Obamacare Passes!!!

[Machjo]

This is one of the issues that have people upset. I am sketchy on the details as well but I know that when the government deals with hospitals (Through Medicare) they basically won't pay the whole bill. They fight with hospitals. The hospitals THEN pass on the costs to health insurance companies and then it gets passed onto the people with health insurance.

This is where government regulation may come into play. The government will simply regulate who gets what. That is one fear. It is too early to tell at this point how much regulation will be but if costs spiral even more out of control and the government has a stake (with subsidies) they are going to have something to say about it.

That could be a good thing too... or a bad thing.

When we look at other countries with universal health care, we have two kinds:

single payer and two-tiered. In a single-payer system, you really have no choice. There is the public plan and no private plan. Private plans are simply banned. As far as I know, there is no purely single-payer system in existence: it's more of a spectrum. Canada for example is a two-tier system but leans very much towards a single-payer system in that private insurance cannot really compete with the government plan. It can only offer additional coverage that the public option dos not cover. That's why some people choose to hop the border.

Other countries have a truly two-tier system, such as Sweden and especially Singapore, and I believe the Swiss model is very two-tier too. In a truly two-tier system, the government does ensure that a highly regulated basic option is available to those who want it, while a more luxury health care option is also available for those who are willing to pay extra.

Honestly, I'd like to see more private options in Canadian healthcare, but also see the benefit of a regulation. After all, when a person is unconscious, a hospital can administer non-consensual treatment. However, what happens when the hospital puts him in his own private room with TV in a hospital with all kinds of extra amenities and then charges him the bill for that when all he wanted was to have his life saved? The insurance company has no say in what kind of services the hospital offers. So essentially the hospital can offer luxury service and then charge the bill and no one has a say in that. After all, you can't exactly object when you're unconscious, and that's where the free-market model falls apart.

If he could choose, he'd likely opt to share a room, skip the TV, the fancy meals, the tennis court downstairs, etc. and just ask for the basics. But by the time he's conscious, it's a little late for that.

So to protect the pubic from such luxury treatment against their will, isn't it reasonable to regulate at least non-consensual care? Or do we simply say that no hospital is required to provide service to anyone until they can prove they have insurance?

This is one reason the private model is somewhat flawed when it comes to health care. According to traditional capitalist theory, nothing can be charged without an agreed-upon contract between two parties signed without coercion. That's a little tricky when you're unconscious.

 

[EagleSmack]

So is it fair that people with insurance foot the bill for those who don't?

Probably not. Believe me I cannot stand paying for those who don't insure themselves. However if they can pay the bill, they do. Nobody likes to go bankrupt nor does the hospital expect a hospital bill of $20K to be paid by the end of the month. I've never had to involve myself in paying a hospital bill on my own because I've bought insurance when I was able.

If you require everyone to buy insurance, then you're ensuring that when a person needs care, he'll actually have contributed to it himself rather than just declaring bankruptcy and passing the bill on to you. That would save you money and probably bring down your insurance premiums since now everyone would be contributing.

But it is quite clear and the Democrats will tell you the same. Premiums are not going down anywhere. They are going to increase.

As for taxes, you are right that those who can't afford the insurance will have to have it paid for by the government.

Sort of. But a man will walk into an insurance place and say that his household income is $58K per year (for example) and that he needs a subsidy. The government will say...

"WHAT! You aren't getting a subsidy!"

"But I have a mortgage, and car payments, and credit card bills..."

"Enough...I have a chart that says you make enough money so pay up."

So taxes would go up while insurance costs would go down. My guess is though that taxes would go up more than insurance costs would go down since those who can't afford the insurance would have it paid for in tax dollars. Though I could be wrong on that front too if the bill also includes ways of cutting the fat out of luxury health care.

My guess is that taxes will go up further and insurance premiums will go up further. It has to be paid for somehow.

They won't cut the luxury health care, they will tax it though. That is already in the bill. If you have a Cadillac plan...your premiums just went up.

Actually, though I'm still undecided on this, I think there would be a legitimate argument to make health insurance coverage legally binding on all persons travelling to the US so as to ensure they pay their own way healthcare-wise.

Now we are getting into legal and illegal immigration issues. They still get a free ride if they need treatment and can't pay.

A girl at work was in a snow mobile accident up there in Canada. A real bad one actually. I believe her insurance just paid for it up there.

 

[lone wolf]

To bad you can't vote out their legislation with them.

Yeah, eh.... They all tend to renege. Lots less paperwork that way.

 

[EagleSmack]

Is that why the bill passed? keep in mind Eagle S, IS A Republican...

How the heck do you know what party I belong to?

I am an Independent (or unenrolled).

I USED to be a registered Democrat when I was in a Union but when I left I registered "Unenrolled".

Also keep the name calling out of this.

WTF. You just called me a Republican.

Just remember what your beloved Government did for your people, instead of medicine he offered them body bags.......

8O

 

[eh1eh]

Congratulation America!

Welcome to humanity. :canada:

I say this without malice. I truly believe all Americans will be better off due to this bill.

 

[DaSleeper]

While the insurance companies, that just got a bail out, will get richer, lmao. I find it hilarious that you and SJP support and gush all over this.

:lol:

And now the big insurers will get bigger...Thanx Soc...:lol:

You forgot to add that the reason the insurance companies will get richer is because they won't need collection agencies ....the IRS will do it for them:lol:

 

[EagleSmack]

Other countries have a truly two-tier system, such as Sweden and especially Singapore, and I believe the Swiss model is very two-tier too. In a truly two-tier system, the government does ensure that a highly regulated basic option is available to those who want it, while a more luxury health care option is also available for those who are willing to pay extra.

.

Funny that you mention that because they are saying that this could head down the road to a two tiered health system. The haves and have nots.

Companies and individuals will have to make a choice. Keep paying the higher premiums or go on the government plans offered through insurance companies. I do not know why a company, especially a small business would NOW offer insurance and pay higher premiums when the employees are mandated to get insurance by the government. There are supposed to be tax incentives for companies that offer insurance to it's employees but the companies will have to look at the delta and see what is more beneficial.

The bigger the company the cheaper it is for Health Insurance because the pool is bigger.

But for small businesses it MAY be cheaper just to get rid of the plan and tell everyone to get the government offered plan as it is cheaper for the company's bottom line.

 

[EagleSmack]

You forgot to add that the reason the insurance companies will get richer is because they won't need collection agencies ....the IRS will do it for them:lol:

The MACK DADDY of Collection Agencies.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

It is too bad that you lack the ability to read and understand what you have read.

At no time did I mention India.

Feel free to apoloize any time.

You are quibbling my friend, you are grasping at straws here. Sure you did not mention India, but you lectured me at length as to how China is a developed country (and all you gave me was your opinion, you had no evidence whatsoever to back your claim).

And apologize? I am not in the habit of apologizing when I am right. I say China is a developing country, IMF says it is a developing country, you 'know' it is a developed country. The facts speak for themselves.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I wonder what happened to Obama's promise to wait 5 days before signing any bill?

I guess he suffers from premature (verbal) ejaculation.

And what good would that have done? There is the battle ahead in the Senate, that starts as soon as Obama signs the bill. Why wait? What is going to change if he waits five days? It will only delay the reconciliation.

 

[lone wolf]

You are a terribly obsessed little man, aren't you?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

:?:


If you think that the insurance companies should get away with wage fraud in the tune of $500 Million per year while sick people die, that says a lot about fairness in your mind.:roll::roll: When you see the crap the common American man has been put through and agree with it. Imagine being assigned to jury duty with that mentality. Wrong is fair and Right is wrong……………..:roll:

Cut them some slack, Socrates. Conservatives have lost a big one, a crushing defeat (according to conservative activist, David Frum). They are still licking their wounds.

For some inconceivable reason, conservatives here in Canada seem to be upset about this, though for the life of me, I cannot imagine why.

But they have lost a big one, they are still licking their wounds. Cut them some slack, it is understandable that they will wail, weep, beat the ground with their fist, make irrational statements here.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I do say that China is just as developed as is Canada and the U.S., I also should also say that we all are developing countries, not developed countries like Great Briton as is most if not all of Europe, if were not developing, we would be dead with no future. IMF to me means as it did in movies "Impossible Missions Force", nothing more. So bottom line, I agree that China is a developing country.

You are wrong here. China is nowhere as developed as USA or Canada, it is very much a developing country, a lot less developed that USA or Canada. I say that based upon per capita income, per capita GDP. IMF says the same thing.

You are telling us that China is as developed as USA as your personal opinion only, you don't have a shred of evidence to back it up. You somehow feel (sorry, you 'know') that you are more competent to judge these matters than IMF.

Now, maybe some will believe you over IMF (there is one born every minute). But I don't. I take the word of financial experts at IMF rather than accept your unfounded opinion that China is as developed as USA.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Make sense CB AND DON’T FART through your mouth.

Again, cut them some slack. Conservatives here are simply throwing a tantrum, nothing more. They have lost a big one, it will take them a while before they start thinking logically again. I don’t know why Canadian conservatives had invested so much in Republicans winning this health care war in USA, but apparently they had.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

But where does the money come from for his procedure prior to him paying it back? Does the government pay the hospital for their services then collect from him (assuming he will pay installments)? Is it the hospital? What if he doesn't pay it back, who is covering it?

Kreskin, I heard something truly astounding on TV yesterday. I am not sure I heard it right, but I think I did hear it right. A commentator said that for every one dollar that a typical hospital sends out as a bill, it recovers only 4 cents. Now, I don’t know if he was talking of only the amount billed to patients, or the total amount billed to patients, insurance companies etc.

Indeed, he said that is one of the reasons why hospital charges are so high. They have to keep them high so that they will recover at least a part of it.

 

[AnnaG]

"Obamacare Passes!!!" 3 exclamation marks. wow Sir Porker must think he'll get a gratuity from the Big O if he cheers loud enough. Maybe try pompoms and a microskirt next time?

I heard that on the news today along with the Big O's little speechifying and thought, I hope it works. Then I started thinking about other stuff.

 

[lone wolf]

Again, cut them some slack. Conservatives here are simply throwing a tantrum, nothing more. They have lost a big one, it will take them a while before they start thinking logically again. I don’t know why Canadian conservatives had invested so much in Republicans winning this health care war in USA, but apparently they had.

From what I can see, with one exception, we're all Canadian ... and you are exaggerating again.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

And since he has nothing to lose anyway, he declares bankruptcy, and the hospital swallows the cost and passes it on to the insurance company which in its turn passes it on to its clients.

Quite so. That is why 60 or 70% of all the bankruptcies are declared due to health care costs.

I guess if the law requires a hospital to provide essential services regardless of ability to pay, then the US technically had universal coverage already, with those purchasing insurance essentially footing the bill for those who couldn't pay for their healthcare. So what will be the difference now with this new bill?

Also, do foreigners visiting the US require insurance before crossing the border?

They don't have universal coverage. Hospitals are obliged only to provide emergency treatment, they are under no obligation to provide non emergency treatment. Hardly universal coverage.

And no they don't ask for proof of medical insurance when you enter USA. At least they didn't in my case, in 1971. From 1971 to 1976, when I was doing my Ph.D, I had no insurance at all. In 1976 when I started doing my post doc, my professor then bought Blue Cross Blue Shield for me.

Looking back, I realize if I had been caught up in a serious accident, US government would have picked up the tab for me. I assume if I had terminal cancer or something like that, they would have deported me.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

How the heck do you know what party I belong to?

I am an Independent (or unenrolled).

WTF. You just called me a Republican.

Calling somebody a Republican is name calling? Well, I have been called lot worse here than a Republican.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Congratulation America!

Welcome to humanity. :canada:

I say this without malice. I truly believe all Americans will be better off due to this bill.

This is but a baby step towards universal coverage, but a welcome one nevertheless. Maybe in another generation, when Democrats have a similar majority once again, they can take it a step further. You can be sure that as long as Republicans have anything to say about it, no reform will get done.