A fifth of European Union will be Muslim by 2050

Machjo

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I'm not presenting any arbitrary solutions, but i know unless Christian culture regenerates itself in vibrant and authentic new forms, Islam will crash over us, and cast us aside.

Very good statement. In this respect, freedom of religion provides for a free market of religion. If a seeker sees that Christians aren't practicing their Faith but that Muslims are, he'll naturally feel more attraction towards Islam. And of course the same applies vice versa.

Looking at it that way, the religious free market can help to revive religion.
 

Ron in Regina

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Very good statement. In this respect, freedom of religion provides for a free market of religion. If a seeker sees that Christians aren't practicing their Faith but that Muslims are, he'll naturally feel more attraction towards Islam. And of course the same applies vice versa.

Looking at it that way, the religious free market can help to revive religion.


OK...Devils Advocate now (Pun intended)...about choice, & freedom of choice:

Look at Saudi Arabia and it's choice (& freedom of choice) of religions...

100% Muslim? Source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sa.html
 

Machjo

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OK...Devils Advocate now (Pun intended)...about choice, & freedom of choice:

Look at Saudi Arabia and it's choice (& freedom of choice) of religions...

100% Muslim? Source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sa.html

But is Saudi Arabia a model Muslim state?

"Let there be no compulsion in Religion."

Qur'an 2:256 (Rodwell's transation)

Just as Israel isn't necessarily the model Jewish state, or the US the model Christian state, so Saudi Arabia is not necessarily the model Muslim state. Just as Jews criticize Israel, and Christians criticize the US, so Muslims also criticize Saudi Arabia.
 

darkbeaver

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Where have i ever said that. I've thought Western Jurisprudence and Western national economic principles, when they were allowed to operate, worked humanely and effectively.

My point is you cannot overestimate the effect of religious sentiments on social mores and institutions. It is at their origins, and they conform themselves to its principles. You might think they are irrelevant, or that we've 'evolved' past them, but that's not what history tells us.

Oswald Spengler's Decline of the West, published in the early 20th Century predicted much of what we are seeing now, as we become a 'post religious' society. Where it is tolerated, and considered somewhat quaint and a placebo for social peace, but with out any substance. Certainly without the clout to usurp the cult of secular reason, that governs us.

In fact societies where this has become the prevailing ethos, as our's has, have lost their civilizing impulse, and laid themselves open for conquest by vibrant cultures in the full flower their religious confidence and messianic zeal.

But you are right, my posts do have a chauvinistic element. I do not want to become a Muslim. I have no real interest in it, and frankly consider Islam an inversion of the intellectual and social tradition of Christianity, in its real form.

I'm not presenting any arbitrary solutions, but i know unless Christian culture regenerates itself in vital and authentic new forms, Islam will crash over us, and cast us aside.

Have faith Coldstream insecurities with respect to gods best interest in ones religion betrays the very essence of that religion, faith itself, as I understand it. If you had a rock solid faith in Jesus it strikes me that the prospect of Islam crashing over the church would be impossible and there would be no possibility of being usurped by Islam whatever. As for the decline of the west, look to the bankers, we did it all by ourselves, we would be in decline anyway, wouldn't we? Adversity builds faith and character, we built todays real Islam. IMO
 

SirJosephPorter

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Anyway, Telegraph (an extreme right wing newspaper, incidentally) seems to take a realistic, rational view of the subject. I have seen scary videos posted by extreme right wingnuts claiming that Europe will be mostly Muslim by year 2050 (or perhaps seven earlier) and predict that Most of Europe will be governed by Sharia in 20 or 30 years. I think somebody posted such a video in these forums a while ago.

Compared to that, Telegraph is showing lot of control, lot of moderation for a right wing extremist newspaper.
 

Extrafire

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A fifth of the population of the European Union, which currently stands at around 500 million, will be Muslim by 2050, an investigation by The Telegraph has revealed.
I think that's a bit conservative. The article says 5% is currently Muslim, but I've heard 10%. Non-muslims are reproducing at slightly more than half their replacement rate, so in two generations they will be at just over 1/4 of their current populaiton, or about 120 million. Muslims are reproducing about double their replacement rate so in two generations they will comprise 4 times their current population or about 200 million, plus massive immigration. Even if the current 5% figure is correct, that puts the non-muslim population at about 125 million and muslim at 100 million, plus massive immigration. Either way it puts them in the majority. One fifth? No, I'd say that by 2050, the nuclear armed EU will be Islamist.

Pundits put the percentage of radicals at anywhere between 1% and 10%. Even at 1%, two million radicals can do a lot of damage.
 

Extrafire

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To Blackleaf,

I believe that anyone who sincerely believes in freedom of religion will see nothing wrong with what religion dominates in society, since by definition a sincere belief in freedom of religion will oppose any kind of intervention to alter the religious demographics of society.
You're making a big assumption that Muslims in European countries will be as tollerant as the states they live in, even when they constitute a majority of the population, and life for the rest of the people will go on as before. That doesn't seem likely, considering their conduct in other jurisdictions.
 

Extrafire

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No one is invading Europe. The Muslims in Europe are either legal immigrants, born there, or freely converted for the most part.
At what point can immigration be considered invasion? Perhaps you could ask the North American Aboriginals. And while you're at it, ask them if such massive immigration had any effect on their society. Then extrapolate.
 

Extrafire

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And just another point for the sake of argument. Let's suppose Muslims do become a majority in future, but non-Muslims always treated them with respect until then. My guess is they'd come out as moderates. But if they'd been harassed until then, some of them might be looking vor vengeance. We can create our futures for good or bad.
Dream on.
 

petros

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So then it would be financially secure and a wise to start exporting Halal beef.

You gotta love it when great opportunities arise for Canadian agricultural exports especially if value added like Halal.
 

Machjo

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You're making a big assumption that Muslims in European countries will be as tollerant as the states they live in, even when they constitute a majority of the population, and life for the rest of the people will go on as before. That doesn't seem likely, considering their conduct in other jurisdictions.

Yes, I am making a big assumption. Compare the Christian Golden Age and the Dark Ages, both Christian societies, yet so different. Which will dominate in the coming decades? Compare Islam's Golden age (when even Chrsitians and Jews were fleeing to Muslim Spain for protection, as it co-incided with the Christian Dark Ages) and the current dark age of Islam. Again, which will Muslim Europe look like? We could assume any of these as the future of either religion. Religion can be a cause for good or evil. A Christian or Muslim Golden Age would be a wonderful thing for Europe. A Dark Age, not so good. Any of these is an assumption. So, what can we do about it beyond teaching respect for all world religions, and teaching students how the core spiritual teachings of all the major world religions are identical?
 

Machjo

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At what point can immigration be considered invasion? Perhaps you could ask the North American Aboriginals. And while you're at it, ask them if such massive immigration had any effect on their society. Then extrapolate.

You can't compare with the Aboriginals. The Aboriginals were indeed infaded and capitulated. Europe is fully in control and chooses who can enter and who can't. And as for religion, immigration is not the only source. Conversion plays a role too.
 

Machjo

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I remember some in the Green Party of Ontario proposing that elective world religion courses be offered in Ontario schools as an alternative to the separate Catholic schools (sounds like an idea similar to Quebec's). This is not a bad idea as it would give people of all Faiths a chance to learn about the world religions and look at the fundamental similaries between them, thus promoting a more respectful society.

Islamophobia will get us nowhere, as will Christo-phobia or any other xenophobia.
 

L Gilbert

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Oh, well. Almost 100% of North America used to be aboriginal. Now we are perhaps 5% of the population. :D
lmao Good point!


People move around a lot easier now than before. Demographics change. I don't hear any snivelling when we babyboomers outnumber other demographics on the continent. So there are more Muslims scooting around. Do these people think they'll catch Muslimitis or something? roflmao
 

SirJosephPorter

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You can't compare with the Aboriginals. The Aboriginals were indeed infaded and capitulated. Europe is fully in control and chooses who can enter and who can't. And as for religion, immigration is not the only source. Conversion plays a role too.


Machjo, Extrafire makes a good point, though not for the reason that he thinks. Christians, Europeans were extremely nasty to aboriginals (giving them small pox infested blankets and so on).

Indeed, that part of North American history could reasonably be compared to the Dark Ages in Europe, both were equally nasty, vicious and intolerant. So Islam does not have the monopoly on intolerance, Christians can match them fully well, point by point.

Both Islam and Christianity have had their Dark Ages and Golden Ages. Islamic Golden Age gave rise to science, philosophy, poetry etc. There is the immortal Omar Khayyam, and his Rubaiyat (I have read a book of English translation of some of the Rubaiyat). He has written plenty of poetry extolling the virtues of alcohol.

What Europe will be like in 50 years or 100 years nobody knows, it is purely speculation. They may be majority Islam, have Sharia and Islamic Dark Ages, or they may have a rise of extreme Christianity and may have another Christian Dark Age, who knows. My hope is that it continues to be the same tolreant, progressive society that it is today.