Will Canada sabotage climate talks?

YukonJack

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Dec 26, 2008
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"Sabotage" is a word denoting negative intentions.

Canada should point out three things:

1. The world has actually been cooling in the last - at least - ten years.
2. Warming and/or cooling is NOT caused by human activities.
3. Those who try to blame the West - seeing the deplorable CO2 emmissions by China and India - are nothing but hypocrites.

That would be a good start.
 

YukonJack

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Dec 26, 2008
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"Jean Chretien said that signing Kyoto was a "moral obligation" but he further said that Kyoto "means nothing"."

That only proves that mentioning Chretien and morality in the same sentence - and by extention, Liberals/liberals and morality in the same sentence - is a joke.
 

Kakato

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Jun 10, 2009
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Canadians have nothing to be ashamed about when it comes to the environment and the doom and gloom global warming alarmists should read up on our environmental laws,rules and regulations before trying to lay a guilt trip on us.

We have some of the most stringent enviro laws in the world and most companies own policies and procedures are even stricter then the governments.

Those of us who have to sign and deal with environmantal permits and contractors get sick of those that dont trying to make us feel guilty.

Behind allmost every envirofoiler you will find an agenda.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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Canadians have nothing to be ashamed about when it comes to the environment and the doom and gloom global warming alarmists should read up on our environmental laws,rules and regulations before trying to lay a guilt trip on us.

So, which laws would you start with Kakato?

We have some of the most stringent enviro laws in the world and most companies own policies and procedures are even stricter then the governments.

Most? So, I take it you can provide proof of this then? What do you make of the anomalous cancer prevalence in communities inside the Athabasca watershed?

Those of us who have to sign and deal with environmantal permits and contractors get sick of those that dont trying to make us feel guilty.

Want some cheese with that whine? Boohoo, someone is trying to make you feel guilty. Other people get sick from pollution. Lets try to keep your sensitivities in perspective.

Behind allmost every envirofoiler you will find an agenda.

Duh. Behind every head in the sand luddite is an agenda. Anyone who has an opinion about policy probably has an agenda. That's not a bad thing.
 

Kakato

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So, which laws would you start with Kakato?



Most? So, I take it you can provide proof of this then? What do you make of the anomalous cancer prevalence in communities inside the Athabasca watershed?



Want some cheese with that whine? Boohoo, someone is trying to make you feel guilty. Other people get sick from pollution. Lets try to keep your sensitivities in perspective.



Duh. Behind every head in the sand luddite is an agenda. Anyone who has an opinion about policy probably has an agenda. That's not a bad thing.

I dont like envirofoilers trying to lay a guilt trip on any Canadians as its pointless and usually just fills someones pockets.

I deal with enviro peeps all the time so ya bud,I have to know the laws because I'm the guy that gets fined when they are broken or bent.

You can bring up whatever you want from the past,most of us learmed from it and improved procedures so it doesnt happen again.
You can keep beating a dead horse though,your choice.

As for kyoto,you might want to check out the ties between Martin,Moe strong and some other libs and who's pockets were going to get filled buying carbon credits(besides Al Gores) and then tell me that its not all about transferring wealth.
 

Tonington

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I dont like envirofoilers trying to lay a guilt trip on any Canadians as its pointless and usually just fills someones pockets.

And the flip side of that coin is that the folks resisting are trying to keep their pockets as full as they have been.

I deal with enviro peeps all the time so ya bud,I have to know the laws because I'm the guy that gets fined when they are broken or bent.

I don't doubt that you do, I was asking which laws you think we should start with on this subject in particular. Which ones?

You can bring up whatever you want from the past,most of us learmed from it and improved procedures so it doesnt happen again. You can keep beating a dead horse though,your choice.

I'm not beating any dead horse, just trying to get you to elaborate on what you've said.

As for kyoto,you might want to check out the ties between Martin,Moe strong and some other libs and who's pockets were going to get filled buying carbon credits(besides Al Gores) and then tell me that its not all about transferring wealth.

Who cares about Martin? Well, carbon offsets are one way that some countries tried to mitigate. It's not something I advocate for. I prefer market based solutions like a price on carbon.
 

Kakato

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Jun 10, 2009
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Unless your a farmer I dont see any laws broken as far as the Environmentel ones go,not on purpose anyways.
If anything they are too strict because of the alarmism the last few years that led to all the rules and regs.

Kyoto was and is a dead dog,peeps should be worried more about the present then something they cant control anyways like the next ice age,followed by a warm trend,then another ice age,we'll all be dead by a meteoritic impact by the time the first ice age rolls through anyways.

Environment Canada has records of all of Canadas weather stations since about 1940 something to present,if you look closely at the records you will see not much has changed.

I dont need ice core or sat. data to tell me the climate will change in the future,thats a given.
 

Trex

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Apr 4, 2007
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"The Harper government recognized last year that its plan to tackle greenhouse gas emissions was extremely weak compared to other developed countries. As such, government documents show it devised a strategy that included trying to split European Union members and tying assistance to developing countries to binding emission reduction targets as part of a bid to influence international talks. The environment minister denies he or Canada’s climate change ambassador have ever seen the documents, which were prepared by the Department of Foreign Affairs last year for Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon, Prime Minister Stephen Harper and others and obtained by the David Suzuki Foundation through Access to Information requests. However, opposition critics and environmental activists say the government’s position over the past year shows the controversial strategy was largely adopted, even if it has been ultimately unsuccessful."

Are we Sabotageurs? « Envirogy

More unfounded enviro babel and bafflegab .

I read the link, where are the quoted documents?

Harper holds a minority government.
Thus he cannot change any existing regulations without LPC support.
That has not happened.
We continue to follow Liberal Party of Canada established environmental acts and regulations.

A conspiracy involving the federal public sector is just too
tough to swallow because just about all the department staffers are Liberal appointments or union members.

In any case Canada is too small and does not carry sufficient clout to sway the much larger and more powerful EU membership.

And waiting to see what the Americans are going to do is just playing smart poker considering they plan to try to introduce as many as possible duties and tariff's on Canada under the guise of environmental stewardship.

It's all politics as usual.
Including this thread.

Trex
 

taxslave

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Nov 25, 2008
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Who cares about Martin? Well, carbon offsets are one way that some countries tried to mitigate. It's not something I advocate for. I prefer market based solutions like a price on carbon.
Carbon credits are a scam.
There are other possibly more important things to worry about than carbon that are getting ignored because carbon is the cause du jour. Simple things like being able to recycle all plastics and not have to sort them out so that when you put the wrong one in the recycle bin the collectors don't dump them on the ground in front of your driveway. Places like Victoria that dump raw sewage on the beach. Not keeping organics out of landfills. Traffic lights that are not synchronized, causing continuous lineups which adds to the CO2 as well as wasting everyones time.
 

Trex

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Apr 4, 2007
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And this gov't also cut back on scientific funding. Whether Harpy & Co. is a saboteur or not is debatable, but the government actions so far seem to point that way either deliberately or accidentally.

Good thing for private concerns that fund science, or else Canada would be a 3rd world country concerning science and development.

How did the CPC cut back on scientific funding?
Exactly where?

The vast majority of Federal scientific funding goes to the Canadian Universities that are research based institutions.

As far as I know Harper and the CPC have actually INCREASED research funding.

The research University my wife works at has received ever increasing yearly grants for scientific research and that started the year Harper was elected.

Competing for grant dollars is tough racket amongst researchers.
I don't dispute that some researchers have had their grant funding cut.
Some win ,some lose.
However the department heads my wife meets with on a regular basis all seem to be fairly happy with Federal Government research funding.

Which research institution and departments are you referring to when speak of research funding cuts?

Trex
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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How did the CPC cut back on scientific funding?
Exactly where?

The Canadian Institutes of Health Research, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council, and Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, had their budgets cut in this year's budget. Over the next three years, the premier science funding institutes in Canada will be receiving less money, while countries around the world inject stimulus funds into technology, innovation, and research.

While other countries in the world continue to see the benefit to funding science, we will continue to lose out on knowledge based economics. How do you think that will help Canada's lagging productivity? If NSERC has less money for the Irap program
, that surely doesn't help. If Canadian scientists go to other countries where they do see the value in science funding, that doesn't help.
 

Trex

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Apr 4, 2007
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The Canadian Institutes of Health Research, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council, and Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, had their budgets cut in this year's budget. Over the next three years, the premier science funding institutes in Canada will be receiving less money, while countries around the world inject stimulus funds into technology, innovation, and research.

While other countries in the world continue to see the benefit to funding science, we will continue to lose out on knowledge based economics. How do you think that will help Canada's lagging productivity? If NSERC has less money for the Irap program
, that surely doesn't help. If Canadian scientists go to other countries where they do see the value in science funding, that doesn't help.

Looks like your data doesn't seem to be quite the same as my data.

Quote:
On Tuesday, January 27th, the Harper government brought down its long-awaited budget. The Liberals indicated their support, so the coalition is dead and the Harper government alive.

One of the most worrying features of this government has been its antipathy to intellectuals and artists. As for the latter, Harper traduced artists in the last election campaign as citified types who go to a lot of cocktail parties -- and lost a lot of seats in arts-loving Quebec as a result. As far as this is concerned, the Government may have learned its lesson: 160 million is in the works for big arts festivals (and the attendant cocktail parties in big cities, one imagines). Well, good -- but it's a pity that struggling avant-garde artists won't benefit from this.

With respect to universities, the Harper record hasn't been bad. At least up until now. Paul Martin, the former Prime Minister, was a staunch believer in universities (though not necessarily a supporter of pure research in humanities) and under him, the three federal research granting councils had strong budget increases, peaking (under Harper) at around 2 billion dollars per year. This, together with such programs as the Canada Research Chairs and the Canadian Foundation for Innovation, has brought considerable excitement to Canadian universities in recent years. There's a palpable feeling of things happening.

In this week's budget, however, the news for research was quite bad. Today (January 29, 2009) the Globe and Mail reported on its front page that Genome Canada's funding from the feds had dropped to zero. This is a high-profile and high-prestige agency, and is very visible in cities like Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver, which have large medical research establishments. In the 2008 budget, Genome Canada received an increase of 140 million. Today, it's gone from the budget altogether. This seems bizarre. A 100% cut! (UPDATE: Colin Farrely points out that this story is based on a misinterpretation of how the Government funds Genome Canada. It does so by means of one-time grants, not by on-going base funding. In the last two years, Genome Canada got grants of $100m and 140m. These grants can be drawn on any time over the subsequent four years, and are still current. However, no new money came in this year.
Unquote.

Apart from this columists failure to understand block funding for the Genome
Project I agree with his assessment.

The Harper Government increased funding for science research to the highest level it has ever been.
Flaherty froze funding increases on his last budget update.
So the bottom line is still that the Granting Councils are getting the most funding ever recorded under the Harper Government.

To repeat myself the University my wife is on staff with has received very large bloc funding grants for various research projects.
The University now has received far more in research grants under the Harper Government than it ever did under a Liberal government.

So I guess I go by the the figures I see.
And you must see or hear different figures.

Trex
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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Canadians have nothing to be ashamed about when it comes to the environment and the doom and gloom global warming alarmists should read up on our environmental laws,rules and regulations before trying to lay a guilt trip on us.

We have some of the most stringent enviro laws in the world and most companies own policies and procedures are even stricter then the governments.

Those of us who have to sign and deal with environmantal permits and contractors get sick of those that dont trying to make us feel guilty.

Behind allmost every envirofoiler you will find an agenda.
Really? Check out the incidences involving sour gas in AB.

Alberta sour gas health concerns - Google Search

It's one thing to have laws regarding health and environmental issues, and another thing entirely concerning enforcing and following them.
 

Kakato

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Jun 10, 2009
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Really? Check out the incidences involving sour gas in AB.

Alberta sour gas health concerns - Google Search

It's one thing to have laws regarding health and environmental issues, and another thing entirely concerning enforcing and following them.

I know all about sour gas living next to the countries most poisonous field.
No worrys,the peeps that work around h2s are highly trained,you dont work in Alberta's patch without training for it period.

More peeps die from the cold in a week then poisoned by h2s in a year.
 

Kakato

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Jun 10, 2009
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Concerning sour gas,the safety record is actually very good considering how fast one whiff will kill you.
Most fatalities are caused by negligence because if you are even on a sour site you will be trained and have testing gear and a scott pack with you.

What really concerns us in the industry is the Wiebo Ludwig wannabes like in B.C. that think it would make a good statement against Encanna if they blew up a few risers.
I have pictures from some of those scenes and they came very close to succeeding in a major release of h2s which could have killed thousands of people if the wind was right.
The pics werent in the paper,I got them off an inspector in charge of some of that area because what some call radical environmentalism is actually terrorism and we share what info we have with each other.

I take sour gas seriously living in between the Coseka and Waterton fields.
Plus the big trans canada pipeline that feeds into BC is about 1000 meters from my house.:lol:
 

AnnaG

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Concerning sour gas,the safety record is actually very good considering how fast one whiff will kill you.
Most fatalities are caused by negligence because if you are even on a sour site you will be trained and have testing gear and a scott pack with you.

What really concerns us in the industry is the Wiebo Ludwig wannabes like in B.C. that think it would make a good statement against Encanna if they blew up a few risers.
I have pictures from some of those scenes and they came very close to succeeding in a major release of h2s which could have killed thousands of people if the wind was right.
The pics werent in the paper,I got them off an inspector in charge of some of that area because what some call radical environmentalism is actually terrorism and we share what info we have with each other.
CTV News | Alberta Gas: Battle over wells wages in pristine valley

....But it's not just beautiful views that could be ruined by the drilling of sour gas. When H2S is released into the atmosphere it's toxic and in high enough concentrations it can even be fatal. Since 2002, four oil-patch workers have been killed and 26 workers have filed disability injury claims after exposure to hydrogen sulfide gas......
.....Sour gas exposure can cause long term damage. Ten years ago, the Graf family owned a prosperous farm near the town of Vulcan in southern Alberta. In 1998, a nearby sour gas well blew, spewing the toxic chemicals down wind onto their farm and onto Darryl Graf.
Within a minute of hearing a huge roar and spotting a big flare over the well Darryl started "to get short of breath". He rushed to get back to the house and according to his mother Barbara, when he did, "he just came in and laid down on the floor."
Before the blast, Darryl was an athletic 21-year-old with a bright future in farming. Since then, Darryl has suffered from brain damage, heart problems, seizures and gastro-intestinal problems he blames on exposure to sour gas.
Fearing another exposure to sour gas could kill Darryl, the Graf family has been in a protracted dispute with the board in charge of regulating and approving new oil and gas projects, the Energy Resources Conservation Board (ERCB) in Calgary.
Fleeing their farm and moving to a trailer 20 kilometres away, they are trying to get the ERCB to stop approving wells close to their farm. But since their move, the ERCB has approved the construction of new gas wells, just a few kilometres away from the Graf's new home and they have endured more gas leaks.
While approving new developments is only part of the ERCB's mandate, the Board is also charged with protecting public safety, the environment and ensuring industry compliance.....
......Journalist and author Andrew Nikiforuk, who has written about the oil industry for 20 years, believes that the ERCB does a poor job of protecting public interest. The reason, he claims, is clear: "The board is 58 per cent funded by industry so that a regulator that is funded by the very people that it's supposed to regulate is, by very definition, a compromised agency."
I take sour gas seriously living in between the Coseka and Waterton fields.
Plus the big trans canada pipeline that feeds into BC is about 1000 meters from my house.:lol:
Good for you. I'd pack up the family and move.
But then, there are people that want to live in flood plains, near eathquake zones, tornado zones, etc.
 

Kakato

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CTV News | Alberta Gas: Battle over wells wages in pristine valley

Good for you. I'd pack up the family and move.
But then, there are people that want to live in flood plains, near eathquake zones, tornado zones, etc.
Im pretty familiar with that one as is most in the gas industry,we have "sympathy dugouts" in the budget for those farmers but some just want more.:roll:
I spent a year in Vulcan and big valley,three hills,all over Alberta building lease sites for rigs and it was all CBM wells,sour gas is mostly on the eastern slopes of the rockies and westward,where I have lived safely since 1965.;-)

Some of Albertas most vocal enviromentalists live 30 miles from me and in the whaleback,another pristine valley where someone wants big bucks for a well but fights the wells on his nieghbours property because he took the coin.
They are paid very well for a "well",they get the going rate for land for the right of way,they get royalties on the well,the right of way is eventually put back better then it was found and the land returned to the farmer with nothing but a 12 by 12 foot wellhead on his pasture.
If its a CBM well then this is all done in a week and grass is growing back in 2 weeks.

And 4 deaths since 2002 is awesome considering gas is Alberta's biggest energy export and h2s is deadly and one whiff will likely kill you.

Some peeps live in flood plains,I live next to the Frank slide in Alberta.
I sometimes watch the rocks tumble down the mountain from my computer room here.8O
 

AnnaG

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I don't care about environmentalists. I care that people are getting screwed healthwise. Keeping the planet healthy is next. We shouldn't be crapping in our crib.

And if you want to live under a sword, that's up to you.
 

Kakato

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I don't care about environmentalists. I care that people are getting screwed healthwise. Keeping the planet healthy is next. We shouldn't be crapping in our crib.

And if you want to live under a sword, that's up to you.

It's not Canadians crapping in the crib(with the exception of Vancouver) so stop with the guilt trip,maybe focus it on the real polluters of the world.

Canada's a cold country,diesel is god in most of it.
Factor that in.;-)