Gay Rights And The Bible

[MHz]

The Bible does not indicate that there are degrees of sin. My point being that while Christians believe homosexuality was the cause of problems and divine retribution at Sodom & Gomorrah, the Bible does NOT make that indication. The two principle sins were sex among angels & human females, the other being the ruthless exploitation of the poor.

The Bible doesn't agree with that statement.
M't:12:32:
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man,
it shall be forgiven him:
but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost,
it shall not be forgiven him,
neither in this world,
neither in the world to come.

When Jude says one of the sins of Sodom was sex with strange flesh he was referencing only men, the only Angels to be in that place were the two that came to destroy it. That isn't saying that was the only moral deficiency Sodom experienced, violence was also a problem. Just where do you see being gay has anyplace in this world if even a normal marriage is not to be found.

M'r:12:25:
For when they shall rise from the dead,
they neither marry,
nor are given in marriage;
but are as the angels which are in heaven.

 

[MHz]

Anyway, you want to chat about gays, their rights, and what is in the Bible about gays and their rights now?

I agree that things are off topic but are you trying to end comments to some of you statements just prior, like these quotes below.

Conjuring is conjuring whether its done in 6 seconds, 6 days or 6 thousand years.

The day for a year applies to the future, specifically the thousand years and Judgment Day. It has nothing to do with creation days. they were the 6 milestones in how eath went from a fiery ball till what existed by the end of day 6. Those days don't even have to be the same length. You would thinh that intellugent people would get a clue that our concept of 'day' does not apply because our standard of time did not exist on day 1. If people can't get that part correct why would they get any other part right. People can't even figure out who the beloved disciple is.

Does there? Does there have to be a beginning and end to the universe? Who says? I bet who says are simply people with limited imagination and limited views that can't even imagine there'd be anything beyond their limits. The sort of people that swore up & down the Earth was flat because the leader of their faith said so. But then there are still people that say that and everything science has come up with to show otherwise is just one tremendous, multinational, multigenerational hoax. lmao

Anything that has a beginning has an end, not that the end is what we propose it to be. An expanding universe should reach a point where it is unlike what it is these days (billions of years). For most svripture you don't need imagination. If the dead are said to rise froom the graves that is what is required, a child would understand that part.

...... or was just as fooled as a lot of other people around his time. Fun ny that we have artifacts from various different people throughout the ages, some important and some not important, and yet one that made such an alleged impression on everyone in his day left absolutely nothing. There's not even a reasonably detailed description of his face, or even whether he wore woolen clothing or flax clothing, or what color he liked most, if he had big feet and a crooked nose; nothing.

This is just an example of reluctance, you have no proof or any documentation that he was fooled, that is your imagination at work although you will label it as something much more 'concrete'.

Exactly. If people wrote about other aspects of him, why not the simple things such as his preference for music or if he liked walks on the beach or whatever? He was obviously important to a particular group of people, right? After all they made up all kinds of magical tales about him.

Why would you expect to find that sort of info, if what is written is not enough to convince you, a lot more words would do nothing to change that.

Even some important events were left out.
Joh:21:25:
And there are also many other things which Jesus did,
the which,
if they should be written every one,
I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.
Amen.

If it takes more then you will have to wait till you can touch His wounds, there isn't much difference in the long run although in the short term there are some profound differences that the two groups will experience.

Joh:20:25:
The other disciples therefore said unto him,
We have seen the Lord.
But he said unto them,
Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails,
and put my finger into the print of the nails,
and thrust my hand into his side,
I will not believe.

Only that which makes sense; that homosexuals are people and if there are gods, let them decide what to do with homosexuals.

There is enough info in Scripture to determine if adultery (gays and non-gays) fit in with this verse, if adultery is included well some very bad times are ahead for them. If on the other hand it is not viewed in that light then a verbal chastisement is all that will happen.
M't:13:41:
The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;

It may come down to how an individual sees adultery (being remarried after a divorce is also considered to be adultery so it does not just apply to sex between two men.

 

[gopher]

'' Bible doesn't agree with that statement.''

But that is not a reference to daily conduct which is what this thread deals with.

 

[MHz]

So what are the rights of gays according to the Bible? The OT has them suffering the same penalty as all adulterers. The NT is quite clear that marriage is between a man and a woman and anything else is adultery, a sin. If this society wants to redefine those words so be it, just don't try to reverse what Scripture says, that might be a sin that has dire consequences far beyond what being gay will bring.

Re:22:18:
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
If any man shall add unto these things,
God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Re:22:19:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life,
and out of the holy city,
and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[L Gilbert]

I agree that things are off topic but are you trying to end comments to some of you statements just prior, like these quotes below.

Nope. It's a discretionary thing, I guess.

The day for a year applies to the future, specifically the thousand years and Judgment Day. It has nothing to do with creation days. they were the 6 milestones in how eath went from a fiery ball till what existed by the end of day 6. Those days don't even have to be the same length. You would thinh that intellugent people would get a clue that our concept of 'day' does not apply because our standard of time did not exist on day 1. If people can't get that part correct why would they get any other part right. People can't even figure out who the beloved disciple is.

So you are saying that the world was teeming with life within 7 days of being a fireball? roflmao Sorry, but I guess you never took geology, huh? Events like geo-cooling DON'T happen that fast and science can show that. All the Bible can do is SAY that so-and-so poofed the planet in 6 days.

Anything that has a beginning has an end,

Perhaps. Time measurement didn't used to exist and it appears it won't go away ever. Anyway, who's around to say they know that the univserse even HAD a beginning? I think it always was and always will be.

not that the end is what we propose it to be. An expanding universe should reach a point where it is unlike what it is these days (billions of years). For most svripture you don't need imagination. If the dead are said to rise froom the graves that is what is required, a child would understand that part.

Ahhhhh, zombies. Cool!!

This is just an example of reluctance, you have no proof or any documentation that he was fooled, that is your imagination at work although you will label it as something much more 'concrete'.

Wrong. I merely ofered it as a suggestion. If people can hupothesiz3e about gods and stuff, I can hypothesize about stuff I want to, also.

Why would you expect to find that sort of info, if what is written is not enough to convince you, a lot more words would do nothing to change that.

There's a huge difference between people saying so-and-so fed thousands with 3 fish (or whatever the number was) and people saying the guy liked Pink Floyd or whatever his fave musician was. The latter is a wee bit more believable

Even some important events were left out.
Joh:21:25:
And there are also many other things which Jesus did,
the which,
if they should be written every one,
I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.
Amen.

I can sure as heck believe that. There seems to be no end of magic the guy was able to do. lmao

If it takes more then you will have to wait till you can touch His wounds, there isn't much difference in the long run although in the short term there are some profound differences that the two groups will experience.

Joh:20:25:
The other disciples therefore said unto him,
We have seen the Lord.
But he said unto them,
Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails,
and put my finger into the print of the nails,
and thrust my hand into his side,
I will not believe.

I wouldn't do a thing like that, but I would look to see scar tissue and ask who was his favorite musician and see if he didn't respond with quotes from the sillybook. (No offense meant concerning your quoting)

There is enough info in Scripture to determine if adultery (gays and non-gays) fit in with this verse, if adultery is included well some very bad times are ahead for them. If on the other hand it is not viewed in that light then a verbal chastisement is all that will happen.
M't:13:41:
The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;

It may come down to how an individual sees adultery (being remarried after a divorce is also considered to be adultery so it does not just apply to sex between two men.

So it's just personal interpretation. In that case, I think adultery is having sexual relations with someone outside of your marriage without consent of the married partner. If you aren't married, then nothing applies, whether you are gay, straight, Martian, Muslim, or whatever.
At any rate, even if I am wrong and homosexuality is wrong, then I still don't think it's up to any human being to stick his/her judgement into the matter. If there are gods, let them judge people. What Tom & Tony, Susan & Sheila, or Bob, Carol, Ted, Alice, and Shirley do with their lives is their business.

 

[ironsides]

''So your sin is not enough to bring down fire from Heaven (and I certainly agree that being gay is pretty minor when compared to what is going on in Scripture, at any level.''


The Bible does not indicate that there are degrees of sin. My point being that while Christians believe homosexuality was the cause of problems and divine retribution at Sodom & Gomorrah, the Bible does NOT make that indication. The two principle sins were sex among angels & human females, the other being the ruthless exploitation of the poor.

I do not know about exploitation of the poor, but you made your point about angels being involved.
"Why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Was the most extensive judgment found anywhere in the Bible outside of the book of Revelation actually for the sin of inhospitality, not homosexuality?"
Stand to Reason: What was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

You can't just pick and choose what parts of Gods laws you follow if you do then you really can't call yourselves christians.

That is the problem, isn’t it, Liberalman, who decides who is a Christian and who isn’t? There are Christians who say that Bible is not literally true, it has some wisdom in it and we may pick and choose the parts that make sense.

Such people call themselves Christian. Who are you to say that they are not? Has God given you the ultimate authority to decide who is a Christian and who isn’t?

Besides, it is only your opinion that Bible condemns homosexuality, many Christians think that it doesn’t. Indeed, many Christians do not see any conflict between the Bible and gay marriage. Who are you to say that they are wrong and you are right?

Finally, not everybody calls himself Christian. So anybody who does not consider himself Christian is not bound by what you say.

Your opinions are valid for yourself only, others (even other Christians) may have different point of view from you. That does not make them any less Christian than you.

 

[MHz]

I do not know about exploitation of the poor, but you made your point about angels being involved.
"Why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Was the most extensive judgment found anywhere in the Bible outside of the book of Revelation actually for the sin of inhospitality, not homosexuality?"
Stand to Reason: What was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

It wasn't one sin or just a few sinners.
Ge:18:20:
And the LORD said,
Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great,
and because their sin is very grievous;

Less than 10 righteous people were found there and it was destroyed (until Judgement Day, then all those former sinners are raised up with a clean slate)

Ge:18:32:
And he said,
Oh let not the Lord be angry,
and I will speak yet but this once:
Peradventure ten shall be found there.
And he said,
I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

The way this fits in is it is the first time fire from Heaven is sent to Earth. In the past when things had only Noah being perfect in human form God sent a lot of water.

The next two times that same fire comes down is on Babylon from Revelation and at the end of Satan's little season, also in Revelation.. The first time some men can witness it without being turned to salt, the next time they are already 'inside the fire' and it moves away from them in all directions and pretty much melts every last thing it touches, including Satan and Co. So while being gay is mentioned it is a far cry from being very important, in Sodom, in the OT or in the NT.

 

[MHz]

That is the problem, isn’t it, Liberalman, who decides who is a Christian and who isn’t? There are Christians who say that Bible is not literally true, it has some wisdom in it and we may pick and choose the parts that make sense.

Such people call themselves Christian. Who are you to say that they are not? Has God given you the ultimate authority to decide who is a Christian and who isn’t?

Besides, it is only your opinion that Bible condemns homosexuality, many Christians think that it doesn’t. Indeed, many Christians do not see any conflict between the Bible and gay marriage. Who are you to say that they are wrong and you are right?

Finally, not everybody calls himself Christian. So anybody who does not consider himself Christian is not bound by what you say.

Your opinions are valid for yourself only, others (even other Christians) may have different point of view from you. That does not make them any less Christian than you.

Post all the verse that back-up all your claims..no doubt he still has me on ignore. lol
What a short memory, I posted the verses not all that long ago. The Bible views homos as being adulterers. One passages say adulterers who do not wish to stop can (and should be) be ejected from a Christian organization

 

[MHz]

Nope. It's a discretionary thing, I guess.

That wasn't meant for you.

So you are saying that the world was teeming with life within 7 days of being a fireball? roflmao Sorry, but I guess you never took geology, huh? Events like geo-cooling DON'T happen that fast and science can show that. All the Bible can do is SAY that so-and-so poofed the planet in 6 days.

I said you can't define creation days by our (God given) standards of time, 6 stages the world went through to get to the way we know it. Complete some time before 4500 yrs ago. If you add 6 0's to that you end up at 4.5 billion years ago. Subtract one 0 for each days end. The first process towards life (was cooling to the point that water was in vapor and in liquid. That process took longer (our time) than the next phase (day) of development, and so on and so on.


Perhap

s. Time measurement didn't used to exist and it appears it won't go away ever. Anyway, who's around to say they know that the univserse even HAD a beginning? I think it always was and always will be. Ahhhhh, zombies. Cool!!

Zombies doing handsprings and healing everything they touch, yeah, real scary stuff.

Wrong. I merely ofered it as a suggestion. If people can hupothesiz3e about gods and stuff, I can hypothesize about stuff I want to, also.

True, but in the case of the Bible you have some starting point in any subject, the rest should have supporting verses.

There's a huge difference between people saying so-and-so fed thousands with 3 fish (or whatever the number was) and people saying the guy liked Pink Floyd or whatever his fave musician was. The latter is a wee bit more believable

So how does this song go again??

I can sure as heck believe that. There seems to be no end of magic the guy was able to do. lmao

Let alone writer

I wouldn't do a thing like that, but I would look to see scar tissue and ask who was his favorite musician and see if he didn't respond with quotes from the sillybook. (No offense meant concerning your quoting)

Surely you have heard Heaven has trumpets and singing etc.

So it's just personal interpretation. In that case, I think adultery is having sexual relations with someone outside of your marriage without consent of the married partner. If you aren't married, then nothing applies, whether you are gay, straight, Martian, Muslim, or whatever.

I meant on their part, adulterer plus some other sin(s) might tip the scales between being their and being there later.

At any rate, even if I am wrong and homosexuality is wrong, then I still don't think it's up to any human being to stick his/her judgement into the matter. If there are gods, let them judge people. What Tom & Tony, Susan & Sheila, or Bob, Carol, Ted, Alice, and Shirley do with their lives is their business.

I already stated my thoughts on this.

 

[gopher]

''I do not know about exploitation of the poor''

See Ezekiel16;49 re Sodom's evils:

this was the iniquity of Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness ... NEITHER DID SHE STRENGTHEN THE HAND OF THE POOR AND NEEDY ...

This shows that the problem was that Sodom was a wealthy land that exploited the poor - this and ''strange flesh'' or self between angels & human females were the reasons why Sodom & Gomorrah were destroyed.

 

[Cliffy]

''I do not know about exploitation of the poor''

See Ezekiel16;49 re Sodom's evils:

this was the iniquity of Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness ... NEITHER DID SHE STRENGTHEN THE HAND OF THE POOR AND NEEDY ...

This shows that the problem was that Sodom was a wealthy land that exploited the poor - this and ''strange flesh'' or self between angels & human females were the reasons why Sodom & Gomorrah were destroyed.

Is there any historical proof they even existed? I read once a long time ago that a city was found buried in the desert of the Middle east that looked like it had been nuked. I believe they were trying to prove it was one of those cities but i never saw any more on the subject.

 

[AnnaG]

That wasn't meant for you.

Oh.

I said you can't define creation days by our (God given) standards of time, 6 stages the world went through to get to the way we know it. Complete some time before 4500 yrs ago. If you add 6 0's to that you end up at 4.5 billion years ago. Subtract one 0 for each days end. The first process towards life (was cooling to the point that water was in vapor and in liquid. That process took longer (our time) than the next phase (day) of development, and so on and so on.

I didn't see anything in the Bible about adding zeroes and stages. I think all that is just rationalizing backpedaling to reconcile that science can show the 6 day thing was ludicrous. Give me a ridiculous statement and I can manipulate numbers to make things fit, too.

Perhap Zombies doing handsprings and healing everything they touch, yeah, real scary stuff.

I didn't say anything about scary, but what is scary about it is people leaping to the absurd conclusion that there's no reasonable explanation for the occurence if it's true. We may not have such an explanation for it at the moment but that does not mean there isn't one besides the abracadabra mumbo jumbo.

So how does this song go again??

What?

Surely you have heard Heaven has trumpets and singing etc.

Yeah. I have heard a lot of claims about heaven. As with pretty much the entire religion, there's no reason to believe it.

I meant on their part, adulterer plus some other sin(s) might tip the scales between being their and being there later.

Huh? Being their what?

 

[AnnaG]

Anyway, Christian opinion on what adultery is has no relevance to Muslims, atheists , etc. who all have their own ideas about it. There's no-one around who can definitively say one is right and the others wrong. It's all just conjecture

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Post all the verse that back-up all your claims..

Why should he have to do that? SJP wasn't arguing from Biblical authority, he was arguing on the basis of what seems good and true to him in terms of his personal ethics. You apparently consider the Bible to be the ultimate authority; not everybody shares that view, including a lot of good people who call themselves Christian, and a lot of good people who don't. Who are you to gainsay them?

 

[MHz]

Oh.

My post to Gilbert is not for you, the original post that he replied to was meant for you. No wonder you find the Bible confusing.

I didn't see anything in the Bible about adding zeroes and stages. I think all that is just rationalizing backpedaling to reconcile that science can show the 6 day thing was ludicrous. Give me a ridiculous statement and I can manipulate numbers to make things fit, too.

Yet you feel you can define a day of creation to our concept of time when our concept was not given until more than one day had passed. You goal is to make Scripture look as if it is in error.

I didn't say anything about scary, but what is scary about it is people leaping to the absurd conclusion that there's no reasonable explanation for the occurence if it's true. We may not have such an explanation for it at the moment but that does not mean there isn't one besides the abracadabra mumbo jumbo.

Nobody said you did, nor was that comment directed your way, it was to Gilbert.

Yeah. I have heard a lot of claims about heaven. As with pretty much the entire religion, there's no reason to believe it.

You don't actually have to go to Heaven, it comes here, some enjoy it before others. I wonder if plain belief will mean which group you end up in?

Isa:65:14:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

 

[gopher]

''Is there any historical proof they even existed? I read once a long time ago that a city was found buried in the desert of the Middle east that looked like it had been nuked. I believe they were trying to prove it was one of those cities but i never saw any more on the subject.''


Proof of their existence is in dispute. Some biblical pundits (most of whom have no professional credentials) claim that their ''proof'' verifies the existence of these cities. Most professional archeologists deny that their claims have a valid basis. This is what I have garnered from past readings but I have no expertise on the subject and cannot give a more informed answer.

It should also be noted that many biblical stories originated in books from other, older cultures. Some pre-date the Hebrews by 2,000 years.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

It should also be noted that many biblical stories originated in books from other, older cultures. Some pre-date the Hebrews by 2,000 years.

Gopher, when Christianity was established, the dominant religion in the world was Hinduism, while dominant religion in the Middle East was Zoroastrianism. So Christianity has borrowed freely from both these religions (in addition to Judaism, of course).

Now, when somebody is starting a new religion, what is the most sensible way of doing it? It would be absurd to start from scratch and invent everything, that would take too long, with no guarantees of doing a good job.

A much more sensible approach is to borrow from the currently existing religions and build up on that. Christianity has borrowed freely from the three religions I mentioned. In addition to basing their religion on Old Testament, I think Christians borrowed the concept of virgin birth and resurrection from Zoroastrianism, and the concepts of Second Coming and Trinity from Hinduism.

Same with Islam. When Islam was established, the dominant religions in the world were Hinduism and Christianity. So Islam has borrowed freely from both.

 

[JLM]

''Is there any historical proof they even existed? I read once a long time ago that a city was found buried in the desert of the Middle east that looked like it had been nuked. I believe they were trying to prove it was one of those cities but i never saw any more on the subject.''


Proof of their existence is in dispute. Some biblical pundits (most of whom have no professional credentials) claim that their ''proof'' verifies the existence of these cities. Most professional archeologists deny that their claims have a valid basis. This is what I have garnered from past readings but I have no expertise on the subject and cannot give a more informed answer.

It should also be noted that many biblical stories originated in books from other, older cultures. Some pre-date the Hebrews by 2,000 years.

I remember about 20 years ago someone found some planks off Noah's ark on the side of Mt. Ararat (not sure how they determined it was the arc unless perhaps Noah carved his initials in them), but anyway never did hear anymore about it. Just wondering if there ever was confirmation it was indeed the ark.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I remember about 20 years ago someone found some planks off Noah's ark on the side of Mt. Ararat (not sure how they determined it was the arc unless perhaps Noah carved his initials in them), but anyway never did hear anymore about it. Just wondering if there ever was confirmation it was indeed the ark.

JLM, planks from Noah’s ark? That is patently absurd. I assume they were wooden planks. How are wooden planks going to survive out in the open? They would have rotted away a long time ago (unless God in his infinite wisdom, kept them intact).

I would have disbelieved the story right form the beginning. I don’t think there is any way wooden planks would have survived this long.