Israel and Gaza Settlements - Legal or not?

[Goober]

EAOI don't discriminate based on race or religion like you. I see all people as equal.



I do see al people as equals - and Human rights for all - But I can tell the difference between a Jihadist and a Palestinian who wants good Govt and peace - Can you tell the difference ?

 

[earth_as_one]

I can tell the difference between a war criminal and someone who wants to peacefully coexist with their neighbors. Can you tell the difference?

You support Zionist war criminals, or lets put it this way.... I can't recall you acknowledging a single Israeli war crime.

I recognize this war has war criminals on all sides and I don't support war criminals. I support bringing all war criminals to justice, not just "Jihadist" war criminals.

I'm not in favor of assassinating war criminals, but apprehending them and making them face justice. How about you? Would you want to see "Jihadist" war criminals assassinated or would you prefer they stand trial?

Are you even in favor of bringing Zionist war criminals to justice?

IMO, Zionist war criminals and "Jihadist" war criminals should be treated the same as other war criminals. Canada should arrest people who are reasonably alleged to have committed war crimes who set foot in Canada. If the case has merit and they aren't Canadians, we deport them to the custody of the International Court of Justice, where they can defend their actions in a court of law based on the evidence.

I consider all individuals innocent until proven guilty.

 

[damngrumpy]

First of all no one cares about the UN and secondly not even America recognizes the
world courts. International Justice Commissions are a total waste of time. World
Courts are also a waste of time, the outcome of the trial is determined before the
session even begins. Israel, while I am not a total fan of everything they do, I much
prefer them to the alternative. Muslims are little more than international trouble
makers, their religion is their politics to a large degree. The most serious problem
is that there is no central, clergy and the whole religion drifts according to who is
doing the preaching. The religion is identified by the radicals and they fuel the
rhetoric, that is going to create a serious backlash in the west. As for the Gaza there
is no settlements now, and the rule of the world is if you win it on the battlefield its
yours, so settlements on the West Bank, while not helpful are a simple fact of life
and nothing will change it. As for what the Arabs think, the majority of the world
really doesn't care.

 

[earth_as_one]

DamnGrump:

There is more than one alternative to the current situation.

The current situation leads to continuous war in the short to medium term. In the longterm, the US will inevitably end its military and ecomomic support for Israel either as a result of political or economic pressure. After Israel's military decays for a few years, they'll probably get stomped on by their angry neighbors, leading to a final set of atrocities probably involving nuclear weapons and millions of deaths on all sides.

If I understand your post, you are content to let Israel's leaders continue committing war crimes and crimes against humanity against millions of innocent men, women and children with impunity. You appear to support international lawlessness or at least continuing to allow Israel to ignore international treaties and conventions regarding human rights without criticism, let alone consequences.

Your comment in support of Israel indicates leads me to believe that you support Israel's collective punishment blockade of the Gaza strip, which prevents food and medicine from reaching over a million hungry and sick people, Israel's destruction of Gaza's infrastructure which results in raw sewage flowing in Gaza's streets and critical shortages of potable water. Since Israel has destroyed the ability of Gazans to farm, and bans imports of construction material, Gazans are now completely dependent on outside food aid for survival and that this aid is blocked by Israel. Were you aware that as a result of this crime against humanity many Gazan children and pregnant women unnecessarily suffer disease and severe malnutrition to the point where children are stunted. Israel's man made plague and famine in Gaza has resulted conditions to sub-saharan Africa. Confirm, that you support these crimes?

Meanwhile in the West Bank, Israel's daily home demolitions, rolling annexations, Jewish only colony building and other ethnic cleansing activity continues to squeeze non-Jews (Mostly Muslims and Christians) into ever smaller enclaves. Each day that goes by, these people loose a little more access to arable land for farming and sources of water, which is important when living in near desert like conditions. Many of these West Bank enclaves are now surrounded by walls, razor wire, guard towers and just like Gaza, they resemble concentration camps. Most Palestinians living under Israeli occupation now find themselves imprisoned within their enclave because of their race and religion rather than criminal activity.

DamnGrumpy, how do you feel about people who attack unarmed civilians with white flags, bomb UN shelters with chemical weapons, use innocent civilians including children literally as human shields (using human bodies as shields as they engage their adversaries with bullets, mortars and shells), bombing hospitals, shooting drivers of ambulances and trucks loaded with humanitarian food and medical aid??? Should the people responsible for these crimes be held accountable for their actions? If any of these war criminals come to Canada, should we arrest them?

A trial at the ICJ can result in serious jail time. At a minimum it is a permanent record of who did what to whom for present and future reference. It would help organizations fighting for Palestinian justice to raise awareness and apply pressure on Israel and any entity which does business with Israel. Awareness, political and economic pressure led to freedom and justice for millions of South Africans who suffered under Apartheid and I believe it could also help end Palestinian suffering.

Probably the biggest reason why Canadians don't demand that Israeli war criminals be held to the same level of accountability as other war criminals, is ignorance. Most Canadians have no idea what happened a year ago in Gaza.

BTW, many of these atrocities I referenced are described in detail in the Goldstone Report
United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza conflict

I can find many other references supporting allegations of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity in Gaza and the West Bank:

Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories | Amnesty International Report 2009

Israel / Occupied Palestinian Territories Human Rights | Reports, News Articles & Campaigns | Amnesty International

>>>>
DamnGrumpy, you have some common misperceptions regarding Islam. Islam is a religion based on the Qu'ran. Its a similar concept to how Christianity is based mostly on the New Testament. Both Christianity and Islam have many sects and as a result many different interpretations. Like Christians, the level of Muslim devoutness ranges from fundamentalist to secular.

This link:
http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/writings/islamic/democracy.htm
...deals with many issues you raised. It illustrates why you can't accurately make general statements about 1.2 billion individual Muslims. Just like it would be impossible to accurately make similar statements regarding all Christians or every Christian sect.

I would agree that most Muslim majority countries are messed up. Some of that is self inflicted. But a good deal of it can be traced back to colonialism, and other forms of past and present western interference. But a few functioning Muslim majority democracies do exist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia#Government_and_politics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria#Politics

These countries aren't perfect, but neither is Canada's democractic system. However, the examples set by Malaysia and Algeria prove Islam is not a barrier to democracy. Concepts of freedom and justice exist in Islam, just like they do in every mainstream religion.

Individual people and their personal beliefs are the problem, not their religions.

 

[MHz]

First of all no one cares about the UN and secondly not even America recognizes the world courts. International Justice Commissions are a total waste of time. World Courts are also a waste of time, the outcome of the trial is determined before the session even begins. Israel, while I am not a total fan of everything they do, I much prefer them to the alternative. Muslims are little more than international trouble makers, their religion is their politics to a large degree. The most serious problem is that there is no central, clergy and the whole religion drifts according to who is doing the preaching. The religion is identified by the radicals and they fuel the rhetoric, that is going to create a serious backlash in the west. As for the Gaza there is no settlements now, and the rule of the world is if you win it on the battlefield its yours, so settlements on the West Bank, while not helpful are a simple fact of life and nothing will change it. As for what the Arabs think, the majority of the world really doesn't care.

Wasn't it the UN that made it possible (with a lot of influence) for a mass influx of Jews into Palestine? If they are doing what you approve of they are worthwhile, if not they are useless. That is a double standard in the biggest of ways.

 

[Goober]

EAO = Post 20

Goober: "Those dammed Jews eh"



I never mentioned Jews. I was referencing people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity. Things which are not endorsed by Judaism... People who do these things may claim to be Jewish, but they are like people who claim to be Christian on Sunday, but rob and steal from Monday through Saturday. Their alleged religion is beside the point when it comes to their criminal activity.Many of these criminals claim to be Jewish and they try to justify their criminal activities with selective references to Judaism, but that hardly makes them Jewish. If they were following Judaism to the letter, they would be peacefully co-existing with their neighbors, not be committing atrocities.



Point - How many have been indicted - Israelis - that is - How many Arabs or Persians have been indicted -I note you only refer to Jews in this post - And you have the audacity to call me a racist - Blood must be running a tad hot and I will take it as such a moment - We all have them

You support Zionist war criminals, or lets put it this way.... I can't recall you acknowledging a single Israeli war crime.

I recognize this war has war criminals on all sides and I don't support war criminals. I support bringing all war criminals to justice, not just "Jihadist" war criminals.

EAO Post 22

I'm not in favor of assassinating war criminals, but apprehending them and making them face justice. How about you? Would you want to see "Jihadist" war criminals assassinated or would you prefer they stand trial?Are you even in favor of bringing Zionist war criminals to justice?


Point - I am fully in favor of assignations of Islamic Fanatics - Predator drones' - Delta Force types - CIA - Taking them down which ever way possible and keeping causalities to the minimum.

So How many Hamas and Hezbollah members have been indicted since the formation of the International Courts ans special Prosecutors assigned to build cases for crimes against humanity - War Crimes - killings of civilians - deliberately as they were the target - Give me the count - You have so much info at your fingertips it should quite easy - Please Start on the East of Africa and work your way West to include all Arab and Persian Countries - How many have been indicted?

Patiently waiting.

 

[Goober]

Wasn't it the UN that made it possible (with a lot of influence) for a mass influx of Jews into Palestine? If they are doing what you approve of they are worthwhile, if not they are useless. That is a double standard in the biggest of ways.

Well Hello Slither Man


The same questions I posed to EAO are applicable to you.
Come on down and answer a straight forward question - or can you? I doubt it - you will most likely slither up an answer, oh pardon me a question that is totally off topic and a diversion - Do you think everyone is blind to this infantile tactic? Answer requested.

 

[earth_as_one]

The majority of war crimes were committed by the Israeli side. I'm in favor of indicting people for the war crimes detailed in the Goldstone report. That would include all the Israeli soldiers who committed these atrocities as well as the Israeli leaders who authorized them. But it also includes all Palestinian militants who fired rockets and mortars at Israeli civilians as well as the Palestinian leaders who authorized them.

The Goldstone report is a starting point. It doesn't indict anyone. What it does is identify that war crimes and crimes against humanity were committed by both sides and puts the onus on the Israeli and Palestinian leadership to investigate and charge those responsible. Failure by either side to carry out their obligations will result in the UNHRC naming and indicting people.

I'm not in favor of extrajudicial or targetted assassinations and the resulting collateral damage. These are just propaganda terms designed to make indescriminate murder sound legal. When Israel's adversaries do the same thing, its called terrorism. The same rules of war have to apply everyone.

 

[earth_as_one]

damngrumpy, I've been thinking about your post. I see your viewpoint as about the same as people who claimed they weren't a fan of everything the South African Apartheid government did, but they preferred their system to the alternative which was to give black people equal rights. These people also pointed to failed African states to support their position that black people (like Barak Obama for example) aren't capable of running a country.

First of all no one cares about the UN and secondly not even America recognizes the
world courts. International Justice Commissions are a total waste of time. World
Courts are also a waste of time, the outcome of the trial is determined before the
session even begins. Israel, while I am not a total fan of everything they do, I much
prefer them to the alternative. Muslims are little more than international trouble
makers, their religion is their politics to a large degree. The most serious problem
is that there is no central, clergy and the whole religion drifts according to who is
doing the preaching. The religion is identified by the radicals and they fuel the
rhetoric, that is going to create a serious backlash in the west. As for the Gaza there
is no settlements now, and the rule of the world is if you win it on the battlefield its
yours, so settlements on the West Bank, while not helpful are a simple fact of life
and nothing will change it. As for what the Arabs think, the majority of the world
really doesn't care.

 

[MHz]

No Goober I'm quite sure most people on this forum (and probably most forums in the 'West') fully support the West's view that the settlements won't ever be given back, fact is the West Bank and Gaza will become history and so will the people.
The land grab by the UN was just as illegal as any foreign invasion, the countries that supported it are guilty of war crimes, the UN itself is guilty of a war-crime.

I only hope you get to experience the same things that the people of Gaza endure

 

[Goober]

MHZ

Thank you for wishing plague upon me - I consider that to be complimentary and take it as so. Some critical points - also known as fact that you conveniently overlook in your Anti -Semitic view of what happened - Guess Hitler is another one of your heroes. Along with Eichmann and the rest.

West bank should have belonged to Jordan and after the PLO tried to overthrow and institute their own Govt - put down with the active military assistance of Israel - King Hussein saw them for what they were and still are - Not all - mind you but the leadership - Poison - He want SFA to do with the West Bank - Wonder why - perhaps you have an answer as to why Jordan looks upon the West Bank like a plague that kills.

Though routinely referred to nowadays as “Palestinian” land, at no point in history has Jerusalem or the West Bank been under Palestinian Arab sovereignty in any sense of the term. For several hundred years leading up to World War I, all of Israel, the Kingdom of Jordan, and the putative state of Palestine were merely provinces of the Ottoman Empire. After British-led Allied troops routed the Turks from the country in 1917-18, the League of Nations blessed Britain’s occupation with a document that gave the British conditional control granted under a mandate. It empowered Britain to facilitate the creation of a “Jewish National Home” while respecting the rights of the native Arab population. British Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill later partitioned the mandate in 1922 and gave the East Bank of the Jordan to his country’s Hashemite Arab allies, who created the Kingdom of Jordan there under British tutelage.

As B’Tselem acknowledges, however, the vast majority of this land is in the Jordan Valley, which, with the primary exception of the city of Jericho, was barely populated by Palestinian Arabs prior to 1967 (which explains why such land was both unregistered and uncultivated). The percentage may also be on the high side because of the inclusion of certain Jerusalem neighborhoods in B’Tselem’s calculations. Regardless of the gross percentage, according to B’Tselem’s own statistics, only approximately 5% of the West Bank is within settlement “municipal boundaries,” and a much, much smaller percentage of land, 1.7%, is developed.Gaza -

Well as history does show Jews lived in Gaza and many of the larger cities that are now Palestinian - It was never Palestinian land - Ottoman- So as long as they are Arabs you look upon it with favor - Jews - Well - different opinion you have - Possibly does not fit with your biblical view of what the Bible states will occur -

Funny thing is if you read the Quran - Jesus leads the armies of heaven against the Anti Christ - Now Ain't that somethin - Arabs -Muslims - led by a Jew - Surely must make you gag - a dammed Jew -

From my original post - some point for your sophisticated review. The sophistry here masks a deeper issue. Aside from its circularity, B’Tselem’s argument equates whatever rights Bedouin may have with the rights of sedentary Arab villages on the outskirts of Jerusalem. The only reason for such an equation is that both are Arabs and not Jews. B’Tselem’s assertion that the land belongs to these villages collapses into the contention that only Arabs, not Jews, have the right to own and use these lands.Julius Stone referred to the absurdity of considering the establishment of Israeli settlements as violating Article 49(6): “We would have to say that the effect of Article 49(6) is to impose an obligation on the State of Israel to ensure (by force if necessary) that these areas, despite their millennial association with Jewish life, shall be forever judenrein. Irony would thus be pushed to the absurdity of claiming that Article 49(6), designed to prevent repetition of Nazi-type genocidal policies of rendering Nazi metropolitan territories judenrein, has now come to mean that … the West Bank … must be made judenrein and must be so maintained, if necessary by the use of force by the government of Israel against its own inhabitants. Common sense as well as correct historical and functional context exclude so tyrannical a reading of Article 49(6).Though routinely referred to nowadays as “Palestinian” land, at no point in history has Jerusalem or the West Bank been under Palestinian Arab sovereignty in any sense of the term. For several hundred years leading up to World War I, all of Israel, the Kingdom of Jordan, and the putative state of Palestine were merely provinces of the Ottoman Empire. After British-led Allied troops routed the Turks from the country in 1917-18, the League of Nations blessed Britain’s occupation with a document that gave the British conditional control granted under a mandate. It empowered Britain to facilitate the creation of a “Jewish National Home” while respecting the rights of the native Arab population. British Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill later partitioned the mandate in 1922 and gave the East Bank of the Jordan to his country’s Hashemite Arab allies, who created the Kingdom of Jordan there under British tutelage.

 

[MHz]

Seriously, a year in Gaza would change your writing style considerably.

Your post seems to be missing something, Palestine was offered independence if they helped the Brits in WWI. They did help but the Brits reneged on that promise and decided to take the land and give it to their Jewish friends. The Balfour Declaration was before the war.
Would you like to go over the original UN document to see just how early the Jews were committing war crime. They were doing those things before German trials were over. Any land that came into Jewish hand was supposed to have been bought from the owners (at a handsome price). Making them leave in fear of their lives is a war-crime. You seem to support war crimes as a way to do things, as long as your side is the only side doing it.
BTW the UN could solve a lot of things by putting itself on trial for the war crime of invasion with conquest of land as the target. Since only a few UN members voted for that theft of land (and all crimes that came of that vote) should be the ones coughing up any damage$, and the bank bailout would be chump change compared to what the original owners will get.

Seriously take a trip and walk around Gaza and the West Bank for even just a few weeks, you love this topic so much you really owe it to yourself to see it from real close up as viewed from deep inside Gaza during a time of heightened crisis. (as in from 1948 until today. Take two cameras and have someone film you in case you, well, don't survive. The we could look at it and find out what not to do when we take the trip. Should bombing happen don't try to catch the sparkly things that leave a white smoke trail. Know what I mean.

Your writing has changed (more venom if that is even possible) in the last while, are you handlers now living with you?

 

[Goober]

Seriously, a year in Gaza would change your writing style considerably.

Your post seems to be missing something, Palestine was offered independence if they helped the Brits in WWI. They did help but the Brits reneged on that promise and decided to take the land and give it to their Jewish friends. The Balfour Declaration was before the war.
Would you like to go over the original UN document to see just how early the Jews were committing war crime. They were doing those things before German trials were over. Any land that came into Jewish hand was supposed to have been bought from the owners (at a handsome price). Making them leave in fear of their lives is a war-crime. You seem to support war crimes as a way to do things, as long as your side is the only side doing it.
BTW the UN could solve a lot of things by putting itself on trial for the war crime of invasion with conquest of land as the target. Since only a few UN members voted for that theft of land (and all crimes that came of that vote) should be the ones coughing up any damage$, and the bank bailout would be chump change compared to what the original owners will get.

Seriously take a trip and walk around Gaza and the West Bank for even just a few weeks, you love this topic so much you really owe it to yourself to see it from real close up as viewed from deep inside Gaza during a time of heightened crisis. (as in from 1948 until today. Take two cameras and have someone film you in case you, well, don't survive. The we could look at it and find out what not to do when we take the trip. Should bombing happen don't try to catch the sparkly things that leave a white smoke trail. Know what I mean.

Your writing has changed (more venom if that is even possible) in the last while, are you handlers now living with you?

Not venom - just what i consider you to be from your posting - i now belive in what we called in the Army - Snow Snakes -

As to wishing my death - When God wants me he will take me -

 

[MHz]

So are you relating your service in the Army to your current position on worldly political events? Got a problem, send in the Army, not enough problems, send in the Army. When that is the solution to every problem you are in a society that will have extreme problems.
I wouldn't have to wish for it, your actions would most likely bring it all by itself, if I wished you dead I could wish for a fatal accident on your own street. I want to see if your views would change.
It's one thing to be in the Army it is another thing to be in the Army in a time of war.

 

[Goober]

So are you relating your service in the Army to your current position on worldly political events? Got a problem, send in the Army, not enough problems, send in the Army. When that is the solution to every problem you are in a society that will have extreme problems.
I wouldn't have to wish for it, your actions would most likely bring it all by itself, if I wished you dead I could wish for a fatal accident on your own street. I want to see if your views would change.
It's one thing to be in the Army it is another thing to be in the Army in a time of war.

No I am not - How did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[MHz]

You mentioned it. that made me think it was important in some way. Another sign that things are not going so well is that I am pretty much it when it comes to who responds to your posts, for the most part. lol How big a sign do you need? The bigger stick syndrome might not be as productive as other methods that are available (in the longrun and in the interest of everybody).

 

[petros]

I'm not an expert in Judaism. But I know enough to say that Judaism is a religion of peace and tolerance. One of the fundamental principles of Judaism is that Jews cannot use force to occupy their ancestral homeland or God will punish them. I doubt God would approve of the changes Zionist criminals have imposed by force on the region.

The Zionists treat Jews the same way they do Muslim or Christian Palestinians.

YouTube - Zionist Thugs Beating Up Jewish Rabbis

Remember that Jesus guy?

Who did he give his life defending and from whom was he defending the Jews from?

Arabs? Rome? Persians? Tax collectors? Date rapers (thieves who stole dates from date orchards)?

Nope. It was corrupt Rabbis, bankers and temple support staff who didn't follow the laws of Moses.

Jesus was the most anti-Zionist (anti-Pharisaical) person in history.

Pharisees and todays Pharisaical Zionists were spawned out of Alchemy and Astrology and are not at all part of Judaism.

Forchrissakes!!!

It's time to accept the reality of who these people are and properly worship as God demanded through Moses and his only Son who was slaughtered by theses al Khemical Pharsaical/Zionist bastards.

If you don't, God is gonna be really really pissed come judgement.

 

[Goober]

You mentioned it. that made me think it was important in some way. Another sign that things are not going so well is that I am pretty much it when it comes to who responds to your posts, for the most part. lol How big a sign do you need? The bigger stick syndrome might not be as productive as other methods that are available (in the longrun and in the interest of everybody).

Yes I was in the Military and funny thing is Soldiers are not hot and heavy about going to War - when they do they go to win - we - Canada- went to many countries ill equipped and poorly trained -I belive in the 2 State solution and yes I understand that the Israelis have cut up Gaza like swiss cheese - But from what I understand the on and off negotiations are within a few percentage points, regarding land - exchanges, swaps etc -
But Israel does not recognize the right of return - and I agree - simple demographics - and Jerusalem as a divided capital -

 

[darkbeaver]

Israelis do not negotiate, they prevaricate, interminably.

 

[petros]

I belive in the 2 State solution and yes I understand that the Israelis have cut up Gaza like swiss cheese - But from what I understand the on and off negotiations are within a few percentage points, regarding land - exchanges, swaps etc -
But Israel does not recognize the right of return - and I agree - simple demographics - and Jerusalem as a divided capital -

If you added in Christians and Atheists to the equation, Jerusalem could transform from a "two headed beast" to a "four headed beast".

Where have I heard of multi headed beasts before? Are you sure this is something you wish to have created?