Is Conservative Government Guilty Of War Crimes?

[SirJosephPorter]

A good start would be within those military documents..

I believe the Red Cross also had some information..

I am willing to forgo Amnesty International's information but the above two would be a good start.

As well as looking into the prison in Afghanistan if it is required, but truthfully I think our own documents would not even require us to go that far..

There are plenty of places where one could look for facts. What conservatives here are saying is that there is no need to look for facts, they are not interested in facts; the Messiah really should sweep it under the rug.

Quite a contrast from what they were arguing during the sponsorship scandal. All the crap about transparent government, clean government, holding the politicians accountable, which sounds so good, so noble when the party one does not like (Liberals) is in power, goes right out the window when the party one supports (Conservative) is in power.

 

[JLM]

I see, so you were not really able to answer my question, did you argue the same way during Liberal scandal, did you say let us not hold the politicians accountable (as you are evidently saying now). What you launched was a lengthy, rambling filibuster.

So I can only conclude that while you were all for holding the Liberal politicians accountable (during the sponsorship scandal), you don’t really think there is any need to hold the conservatives accountable, you have bigger fish to fry.

I got my answer, thanks.

Ummmm S.J. - you really don't read very well. I said that the Sponsorship scandal had more to do with BUREAUCRATS than politicians. NO I don't recall holding the LIberals responsible. YOu just don't seem to understand that between Liberals and Conservatives I HAVE NO PREFERENCE. All I say is we may as well keep Harper for a couple more years and then I couldn't care less who gets in.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

The sad truth about Afghanistan is that many of us supported a war that should have been quick to get rid of Osama and his merry men the Taliban..

Speaking of which, why does Osama still walk the planet ? Why could we find Saddam in a small hole in the ground yet we cannot find a much older man whether it be in Mountains or even cities in which he moves in quite freely ?

I think Afghanistan war was a good idea Francis, and I still think so. I think Canada was right to support USA in correcting the great injustice that was done to USA (the 9/11 attacks).

At the same time, I never subscribed to the Bush/Darth Vader/Harper philosophy that torture is sometimes justified and that they will decide when it is justified. In my opinion, torture is never justified, and if it turns out that Canada was indirectly responsible for torturing both innocent and guilty parties, the politicians should be held accountable.

 

[lone wolf]

I see, so you were not really able to answer my question, did you argue the same way during Liberal scandal, did you say let us not hold the politicians accountable (as you are evidently saying now). What you launched was a lengthy, rambling filibuster.

So I can only conclude that while you were all for holding the Liberal politicians accountable (during the sponsorship scandal), you don’t really think there is any need to hold the conservatives accountable, you have bigger fish to fry.

I got my answer, thanks.

Somehow, I believe you'd construct your own answer from bits of trash and balls of manure anyhow....

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Speaking of which, why does Osama still walk the planet ? Why could we find Saddam in a small hole in the ground yet we cannot find a much older man whether it be in Mountains or even cities in which he moves in quite freely ?

That is easy Francis, Bush and Osama had a symbiotic relationship, they fed off each other. Bush was good for terrorist recruitment as far as Osama was concerned. Osama was good for Bush in scaring Americans at home and persuading them to vote for him and the Republicans. Indeed, one of the reasons why Bush won the second term was that people were scared to death of Osama. If Bush had captured Osama during his first term, it is questionable indeed if he would have won the second term.

So the two had a mutually beneficial relationship.

 

[JLM]

I think Afghanistan war was a good idea Francis, and I still think so. I think Canada was right to support USA in correcting the great injustice that was done to USA (the 9/11 attacks).

At the same time, I never subscribed to the Bush/Darth Vader/Harper philosophy that torture is sometimes justified and that they will decide when it is justified. In my opinion, torture is never justified, and if it turns out that Canada was indirectly responsible for torturing both innocent and guilty parties, the politicians should be held accountable.

I doubt like hell if Bush/Harper spent a lot of time establishing torture protocol.

 

[Francis2004]

Good question, Francis, why is he still walking the planet?

Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that he is revered by fanatics all over the middle east who with or without a bribe would be only too willing to protect him. Or that he has money up the ying-yang with which to bribe all those scumbag terrorist bungholes. Maybe it is the fact that the taliban despite the UN Armed Forces best efforts still hold the territory near the Pakistan/Afghan border where there are no roads to speak of and the terrain is mountainous and riddled with caves wherein the little twerp could easily hide out for years. As far as travelling around in cities, how in heck do you know this??? And, if he is how hard would it be to disguise himself? I am sure there are other reasons he has not yet been caught, but these are the few that come to mind.


But then, that's just my opinion.

Answering a question with a question gives no answer..

IMO Osama was never intended to be captured.. He was more valuable free then captured as the rumour goes.. This would make a lot of sense as Saddam Hussein was found in a small hole in the ground..

CNN.com - Saddam 'caught like a rat' in a hole - Dec. 15, 2003

Someone is always willing to be bought for the right price.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I doubt like hell if Bush/Harper spent a lot of time establishing torture protocol.

Perhaps not, but I think Darth Vader and his minions are on record as saying that torture may be justified in some circumstances (I don’t know about Bush). Darth Vader was the real power behind Bush presidency (just as Joan of Arc would have been the real power behind McCain presidency).

Bush and Harper gave implicit agreement.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Answering a question with a question gives no answer..

IMO Osama was never intended to be captured.. He was more valuable free then captured as the rumour goes.. This would make a lot of sense as Saddam Hussein was found in a small hole in the ground..

CNN.com - Saddam 'caught like a rat' in a hole - Dec. 15, 2003

Someone is always willing to be bought for the right price.

Quite so, Bush and Osama were good for each other. Now that it has changed (I hardly think Osama would be good for Obama), it would be interesting to see if Osama is captured whle Obama is the presidnet.

 

[CentreBlock]

I disagree with much of what the Conservative Party does, but War Criminals? Really?

For the opposition parties this isn't going to get the back into power - Canadians are too concerned about their next pay cheque and providing Christmas gifts for their loved ones.

I'm not saying we don't look into allegations - but its crystal clear that no Canadian (either Military or civilian) took part into torturing Afghanis. Would you rather us detain people here?

This is a Afghan problem.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I disagree with much of what the Conservative Party does, but War Criminals? Really?

For the opposition parties this isn't going to get the back into power - Canadians are too concerned about their next pay cheque and providing Christmas gifts for their loved ones.

I'm not saying we don't look into allegations - but its crystal clear that no Canadian (either Military or civilian) took part into torturing Afghanis. Would you rather us detain people here?

This is a Afghan problem.

It is very much a Canadian problem if Canadian government knowingly handed over the prisoners to Afghan government knowing fully well that they may be tortured.

As to opposition getting into power, are you saying that government must be held accountable only if it is going to lead to the fall of government (and that if government cannot be removed from power, they should be given free rein to do pretty much as they wish)? That seems to be a very strange attitude.

 

[CentreBlock]

It is not what I suggested, I definetly said this needs to get looked into. However, I reject the premise that the Canadian Forces handed over prisoners, knowing for a fact they would be tortured. I don't deny that Afghanistan's government probably did.

But should this be the dominant issue in our national political discussion? Is this really the topic that the opposition should be arguing constantly in the House of Commons? Do we as a people and a nation not have more immediate and pressing issues to deal with?

I care about Human Rights; but I care about my next pay cheque as well, and one is far more immediate to mine and most Canadians lives. Foreign governments abusing prisoners isn't great, but it won't mean anything when we can't afford to come to their aid or provide our military to protect them.

I care about Human Rights; but I care about my enviroment, and Human Rights won't matter should the advocates for cap and trade are right and our climate changes in catastrophic ways.

I care about Human Rights; but it doesn't affect my daily life, it's horrible I know, But I want my politicans taking care of me (and us) first. We give so much to the world - including the lives of our bravest - maybe I just want my politicans to take care of me and my neighbours first.

 

[Mowich]

Answering a question with a question gives no answer..

IMO Osama was never intended to be captured.. He was more valuable free then captured as the rumour goes.. This would make a lot of sense as Saddam Hussein was found in a small hole in the ground..

CNN.com - Saddam 'caught like a rat' in a hole - Dec. 15, 2003

Someone is always willing to be bought for the right price.

We are all entitled to our fantasies. ;-)

 

[Mowich]

It is not what I suggested, I definetly said this needs to get looked into. However, I reject the premise that the Canadian Forces handed over prisoners, knowing for a fact they would be tortured. I don't deny that Afghanistan's government probably did.

But should this be the dominant issue in our national political discussion? Is this really the topic that the opposition should be arguing constantly in the House of Commons? Do we as a people and a nation not have more immediate and pressing issues to deal with?

I care about Human Rights; but I care about my next pay cheque as well, and one is far more immediate to mine and most Canadians lives. Foreign governments abusing prisoners isn't great, but it won't mean anything when we can't afford to come to their aid or provide our military to protect them.


I care about Human Rights; but I care about my enviroment, and Human Rights won't matter should the advocates for cap and trade are right and our climate changes in catastrophic ways.

I care about Human Rights; but it doesn't affect my daily life, it's horrible I know, But I want my politicans taking care of me (and us) first. We give so much to the world - including the lives of our bravest - maybe I just want my politicans to take care of me and my neighbours first.

:salute: ccasion5:

Well written, well composed, very well said. I salute you, CentreBlock.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

It is not what I suggested, I definetly said this needs to get looked into. However, I reject the premise that the Canadian Forces handed over prisoners, knowing for a fact they would be tortured. I don't deny that Afghanistan's government probably did.

And on what basis do you reject the premise if we don’t know the answer? Do you belong to the Conservative Party? If you do, I will understand, then the Conservatives can do no wrong, and it is easy to see why you would reject such a premise out of hand. But barring that, what is your basis to assume that Conservatives would not hand prisoners to Afghanistan knowing that they would be tortured?

But should this be the dominant issue in our national political discussion? Is this really the topic that the opposition should be arguing constantly in the House of Commons? Do we as a people and a nation not have more immediate and pressing issues to deal with?

Certainly it should be the dominant issue, until we get some sort of answers from the government.

I care about Human Rights; but I care about my next pay cheque as well, and one is far more immediate to mine and most Canadians lives. Foreign governments abusing prisoners isn't great, but it won't mean anything when we can't afford to come to their aid or provide our military to protect them.

As to that Conservatives will tell you that Harper has that well in hand, your next paycheck is safe, according to Conservatives. So the torture issue achieves prominence.

I care about Human Rights; but I care about my enviroment, and Human Rights won't matter should the advocates for cap and trade are right and our climate changes in catastrophic ways.

As to that Conservatives will tell you that there isn’t a snowball's chance in Hell that anything will be done to improve the environment, not if Conservatives have anything to say in the matter. Since they are the government, it follows that nothing will be done to improve the environment, nothing will be done against the wishes of Alberta oil patch or the wishes of the religious right.

I care about Human Rights; but it doesn't affect my daily life, it's horrible I know, But I want my politicians taking care of me (and us) first. We give so much to the world - including the lives of our bravest - maybe I just want my politicians to take care of me and my neighbours first.

Again, Conservatives will tell you that they are doing that in spade, there is nothing to worry about economy or indeed anything else while they are in power.

Your reasons not to look into the scandal just don’t add up.

 

[lone wolf]

Potty ... put away the label maker.

 

[CentreBlock]

And on what basis do you reject the premise if we don’t know the answer? Do you belong to the Conservative Party? If you do, I will understand, then the Conservatives can do no wrong, and it is easy to see why you would reject such a premise out of hand. But barring that, what is your basis to assume that Conservatives would not hand prisoners to Afghanistan knowing that they would be tortured?

I'm not a member of any party; nor have I ever voted Conservative. If I had the chance, might have voted PC; but they don't exist anymore.

Why do you equate Conservatives with the Canadian Forces?

Since the rest of your responses seem to make the incorrect assumption I support the Conservative position on Human Rights, the Economy, and the Environment, I'm hardly inclined to respond to them.

Except that to the average Canadian, the issue of jobs and the economy are by far their most pressing concerns. Selfish? Yes. Completely understandable? Absolutely.

 

[JLM]

"Why do you equate Conservatives with the Canadian Forces?"

Funny you should say that. Just goes to show how how quickly the parties change over a short span of years. It always used to be the Liberals who supported the armed forces and I remember years ago when there was a close race in an election , the Liberals almost invariably won as a result of the absentee armed forces vote, which in those days would take several days or a week to get tallied.

 

[Colpy]

"Why do you equate Conservatives with the Canadian Forces?"

Funny you should say that. Just goes to show how how quickly the parties change over a short span of years. It always used to be the Liberals who supported the armed forces and I remember years ago when there was a close race in an election , the Liberals almost invariably won as a result of the absentee armed forces vote, which in those days would take several days or a week to get tallied.

You must be talking about pre-Trudeau years.........you are an old fart, aren't you?????:smile:

 

[JLM]

You must be talking about pre-Trudeau years.........you are an old fart, aren't you?????:smile:

Yep, but still tough as nails...............................:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: