A fifth of European Union will be Muslim by 2050

petros

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What was the reason the first settlers came to North America to escape in Europe?

Oh yeah. Religious persecution.
 

SirJosephPorter

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What was the reason the first settlers came to North America to escape in Europe?

Oh yeah. Religious persecution.

Indeed. And they set up a regime here in North America worse than anything they had encountered in Europe. In addition to the near extermination of aboriginals, they gave us such gems as Salem witch hunts. And of course, there were the old standbys, racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, even anti-Catholicism.

The Puritans were hardly better than the Europeans they left behind. If anything, they were worse.
 

petros

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Maybe arthritic bavarians should do the opposite and move to Morroco or Cairo. Cairo is a cool place with a mix of everybody all with the same goal...make across the street on foot alive. It is a beautiful city and would be very cheap and easy on der bones to live.
 

Machjo

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Machjo, Extrafire makes a good point, though not for the reason that he thinks. Christians, Europeans were extremely nasty to aboriginals (giving them small pox infested blankets and so on).

I see your point. However, they are still not equal in the sense that the Europeans imposed themselves on the First Nations, whereas Muslims in Europe are entering legally, under the full control of European laws, are born in Europe and trace their Muslim family history in Europe back generations, or are converts. How does that compare with the First Nations?

Indeed, that part of North American history could reasonably be compared to the Dark Ages in Europe, both were equally nasty, vicious and intolerant. So Islam does not have the monopoly on intolerance, Christians can match them fully well, point by point.

Both Islam and Christianity have had their Dark Ages and Golden Ages. Islamic Golden Age gave rise to science, philosophy, poetry etc. There is the immortal Omar Khayyam, and his Rubaiyat (I have read a book of English translation of some of the Rubaiyat). He has written plenty of poetry extolling the virtues of alcohol.

What Europe will be like in 50 years or 100 years nobody knows, it is purely speculation. They may be majority Islam, have Sharia and Islamic Dark Ages, or they may have a rise of extreme Christianity and may have another Christian Dark Age, who knows. My hope is that it continues to be the same tolreant, progressive society that it is today.

Or they may undergo a second Chrsitian Renaissance, or a Muslim Renaissance, or even another religion could supplant both of them. Yes, it is pure speculation.
 

petros

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Maybe just maybe propaganda has the bull**** piled so high that you only think this will be a problem when in reality it is nothing to fear?
 

Machjo

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Oh yes, by the way, one possible contender for PM of Palestine and a sympathiser of the Hizbullah, happens to be... wait for this... a Christian... a Catholic at that. I forget his name, but I'll try to find it.

So much for those Muslim boogeymen, huh?
 

Tonington

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All that is so except the Sharia Law bit. That is completely outside the linear development of Western jurisprudence. And there is a big difference, a complete reorientation of the social contract.

Sharia law is incompatible with the Canadian Charter of rights and Freedoms, at least the parts that limit political freedoms and gender equality, which is typically the laws that most xenophobes tell us are coming our way. Those cannot even be side stepped by the Notwithstanding clause.

So, don't worry about it.
 

Machjo

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Sharia law is incompatible with the Canadian Charter of rights and Freedoms, at least the parts that limit political freedoms and gender equality, which is typically the laws that most xenophobes tell us are coming our way. Those cannot even be side stepped by the Notwithstanding clause.

So, don't worry about it.

Add to that that there are also progressive interpretations of Shari'a that exist too.

They may not guarantee women equality as such, but don't deny it either, thus essentially making them compatible with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Sharia law is incompatible with the Canadian Charter of rights and Freedoms, at least the parts that limit political freedoms and gender equality, which is typically the laws that most xenophobes tell us are coming our way. Those cannot even be side stepped by the Notwithstanding clause.

So, don't worry about it.


They tried to introduce some aspects of Sharia in Ontario for Muslims. But Sharia is like red meat to Canadians, there was such a fierce opposition to it that the government dropped the issue like a hot potato.

I think Quebec Assembly has passed a resolution forbidding implementation of Sharia in Quebec.
 

petros

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Sharia law has nothing to do with the hajib. It is regional and cultural.

I think Quebec Assembly has passed a resolution forbidding implementation of Sharia in Quebec
In the same stroke they'd have to ban Kosher. Does you bank offer Sharia accounts? I'll wager it does and you weren't aware.
 

petros

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Does anybody have troubles paying 2-10% extra on your groceries and various housewares because of kosher law? Why would Sharia cause you grief?
 

Machjo

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Sharia law has nothing to do with the hajib. It is regional and cultural.

Ha! Here I was about to prove to you that the Qur'an does in fact require women to wear hijab. As it turns out, though, I'm partly wrong: there is in fact some theological debate on the issue among Muslim scholars:

Hijab - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, whdda ya know, ya learn something new everyday.
 

Machjo

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And here is a view from an Englishman:
YouTube - Apologists for evil

I on't agree with everything he says here, but he does bring up some legitimate points.

He sayd Islamophobia doesn't exist. I say it does. But his assertion that his opposition to Islam has nothing to do with racism I can agree with at least in part. Some will accuse all Islamophobes of racism, when in fact some Islamophobes are not racist at all. Islam is a religion and not a race. Though of course many Islamophobes are racist too, but he does have a point that we shouldn't assume that in every case.

He says Islam oppresses women. I disagree. I'd say certain interpretations of Islam oppress women. It would seem that he's confusing fanaticism with Islam as such. Heck, I oppose fanaticism too, but not Islam per say. And no, not al women who wear burqas are necessarily forced to do so. And yes, some Muslim men do argue that if a woman doesn't cover up and gets raped it's her fault. But this is not all Muslim men.

Too many assumptions in the video. Too simplistic.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Ha! Here I was about to prove to you that the Qur'an does in fact require women to wear hijab. As it turns out, though, I'm partly wrong: there is in fact some theological debate on the issue among Muslim scholars:

Hijab - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, whdda ya know, ya learn something new everyday.


Machjo, Islam does not specifically say that women must wear hijab. It does however; say that women must dress modestly (a requirement that is not applicable to men). Most Islamic countries interpret that to mean that women must be fully covered, but they do not agree what that means.

Some mandate hijab, where woman is fully veiled. In Iran they mandate the chador, where a woman is completely covered except for her eyes. Only a small part of the woman, her eyes remain uncovered.

Hijab is more cultural than religious.