allowed. The new maximum amount allowed will be $2,500. In addition, fewer expenses will qualify for FSA spending. For example, you will no longer be able to use your FSA to help defray the cost of over-the-counter drugs.
9. If You Earn More, You'll Pay More
Starting in 2018, if your combined family income exceeds $250,000 you are going to be taking less money home each pay period. That's because you will have more money deducted from your paycheck to go toward increased Medicare payroll taxes. In addition to higher payroll taxes you will also have to pay 3.8% tax on any unearned income, which is currently tax-exempt.
10. Medicare May Cover More or Less of Your Expenses
Starting this year, if Medicare is your primary form of health insurance you will no longer have to pay for preventive care such as an annual physical, screenings for treatable conditions or routine laboratory work. In addition, you will get a $250 check from the federal government to help pay for prescription drugs currently not covered as a result of the Medicare Part D "doughnut hole".
However, if you are a high-income individual or couple (making more than $85,000 individually or $170,000 jointly), your prescription drug subsidy will be reduced. In addition, if you are one of the more than 10 million people currently enrolled in a Medicare Advantage plan you may be facing higher premiums because your insurance company's subsidy from the federal government is going to be dramatically reduced.
Conclusion
Over the next few months you will most likely receive information in the mail from your health insurance company about how the newly signed law will affect your coverage. Read the correspondence carefully and don't hesitate to ask questions about your policy; there may be new, more affordable options for you down the road.
http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/109178/10-ways-the-new-healthcare-bill-may-affect-you?mod=family-love_money
Grade Obama's First Year in Office. (CBS Poll)
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-6116297-503544.html?tag
He still is a failure.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-6116297-503544.html?tag
He still is a failure.
Someone posted this on another forum I frequent, he didn't give a link so I don't have one.
Yo,
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture inspected food and taking the vitamins which have been determined as safe by the food and and drug administration.
At the appropriate time as regulated by the US congress and kept accurate by the national institute of standards and technology and the US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the environmental protection agency, using legal tender issued by the federal reserve bank. On the the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the kids off at the public school.
After work, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to a house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.
I then log on to the internet, which was developed by the defense advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.com and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because it's impossible for the government to do anything right.
-Anonymous
Yo,
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture inspected food and taking the vitamins which have been determined as safe by the food and and drug administration.
At the appropriate time as regulated by the US congress and kept accurate by the national institute of standards and technology and the US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the environmental protection agency, using legal tender issued by the federal reserve bank. On the the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the kids off at the public school.
After work, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to a house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.
I then log on to the internet, which was developed by the defense advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.com and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because it's impossible for the government to do anything right.
-Anonymous
That is not my post, YJ. That is some gobbledey gook you cooked up.
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