Harper manipulating the scientific process

[earth_as_one]

Treating addicts as criminals has failed. The war on drugs has failed. The problem has grown and festered, not improved. Makes sense to try another approach.

Recently Mexico recently changed its laws:

Heroin and cocaine now legal in Mexico – in small doses
By David Usborne
Tuesday, 25 August 2009

A controversial new law decriminalising the possession of small amounts of heroin, marijuana, cocaine and other illicit substances was quietly slipped on to the statute books in Mexico yesterday.
The move provoked little fuss either in Mexico itself or across the border in the US, which in the past has resisted anything that might be seen as going soft on drugs.


"This is not legalisation. This is regulating the issue," insisted Bernardo Espino del Castillo, the Attorney General, in an attempt to play down the significance of the new measure. The government made sure there was no fanfare or grand announcement after the law was finally passed at the end of last week.
Mexico is enmeshed in a violent war with drugs cartels and traffickers that has claimed more than 11,000 lives in the past two-and-a-half years, and it is keen to explore any new approach that might ease the situation. Officials believe that the law will ease pressure on the country's overcrowded prisons and allow police to concentrate on dealers and smugglers.


The reform will also help by taking away from ordinary police officers the discretion on whether to arrest and possibly prosecute drug users – a prerogative that has encouraged shakedowns of citizens and corruption.


However, it is also with at least half an eye towards America that the law has been signed. Many in Mexico believe that their northern neighbour would do well to reassess its own ultra-prohibitionist approach to drug use, particularly concerning marijuana, sales of which provide roughly two-thirds of the cartels' profits....


Heroin and cocaine now legal in Mexico – in small doses - Americas, World - The Independent

BTW, I disagree with the above. Simply decriminalizing possession of small amounts of contraband drugs alone isn't sufficient and will not likely reduce of eliminate the violence and crime associated with drug use.


The problem is that production and distribution remains in the hands of unscrupulous people motivated by greed. The law must also be changed so that the people producing and distributing these drugs are motivated by a desire to reduce harm to society and the individual. In other words a government ministry/bureacracy ran by scientists and health professionals.

Here is another viewpoint:
http://blog.norml.org/2009/08/21/new-york-times-mexico-legalizes-drug-possession-well-not-exactly/

 

[Unforgiven]

Yep, which is why I applaud Harpo and company for their stance on this one.

Of course and when you come to find that you're wrong in that you will say "oh well, my bad" but people are hurt more by the criminalization than by the addiction. Supporting that supports undue harm to people who are ill rather than guilty. Is it really different than slapping elderly people in nursing homes for peeing themselves?

:lol: Stats are manipulated facts.

Yet with Insite's collection of facts showing harm reduction works, you choose to ignore them for the method the facts show doesn't work. What do you call that?

And the fact that thye wish to act in contrary to the criminal code. I think I'll stick with my opinion.

If people are acting contrary to the criminal code willfully and to the point that the criminal code can no longer be enforced then there is a problem with the criminal code. You might as well make AIDS illegal for all the good it will do you.

:lol:, there'ld be fewer strays.

No there wouldn't. People would just skip the spay and neuter job while others suffer from the illness brought on by the pile of dead dogs at the bottom of the cliff.

The war on drugs is a failure. Like Viet Nam, it's been fought for all the wrong reasons by the wrong people in the wrong way. It has never worked, and it never will work. Insite has shown that harm reduction is the best way to deal with the problem. It should be adjusted for specifics and spread across the land without hesitation. The cries of the fools who oppose Insite like Harper and his hateful group of "my worlders" need to go so a real government that will act progressive toward problem solving can get started.

 

[TenPenny]

The cries of the fools who oppose Insite like Harper and his hateful group of "my worlders" need to go so a real government that will act progressive toward problem solving can get started.

I think the problem is to define the problem being solved.

Your perspective must be that the drug use is not the problem, because you are not proposing anything to reduce or stop that. Others think that the drug use is the problem, and want to aim at that.

 

[Cannuck]

Treating addicts as criminals has failed.

Says who? It seems to me that failure would depend entirely on the goal. If the goal is to treat them like criminals then the policies have been a great success. If the goal is to end drug use, then they have been a miserable failure. Of course, I seriously doubt that the goal is an end to drug use.

 

[Unforgiven]

I think the problem is to define the problem being solved.

Your perspective must be that the drug use is not the problem, because you are not proposing anything to reduce or stop that. Others think that the drug use is the problem, and want to aim at that.

Good luck with that. The reasons people become addicted to hard drugs are as varied as they people themselves. The bottom line is pain. Whether physical or mental nothing kills the pain like Heroin. Not that it isn't there anymore, it is but it just doesn't matter anymore.

So be my guest, solve poverty, humiliation, anger, disenfranchise, hate and all the rest of these maladies along with pain and your good to go. But until there is no want for drugs, you're not going to win anything with the stick. If the market is there it will be filled by those who have way more money than the government, a much much larger army of employees and a constant supply of people way smarter than LEO ever will be.

Insite isn't going to stop importation of drugs, or drug use among the population. What it does do though is prevents people who use the site from dying of an over dose, reduces the infection rate of the IV drug users and is there at the moment someone has their moment of clarity with support and information to kick the addiction.

Why is preventing an over dose, reducing infection and being the means that someone uses to end an addiction to IV drugs so god damn bad?

 

[TenPenny]

is there at the moment someone has their moment of clarity with support and information to kick the addiction.

Yeah, like that ever happens.

dream on, captain.

In my view, the only purpose Insite serves is to give addicts a nice place to shoot up. Period.

 

[earth_as_one]

Says who? It seems to me that failure would depend entirely on the goal. If the goal is to treat them like criminals then the policies have been a great success. If the goal is to end drug use, then they have been a miserable failure. Of course, I seriously doubt that the goal is an end to drug use.

Wow we agree. That's rare.

 

[darkbeaver]

What's wrong with a nice managed place to shoot up? The alternative is expensive places to clean up, including very expensive prisons like the USA. Addictions are normal and stable diseases quite predictable so they can be managed far more efficiently then they can be stamped out. I wonder which scenario is more lucrative to private special interest groups?

 

[DurkaDurka]

The BC government should hire the junkies as Vancouver ambassadors for the upcoming Olympics, put a nice face to the city.

 

[earth_as_one]

Yeah, like that ever happens.(addicts getting off drugs)

dream on, captain.

In my view, the only purpose Insite serves is to give addicts a nice place to shoot up. Period.

Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous both have many members which have successfully kicked their habits, or at least remained drug free over the long term.

Our Vision

Every addict in the world has the chance to experience our message in his or her own language and culture and find the opportunity for a new way of life.

This section contains information about Narcotics Anonymous aimed at professionals in various fields, potential members, and non-addict family members or those seeking basic info....

This section provides general information to our members, including a wide variety of links to all areas of support offered to the NA Fellowship. Some functions require log-in access....

This area will help you find a local meeting via the NAWS database or a variety of local resources. Also included is some basic information about NA meetings...

www.NA.org - the website for the Fellowship of Narcotics Anonymous

NA and AA aren't "experimental". These programs have a proven track record of success.

 

[TenPenny]

AA has a much lower success rate than they would have you believe.

 

[earth_as_one]

AA and NA acknowledge they can't help everyone. People have to go through a process and many people fail.

But these organizations have helped literally millions of people. I know people personally who quit their addictions thanks in part to the support they got from AA and NA.

 

[Unforgiven]

Yeah, like that ever happens.

dream on, captain.

Yeah it happens. For some too late to prevent them from suffering an early death from Hep C or HIV/Aids or infections.

In my view, the only purpose Insite serves is to give addicts a nice place to shoot up. Period.

As opposed to someone's store front, playgrounds, parks, back alleys and washrooms?

Is that what you prefer?

Seems to me that the biggest gripe anyone opposing Insite has is that they think someone is getting something. Like if your neighbor won the lottery you would poison his dog just to teach him a lesson. Honestly how many times do you have to kick someone when they're down before it's enough?

 

[Unforgiven]

The BC government should hire the junkies as Vancouver ambassadors for the upcoming Olympics, put a nice face to the city.

What and leave the Pedophiles out in the cold?

 

[DurkaDurka]

What and leave the Pedophiles out in the cold?

I think they are booked for the little league world series. :x

 

[TenPenny]

Honestly how many times do you have to kick someone when they're down before it's enough?

How many times do you have to assist someone in the self- and society- destroying behaviour, before it's enough?

One advantage of maritime winters - at least there are a few months when the street addicts go away, ususally to Vancouver.

 

[Unforgiven]

How many times do you have to assist someone in the self- and society- destroying behaviour, before it's enough?

Until you are successful. I never consider something like an addiction to be society destroying. More often it's a product of a broken society.

One advantage of maritime winters - at least there are a few months when the street addicts go away, ususally to Vancouver.

I bet if you investigated you would find that they never went away. Just out of sight.

The point is, and the proof is mounting with places like Insite, that you can't solve this problem with the stick. Only through care and rehabilitation will most addicts be able to recover and build for themselves a stable lifestyle that is productive and lasting.

 

[L Gilbert]

.........

TheStar.com | Opinion | Harper manipulating the scientific process

Some other recent examples of unfriendly Harper Government actions concerning science and scientists:

-appointing unqualified pro-industry persons to federal science bodies.

-censoring government scientists.

-insinuating that medical doctors who work at the clinic lack ethics.

-axing the national science adviser position.

Should I bring up the falling budget devoted to R&D and Canada's lagging productivity numbers as well?

All things considered, I can't remember any Canadian government being particularly friendly to the R&D community. Harpy seems to be just following tradition and joining the previous jacka$$es.

 

[L Gilbert]

Until you are successful. I never consider something like an addiction to be society destroying. More often it's a product of a broken society.

Yep. Our society isn't very healthy. But sociteies only reflect their members so we aren't doing very well either. As a community, we are a disaster.

I bet if you investigated you would find that they never went away. Just out of sight.

They disappear for the most part in Vancouver, too.

The point is, and the proof is mounting with places like Insite, that you can't solve this problem with the stick. Only through care and rehabilitation will most addicts be able to recover and build for themselves a stable lifestyle that is productive and lasting.

Stopgap remedies treating symptims don't cure problems. The root of the problem is our society and our attitudes.

 

[Trex]

Harm reduction is an obvious health care issue.
Health care is a Provincial jurisdiction.

What do the Fed's have to do with it in the first place?
And why are they interfering in areas of Provincial responsibilty and control?
If there is Fed funding involved then every community in Confederation should recieve matching funding.
Which would be idiotic.

Insite should be left to the City of Vancouver, the Province of BC and more importantly the voters of BC.
It's their jurisdiction and responsibility.
If they choose to fund Insite in Vancouver, so be it.

Trex