Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

[petros]

Now that Christianity has been "wiped off the map" in Israel....who is to blame?

Come all you AnteSemites who is to blame?

 

[ironsides]

You also seem to be skipping the original crime, Jews making war against Arab civilians for more than 5 months prior to the war of independence way back. Do you understand that those are war-crimes and that was the start of the current conflict.
It would seem that if a crime can go 20 years without prosecution the it ceases to be a crime. Israel had been practicing for the 6 day war since '65.

"Israel had been practicing for the 6 day war since '65." Yes, and they did a pretty good job, think I'll just sit back while those who want to destroy me build up and get ready. Hardly, they cannot afford to lose even once.
Israel really did not have any other option once the mighty United Nations bugged out. Even if Israel gave all the land reclaimed since 1948 back, you would still find fault with them. Israel will destroy the Palestinians and the Arab nations totally if there is another war.

I would like to see a peaceful solution also, but not at the expense of another war that you are encouraging, because that is the only way you will see a solution, and you won't like the results again.

 

[darkbeaver]

Yes I do. You don't appear to know the difference between reason in the sense of logic, and reason in the sense of an explanation.

Yes I do. Neither the noun or verb reason is a substitute for cause.

 

[darkbeaver]

Now that Christianity has been "wiped off the map" in Israel....who is to blame?

Come all you AnteSemites who is to blame?

Those damn IslamoNazis?

 

[petros]

Those damn IslamoNazis?

Islamo nazis bombed the Church of the Nativity with an F16 too?

 

[darkbeaver]

They don't have f16s, wait a minute you can't mean the most moral army the world has ever seen.

 

[petros]

The one that has more UN charges than all the other nations combined in the entire history of the UN or the one that gave them the plane, ammunition, training and maintenance on the backs of their taxpayers while vetoing every legitimate UN claim filed to the Security Counsel leaving the entire world without any say?

 

[Goober]

Now that Christianity has been "wiped off the map" in Israel....who is to blame?

Come all you AnteSemites who is to blame?

Went looking for demographics and could not find to much info -do you have stats??

 

[petros]

Went looking for demographics and could not find to much info -do you have stats??

Now and then type stats? Number of Christians killed by Israel? Number of those who fled to the borderlands of Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt? Number of Christians that still try to survive under Israeli oppression and occupation in West Bank and Gaza? The number of Christians in Israeli prisons?

 

[MHz]

"Israel had been practicing for the 6 day war since '65." Yes, and they did a pretty good job, think I'll just sit back while those who want to destroy me build up and get ready. Hardly, they cannot afford to lose even once.
Israel really did not have any other option once the mighty United Nations bugged out. Even if Israel gave all the land reclaimed since 1948 back, you would still find fault with them. Israel will destroy the Palestinians and the Arab nations totally if there is another war.

I would like to see a peaceful solution also, but not at the expense of another war that you are encouraging, because that is the only way you will see a solution, and you won't like the results again.

You might but your country sure doesn't. The Jews have been at continuous war sine the UN came up with their partition plan. (Nov, 47)You don't need a world class army to go raiding tiny villages in the middle of the night. My may of '48 the Israeli military controlled a certain amount of area already. That means they were cleansed of Arabs. The 'war' was because Israel declared that any Arabs that were made refugees in that time frame lost all rights to return home. A war-crimes trial would have given the land back to the refugees. The 'War of Independance' was more of the same but on a larger scale. The UN document was in breech (not to the benefit of the Jews) the moment the terrorizing of Arab villagers began the lost their right to the land .... again.

Palestine 1947 District And District Centers

 

[petros]

Too much **** just ain't right. When will there be justice?

On 29 March 2002, Israel began what it called "Operation Defensive Shield", an unprecedented invasion of Palestinian towns to "defeat the infrastructure of Palestinian terror in all its parts and components" according to the Israeli Cabinet Communique that announced the massive military operation.

At approximately 2:00 a.m. on 2 April 2002, Israeli occupation forces invaded the neighbouring towns of Bethlehem, Beit Jala, and Beit Sahour, according to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights:

"using approximately 250 tanks and armored personnel carriers, F-16 fighter jets, and Apache gunships. At approximately 04:30, they seized full control over the three cities, except the Old Town. In the invasion, which was accompanied by indiscriminate shelling, 60-year-old �Aaboud al-�Ameri, from Bethlehem, a guard of a building in Beit Sahour, was killed.

At approximately 10:15, Israeli occupation forces fired three artillery shells at the house of Khaled Ibrahim �Aabda, 38. He and his mother, Sumaia Hussein �Aabda, 60, were killed by shrapnel. Israeli forces did not allow the evacuation of the bodies to hospital or their burial. The bodies remained with other residents of the house, including children, in the same room.

At approximately 11:30, Israeli occupation forces shelled Santa Maria Church in al-Madbasa neighborhood. A number of priests and nuns were wounded, including Father Jack As�ad, a Palestinian who holds the Italian citizenship, who was seriously wounded.

In the afternoon, three Palestinian gunmen were killed while confronting an invasion by Israeli occupation forces of a small neighborhood in Bethlehem... In addition, 18-year-old 'Eissa Da'bous, from Bethlehem, was killed by a live bullet in the head, while he was in front of his house in the same area."
​

Trapped between advancing Israeli forces in the center of Bethlehem, approximately 200 Palestinians -- mostly civilians and policeman, along with some gunmen from local Fatah militias and Christian clergy -- took refuge in the Church of the Nativity, the Christian holy site built over the traditional location where Jesus Christ was born. Palestinians had last sought refuge in the church during Israel's occupation of the West Bank in 1967.

Anton Salman, a member of the Antonius Society, a humanitarian group in Bethlehem, spoke to CNN about the motivations of those who sought refuge in the church:

CNN/KAGAN: How many people are inside the church?

SALMAN: It's around 200.

CNN/KAGAN: Are we talking men, women, children?

SALMAN: Yes, mostly men.

CNN/KAGAN: Are they Palestinian gunmen?

SALMAN: They are from the Palestinian police and ... mostly from the Palestinian Authority police, who ran away to the Church of the Nativity to implore protection inside the church after [unintelligible] was bombed and shot at by Israeli tanks and soldiers. And they saw their mosque, Umar, which is across from the Church of the Nativity, bombed. They were afraid, and they looked for a place to be secure. So they found the only way; they ran to the church and found a place to stay.

CNN/KAGAN: They not only picked a secure place, they picked one of most holy places in the world to Christians and put that in peril. Do they realize that?

SALMAN: We here understand our history, and that the Church of the Nativity [has been a sacred] place to the people during all wars. ... So from this point, they thought that the Church of the Nativity was a safer place to enter and ... entered the church looking for protection. They are still inside the church.

(Man details situation in Church of the Nativity, CNN.com, 3 April 2002.)

 

[Goober]

Now and then type stats? Number of Christians killed by Israel? Number of those who fled to the borderlands of Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt? Number of Christians that still try to survive under Israeli oppression and occupation in West Bank and Gaza? The number of Christians in Israeli prisons?

Demographics over the past 50 -100 years based upon religion - How many jews, Muslims, Druze, Christians -

 

[petros]

You don't need a world class army to go raiding tiny villages in the middle of the night.

Just make sure to paint your door with lamb's blood.

 

[MHz]

Went looking for demographics and could not find to much info -do you have stats??

If they have made us extinct there why would there be any stats?

You may have heard the propaganda that God will curse those who curse Israel (the reality is that was said to Abraham not Israel) ... if not oh well, there is one in the NT about a Christian being killed though being revenged by God. That would seem to mean that if a Jew (who has a promise to be alive when Christ returns) would seem to lose that gift if he saw himself having immunity to having sins forgiven.

2Th:1:5:
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God,
that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th:1:6:
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th:1:7:
And to you who are troubled rest with us,
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th:1:8:
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th:1:9:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord,
and from the glory of his power;

I'm not sure how a Jew could be exempted really, especially since this was written when Jewish persecution of Christians was already going strong.

 

[petros]

Demographics over the past 50 -100 years based upon religion - How many jews, Muslims, Druze, Christians -

Recent history
See also: Bethlehem#Christian_population

Palestinian Christians celebrating the Eve of the Epiphany (Paramony) at Bethabara, on the Western bank of the Jordan River (West Bank, near Jericho), in Eastern Orthodox tradition.


The proportions of Christians in the Palestinian territories is such that they only constitute around one in seventy-five residents.[11] In May, Reuters reported that 33,000 - 40,000 Christians remained in the West Bank, with around 17,000 following the Roman Catholic tradition and most of the rest following the Greek Orthodox church.[12] Both Bethlehem and Nazareth, which were once overwhelmingly Christian, now have strong Muslim majorities. Today about three-quarters of all Bethlehem Christians live abroad, and more Jerusalem Christians live in Sydney, Australia than in Jerusalem. Indeed, Christians now comprise just 2.5 percent of the population Jerusalem, they once comprised around 40%, those remaining include a few born in the Old City when Christians there constituted a majority.[13]
In a 2007 letter from Congressman Henry Hyde to President George W. Bush, Hyde stated that "the Christian community is being crushed in the mill of the bitter Israeli-Palestinian conflict" and that expanding Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem were "irreversibly damaging the dwindling Christian community."[14][15]
Most Christians in Gaza blame the Israeli occupation pre-2005, the current siege on the city and the war on Gaza 2009 to be the reason for their Exodus from Gaza. During the recent war on Gaza, two churches, Baptist and Catholic, were slightly damaged by Israeli shelling, and many Christians including 15 year old Christine Turk [16], lost their lives during the Gaza offensive. There had been reported attacks on Palestinian Christians in Gaza from small Muslim extremist groups, most notably Ramy Ayyad, but Gaza Pastor Manuel Musallam doubts the attacks were religiously motivated[17]

 

[MHz]

Just make sure to paint your door with lamb's blood.

They painted the villages with blood all right.

 

[Goober]

They painted the villages with blood all right.

I will post this again as I had no replies - Open questionI see The statement by Canaduh as clearly Racist - Am I wrong, right or prejudiced?Canaduh

Your quote "the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card".
The Native American "holocaust" happened before the media could latch onto it, not to mention the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card.

 

[Colpy]

Suffice to say Israel attacked first and without warning.

You accuse me of half truths IS??? I was just pointing out that Israel initiated that war which is true. If you want more details I can give it. But unlike you I'll comment on what BOTH sides did. You only mention what Israel's Arab neighbors did, which is only half the truth.

Yes there were cross border raids. Palestinian guerillas would launch small cross border raids into Israel and Israel would attack their camps on the other side of the borders. That had been going on for years. The biggest raid was when Israel attacked a series of dams in Syria in March, May, and August 1965, perpetuating a prolonged chain of border violence that linked directly to the events leading to war. Mind you Syria was diverting the Jordan river...

Yes there was a military buildup, on both sides of the border. And Egypt's President made a number of beligerent statements and threats as well as closed the straights of Tiran to all boats carrying strategic materials and goods to Israel.

But Israel was not attacked first as per the common misperception. Israel inititated the war and making it sound like self defense is plain wrong. Israel attacked with overwhleming force suddenly and without warning and kept all the land they conquered. Also consider this:

So its clear that Israel was playing games in order to provoke and justify a war. Israel planned all along to use their superior military force to invade, occupy and annex more land. Hardly an example of self defense.

Crap.

Israel is TINY. Egypt telegraphed her intention of invasion in numerous ways.....including massing "overwhelming force" on Israel's border. Israel decided to attack for two reasons:

1. Much better to meet the enemy in Sinai and fight on their territory, than to do the fighting in Israel itself. This avoids destruction of most of the nation.....

2. Hopefully a surprize attack would manage to destroy enemy air assets on the ground.....which would simply not have happened had they waited to be attacked.

3. Israel simply can not mobilize and then wait around for days or weeks for the war to start on the enemy's timetable......in a conventional total war in Israel.....EVERYTHING grinds to a halt because everybody is defending the nation.

Israel's pre-emptive strike was just that.........and absolutely a legitimate action, necessary to the preservation of the state.

Which is, of course, why you hate it so much.

If i see someone charging at me, gun in hand, I don't have to wait until they step on my property or shoot me before I respond......

 

[TenPenny]

Israel's pre-emptive strike was just that.........and absolutely a legitimate action, necessary to the preservation of the state.
.

I seem to recall reading the autobiography of Queen Noor, of Jordan, who mentioned the pre-emptive strike in her book; apparently, the Jordanians had some reports that the Egyptian forces had been decimated, and were thinking of not attacking, but the official sources from Egypt insisted that the Israelis were slaughtered, so the Jordanians went ahead with their part...only to be hammered in return.

 

[petros]

I will post this again as I had no replies - Open questionI see The statement by Canaduh as clearly Racist - Am I wrong, right or prejudiced?Canaduh

Your quote "the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card".
The Native American "holocaust" happened before the media could latch onto it, not to mention the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card.

Should the Ukrainian Govt alter historic Soviet documents and remove the names the the Jews who planned and partook in the Holodomor just because it will look bad for Jews?

KIEV, Ukraine (JTA) – A Jewish group in Ukraine is objecting to a criminal case brought over the “Great Famine” committed in the 1930s.
The nation’s security service is pressing the case against a list of former Soviet officials accused of committing the Holodomor, which caused the deaths of millions in Ukraine in 1932-33. Most of the names on the list were Jewish.

Ukrainian lawmaker Aleksandr Feldman, leader of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee, said last week that it was “a farce” to press the case.
“All organizers of the Great Famine are dead,” he said.
Last July, the Ukrainian Security Service released a list of high-ranking Soviet state and Communist Party officials – as well as officials from NKVD, the police force of Soviet Russia – that essentially blamed Jews and Latvians responsible for perpetrating and executing the famine because most of the names on the list were Jewish.
The Ukrainian Jewish Committee called on the secret service to revise the list, which incited interethnic hatred, in order to clear up the “inaccuracy.”
Feldman believes there is a danger that the “Holodomor Affair” materials are being used for political purposes.
In late May, security service head Valentin Nalivaychenko claimed at a meeting with representatives of the World Congress of Ukrainians that “Ukraine has collected enough evidence to bring a criminal case regarding the famine, which was artificially created by the Bolshevik regime and caused mass death of citizens.”
Through the World Congress of Ukrainians, Nalivaychenko turned to leading foreign lawyers with a request to help find out the circumstances connected with preparing and committing the genocide.