Is Conservative Government Guilty Of War Crimes?

[Francis2004]

You are completely and utterly wrong. That's not surprising though considering that most blanket statements are.

For starters, the problem with inquiries is that lawyers and judges know very little about the issues they are dealing with. Take the Somalia inquiry. Anybody with any background in the military knows you don't take a group such as the Airborne and send them on a peacekeeping mission. THAT was the mistake.

Secondly, the political system is run by the legal system. Hiring judges to investigate is like hiring Tie Domi to investigate fighting in hockey.

Thirdly, because of the public nature of the inquiries, political sensitivities always carry extra weight. Look at the Braidwood inquiry...the biggest problems on that day was the low hiring standards of the RCMP and OH&S legislation that indirectly governs the training of these officers. It was and is politically unacceptable for either the government or the police to publicly state that the officers are not competent.

Fourthly, the set up by their very nature make inquiries a poor way to uncover problems. By making it about "who" is responsible, the ass covering begins as soon as the word inquiry is uttered publicly. A lot can be learned from the NTSB. When airline crashes are investigated, they are less concerned about afixing blame and instead, are more interested in how or what to change to make the event less likely in the future.

What we really need is somebody outside of the issue to do an investigation...somebody not involved with government, the legal system or the military. Doing it publically tends to make those with important things to say clam up.

Public inquiries are about the system.. Of course they are run by Lawyers, Judges and the court system as that is what our Parliamentary system is based on.. What kind of independent outside person would you want to review the process ?

Asking Tie Domi to investigate fighting in Hockey would be the best to stop fighting if you asked him to do so in the appropriate way. It is not what you ask Tie to investigate that is the issue but rather what you want from him. Just like asking hackers to protect your computer system from other hackers.

Most Inquiry had issues because people do the ass covering before the Inquiry starts. The Inquiry is tainted way before the process starts.. That would be no different if you had an independent outside person.. The problem with the process is that it is much easier to bias and independent person then a full inquiry and in most inquiries we have always had some truth come out in some form.

I tend to disagree that doing a public versus closed door investigation offers more information. There is no statistical proof that people discuss such topic more open in closed doors versus public scenarios so its a moot point..

The last issue we have in this case is that the Government would block all documents relating to Military issues due to NATO related security clearances that would make this independent investigation totally useless.. Any investigation would get Zero documentation..

 

[Francis2004]

Apathy, how? Fixing past wrongs is just more formidable than being vigilant and using past knowledge to guard against future wrongs. Inquiries just open the gate for more corruption and giving opportunites for the likes of sleazy lawyers etc.

So your solution is to just let any Government do what ever it pleases ?

 

[JLM]

So your solution is to just let any Government do what ever it pleases ?

Sorry, I guess it's just slipped my mind that I said that. Mea culpa.

 

[JLM]

"Hiring judges to investigate is like hiring Tie Domi to investigate fighting in hockey."- Maybe not such a bad idea. I bet you could get an accurate answer as to the names of every player he's beat up. LOL

 

[Colpy]

You know, in a sane world the government would simply admit "serious mistakes have been made", immediately move to remedy them as I outlined below.......and not bother with an inquiry, having already confessed.

No more prisoners taken by the Canadians would be tortured, the Afghans involved might be in a position to learn that torture is counter-productive, and the political furor would blow over in a matter of days..... all would be well.

But this is not a sane world. First of all, the Conservatives would never dream of admitting such a thing.....(neither would any other politician).

secondly, the left would want every body on the gov't side arrested for "war crimes"

Too bad....really.

 

[Colpy]

Which brings me to the debate I wanted to inspire earlier;

Do you think it is possible to fight and win a war....especially a counter-insurgency.....without commiting what the left so readily calls "war crimes"?????

 

[Spade]

Lawrie Hahn, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence, interviewed on CBC's The House this morning, suggested that the Government was acting less than admirably on this issue because the Opposition was hounding the Government. Lawrie, that is the duty of the Opposition.

The untoward "shooting the messenger"is a disservice to Canada's reputation! Fess up, admit that Colvin's warnings were ignored, and promise to amend the problem!

By the by, if this were the Liberals' or the NDP's screw up, the Conservative attack dogs would be braying incessantly!

 

[JLM]

"By the by, if this were the Liberals' or the NDP's screw up, the Conservative attack dogs would be braying incessantly!"- YEP, just more evidence that ALL political parties are tarred with the same brush. Sad bunch aren't they??????

 

[Francis2004]

Colpy

You know, in a sane world the government would simply admit "serious mistakes have been made", immediately move to remedy them as I outlined below.......and not bother with an inquiry, having already confessed.

Agreed

No more prisoners taken by the Canadians would be tortured, the Afghans involved might be in a position to learn that torture is counter-productive, and the political furor would blow over in a matter of days..... all would be well.

This would be the hope..

But this is not a sane world. First of all, the Conservatives would never dream of admitting such a thing.....(neither would any other politician).

The issue is that the house voted and both Liberal and Conservatives sided on extending the mission till 2011.. Don't be so blind as to think only Con's are the only ones guilty here. John Manley was over there and was involved in reviewing Canada's position in Afghanistan. What was his involvement in this ?

secondly, the left would want every body on the gov't side arrested for "war crimes"

So what if everything is counted. If the left was in power the right would want the same..

 

[Francis2004]

By the by, if this were the Liberals' or the NDP's screw up, the Conservative attack dogs would be braying incessantly!

Of course they would. Its the job of the opposition to do so..

 

[Cannuck]

Which brings me to the debate I wanted to inspire earlier;

Do you think it is possible to fight and win a war....especially a counter-insurgency.....without commiting what the left so readily calls "war crimes"?????

Yes.

 

[CDNBear]

Yes.

Only if you're populace is fully committed.

 

[pgs]

The decision to support Afghanistan operation was the right one, pgs. Supporting Iraq invasion would have been the wrong thing to do. And if your Messiah had been the PM when Bush invaded Iraq, we would be mired in Iraq today to the hilt. Chrétien had the astuteness and farsightedness to stay out of Iraq.

But the decision to get involved in Afghanistan was the right decision.

There is only one Messiah .His name is Jesus Christ,you should learn about him.
I said nothing about Iraq ,I simply stated correctly that WE are in Afganistan because the Liberal Gov"t of the time sent us there.
Can you dispute that?

 

[earth_as_one]

Which brings me to the debate I wanted to inspire earlier;

Do you think it is possible to fight and win a war....especially a counter-insurgency.....without commiting what the left so readily calls "war crimes"?????

In the case of Afghanistan, its the only way we could have won. By handing innocent Afghans over for torture and abuse, we indirectly aided and abetted the enemy. Why do you think insurgent support has grown over the last couple of years?

Canada's soldiers must respect the rules of war. If they don't, then Canadians have a responsibility to ensure they face the consequences.

 

[earth_as_one]

Apathy, how? Fixing past wrongs is just more formidable than being vigilant and using past knowledge to guard against future wrongs. Inquiries just open the gate for more corruption and giving opportunites for the likes of sleazy lawyers etc.

An inquiry when done right is about uncovering the truth, which is never a bad thing. Without inquiries, its far more difficult to learn the truth and as a result learn from our mistakes.

BTW, how do you feel about murder trials? Are they really necessary? Or should we not give opportunities for lawyers to be sleazy and instead become vigilant and use past knowledge to guard against future wrongs.

 

[Liberalman]

There is only one Messiah .His name is Jesus Christ,you should learn about him.
I said nothing about Iraq ,I simply stated correctly that WE are in Afganistan because the Liberal Gov"t of the time sent us there.
Can you dispute that?

Yes the Liberals sent the troops in for rebuilding like the rest of the NATO military

But the Conservative government changed it to a combat mission because Harper wanted to be invited back to the Bush Jr. ranch

 

[Colpy]

In the case of Afghanistan, its the only way we could have won. By handing innocent Afghans over for torture and abuse, we indirectly aided and abetted the enemy. Why do you think insurgent support has grown over the last couple of years?

Canada's soldiers must respect the rules of war. If they don't, then Canadians have a responsibility to ensure they face the consequences.

Perhaps I should have said "Can any western country win a war with out being accused of war crimes?"

And I don't think our soldiers are getting away with anything........I remember the sniper disciplined for sticking a sign on a Taliban corpse he had shot.....the sign said "f*&k terrorism".

And the Canadian arrested and charged with murder for finishing off a severely wounded Taliban.....too severely wounded to be treated on the spot......in other words, dying. Very possibly an act of mercy.

The first instance was completely ridiculous, in my view.

The second, wellll, I wasn't there. People die in war.

It is a war.....if you want something pretty, go to the ballet.

 

[earth_as_one]

There is only one Messiah .His name is Jesus Christ,you should learn about him.
I said nothing about Iraq ,I simply stated correctly that WE are in Afganistan because the Liberal Gov"t of the time sent us there.
Can you dispute that?

The Liberals did decided to sent troops to Afghanistan. It was right after 9/11. The people responsible for that attack were in Afghanistan at the time.

Back then, Afghanistan was a failed state suffering decades of constant civil war. The winning faction in that war, the Taliban, protected the people responsible for 9/11. We joined the US invasion in attempt to bring the people responsible for 9/11 to justice. That mission was only a partial success.

Since then we have become stuck supporting the loosing side of the civil war. Our presence in Afghanistan is no longer related to 9/11. Our current Afghan adversaries had nothing to do with 9/11.

But we changed our focus. The new mission became liberating Afghans (especially women) and bringing Democracy to this country. Since then, the Afghan legislature has passed highly oppressive laws reducing the rights of women and the last election was a complete sham. Our PM congratulated the winner of that corrupt election, proving we've abandoned that mission too.

Currently our new mission in Afghanistan appears to be propping up an unpopular pro-west dictator and helping the Afghan government oppress its people by various methods including handing over innocent people to the Afghan government for torture and abuse.

The upper levels of the Canadian military as well as the Conservative government appear to have turned a blind eye to this illegal activity. This practice has been going on for years. Very likely the Liberals did the same thing when they were in power.

That leaves the NDP.

 

[Francis2004]

Yes the Liberals sent the troops in for rebuilding like the rest of the NATO military

But the Conservative government changed it to a combat mission because Harper wanted to be invited back to the Bush Jr. ranch

Not trued LM..

Paul Martin was already shifting the mission to combat before Harper took over.

 

[Liberalman]

Not trued LM..

Paul Martin was already shifting the mission to combat before Harper took over.

Harper did the evil deed