Free Speech and the Left

[Cliffy]

No we don't.

Do you work for the Arguement Clinic?

Monty Python - Arguement Clinic

 

[aman12]

Only years and experience will impart wisdom. Universities will give us the tools to know what to do with wisdom when we finally get it.

 

[petros]

School gives an understanding, practice gives knowledge but only mistakes can give you wisdom.

 

[Tonington]

Oh come now. Stop being so modest. How would you know what I can or can't think of to say? If it's not from Yuniversittee, it must be self taught.

No, like I said, they leave that to crack pots to you Miss Daisy.

 

[CDNBear]

He has to, it's pretty common in minority governments. His ass would be canned if he didn't. That's not a point for evolving conservative views, but for political survival.

It's still change, and it was fast...;-)

Well, maybe that says more about the central Canadian institutions?

Maybe...:-|

The idea that grads are simply downloading content from professors without any thought is ridiculous to me.

To you maybe. But like I said before, you seem to be the exception to the rule.

You don't sit in the class rooms, or library, and hear the discussions about this class or that lab. You don't hear the discussion about performance evaluations that all professors must go through at the end of each course. You don't hear the debate in classroom. You don't work with other students on group assignemnts and term projects. This is as much a part of the learning as the lectures, in fact more so in some cases. Some classes have huge marks allocated to group work, which I don't genrally like anymore. I had a bad group this year, I basically had to write the entire business proposal for my entrepeneurship class.

Again, you being the exception. From what I've seen, and heard from others as well. The majority of University grads have their heads firmly planted in their collective asses.

Granted many graduates are left leaning, but this is exactly what I explained in my first post.

And how do you think they become, or have their left leaning thinking solidified?

This doesn't mean they are indoctrinated.

How else can you explain the diproportionate amount of left leaning people escaping Universities?

Maybe you have only talked to them on very specific subjects.

Nope, broad and varying. And they all come back at you from the left.

You thought I was a blithering leftard until you got to know me.

Nope, I thought you were a blithering leftard, until you told me you were considering a stint in the Armed Forces. That earned my respect on one level. You have always amazed me with your intellect. I may not like peoples ideology, but I can and will simply not dismiss thought/critical thought. You have that in spades.

I do have some very strong liberal views, but I have equally strong conservative views that not every poster takes the time to see. Free speech is one of them. Market economics is another. Personal responsibility, a strong military...the list is long.

I've seen it. But then you have other opinions I think are just way out in left field...:lol:

I doubt I'm a stand out in this regard.

I disagree. I say you are the exception, not the standard.

There's a million university students in this country, and I've met my fair share that aren't in any way blithering leftards.

Send them my email, I bet I can find their left side...:lol:

Idealistic, sure, though this is not limited to "left leaners"...

I agree.

Only years and experience will impart wisdom. Universities will give us the tools to know what to do with wisdom when we finally get it.

I completely disagree. The tools dished out in Universities do not support self education. I have met but one Engineer, in the 20 years I've worked with them, that was able to admit an error let alone learn from it. Sometimes these high educated types feel they can do no wrong. Actually, I think it's most of the time...

 

[Tonington]

It's still change, and it was fast...;-)

What is it you think he has changed the most. What policy do you think Harper has embraced that is not a traditional conservative plank?

And how do you think they become, or have their left leaning thinking solidified?

Who says it's solifdified? If it is, I imagine in many of the same way that right leaning folks become solidified in their thinking.

How else can you explain the diproportionate amount of left leaning people escaping Universities?

What is the disproportionate amount? Is it generally any different than non-university graduates of the same age category? It's hard to explain any of these things without knowing these kinds of things, not that I would be able to definitively anyways.

Nope, broad and varying. And they all come back at you from the left.

Must be something in the water at Carleton then...:lol:

Nope, I thought you were a blithering leftard, until you told me you were considering a stint in the Armed Forces. That earned my respect on one level. You have always amazed me with your intellect. I may not like peoples ideology, but I can and will simply not dismiss thought/critical thought. You have that in spades.

That would be getting to know me. ;-)

I've seen it. But then you have other opinions I think are just way out in left field...:lol:

Perhaps. Which ones can you think of specifically that are "way out in left field"?

I disagree. I say you are the exception, not the standard.

I really think your sample size is too small. :lol:

I completely disagree. The tools dished out in Universities do not support self education. I have met but one Engineer, in the 20 years I've worked with them, that was able to admit an error let alone learn from it.

That's those wacky engineers. It's hard to convince them that their plug-and-chug mathematics could possibly be in error. :lol:

The professor I have learned the most from has no problem at all with saying "I don't know, that's a good question." So I go out and find it myself.

Sometimes these high educated types feel they can do no wrong. Actually, I think it's most of the time...

And to this I counter with a few of my bosses, who have not been university educated, and couldn't possibly believe that they read blue prints wrong, even when I showed them where the error was, or that I already knew where the fill was going in the backyard, that I knew where the buried electrical and utility lines were actually buried, and that didn't believe that I knew how to read new OH&S guidelines and how to apply them.

Hardened folk are found everywhere. It's not just in university grads, it's a human trait.

 

[CDNBear]

What is it you think he has changed the most. What policy do you think Harper has embraced that is not a traditional conservative plank?

Spending, Kebec, transparency and accountability, law and order, the Senate...and so on...

Who says it's solifdified?

They do! By holding steadfast to what was installed, instead of applying critical thought.

If it is, I imagine in many of the same way that right leaning folks become solidified in their thinking.

Ya think!!!???

What is the disproportionate amount?

From experience, all. Except you...:lol:

Is it generally any different than non-university graduates of the same age category?

Ya, I would say so. But you can find the same silly thinking in the mediocrity coming out of the public school system.

It's hard to explain any of these things without knowing these kinds of things, not that I would be able to definitively anyways.

I know, it's only my opinion anyways...;-)

Must be something in the water at Carleton then...:lol:

:lol:...I agree!!!

That would be getting to know me. ;-)

Nope, I don't have to know you, to see you're smart. To find out where you're coming from, I needed to get to know you...

Perhaps. Which ones can you think of specifically that are "way out in left field"?

The Notwithstanding clause...I still remember calling you a wishy washy leftard. I was being gentle cuz I liked you even then, lol...;-)

I really think your sample size is too small. :lol:

Nope, in my present line of work, as well as past lines of work, I am in contact with University grads on an almost daily basis. And not always the same ones.

That's those wacky engineers. It's hard to convince them that their plug-and-chug mathematics could possibly be in error. :lol:

You ain't just whistlin' Dixie there sunshine!!!:-|

The professor I have learned the most from has no problem at all with saying "I don't know, that's a good question." So I go out and find it myself.

That's a Prof I could develope some respect for...;-)

And to this I counter with a few of my bosses, who have not been university educated, and couldn't possibly believe that they read blue prints wrong, even when I showed them where the error was, or that I already knew where the fill was going in the backyard, that I knew where the buried electrical and utility lines were actually buried, and that didn't believe that I knew how to read new OH&S guidelines and how to apply them.

Ya but that's "Management"...They're the same as University grads. Hell, I'm that way!!! :lol:

Hardened folk are found everywhere. It's not just in university grads, it's a human trait.

Yep, must be the closet "c" onservative in me that hates the leftards of the world...:lol:

 

[gopher]

No we don't.

yes we have :tongue9:

 

[gopher]

I got still another anonymous bad rep point from a coward who is too sissy to identify him/herself.

that wasn't you was it cannuck? just asking

 

[gopher]

But it does show how the far right always complains that the left hate free speech but nobody attacks it more than do the far right cowards.

 

[Colpy]

Thanks Cannuck! Great posts....in the beginning.

 

[Machjo]

Is it a shock to anyone that universities are mostly filled with "left" leaning folk? These are centers of learning, and it's in most cases a given that new knowledge leads to progressive views. It's not indoctrination, it's what happens when most normal people are shown different perspectives, and often are forced outside their zone of comfort. Outside that zone, givens that were taken for granted are shown to be not so clear cut. While conservative views are by contrast slow to change.

That doesn't mean conservative views are suppressed. Quite the contrary. It does mean that some generalized conservative views will be challenged, and that's what happens at university. I'm exposed to new ideas, many old ideas that built the foundation for new ideas, and I'm challenged to see a larger picture. Some people will keep their idealism, others will soften, or perhaps harden on those new ideas.

The guests at universities tend to draw out: interested students, sympathetic people from the community, and occasionally ideological opposites. I've never been at one where a pie was thrown in the face, but then my schools haven't been the type where one would see Ann Coulter appearing to give a talk.

This canard I find to be a particularly paranoid talking point for conservatives.

Just visit Rabble.ca

I'd tried to discuss ideas there once, and though I have no issue with people opposing my views, I generally expect them to oppose the views on rational grounds and with a modicum of respect. Instead, when I'd challenged Official Bilingualism to take one example (and I'm a native French speaker myself), I couldn't believe the vehemence coming out of their keyboards. I was accused of being racist against francophones (1. I am a francophone, and 2. to anyone who's reasonably literate in English, francophones comprise a speech community, not a racial one). When I'd challenged them on that, they couldn't even give me a definition of racism even though they could easily accuse me of being racist against a non-racial community.

I then tried to argue the case for economic savings. All of a sudden, I was a right-wing capitalist who cared about nothing but the bottom line. When I'd argued that if anything, Aboriginal languages should get more protection than French owing to their precarious situation, suddenly Aboriginals didn't matter and Canada was founded on English and French. No racism there?

Anyway, though I have no issue with disagreements, I did take issue with their barrage of insults to make their pointless point. Though there were exceptions, granted, but that was the majority, and by all accounts, that is an extreme left forum.

 

[Machjo]

I never went to college or university because I met too many students from those institutions that walked around like they had broom handles up their butts (which a few gay men I know find a turn on.) Then I look at the degrees that are in charge of our forests, our medical and law systems and I have even less respect for them, but I think that constant badgering, name calling and general put downs are even less admirable.

Well, just look at our politicians. George Bush's time at Harvard taught him things like 'Is our children learning' and 'Childrens do learn'. He also had the wisdom to go against the advice of his own intelligence services and the UN and proclaim that Saddam Hussain had weapons of mass destruction.

And let's look at Harper, Layton, etc., and listen to their university-educated gibberish.

Let us pray that none of our teachers are Harvard graduates.

 

[Machjo]

Wow!! I didn't realize they taught you mind reading in Yuniversittee.

Modern universities have really just become a money grab from our childrens. After all, is our children learning much there now? Let's just observe our leaders, political and otherwise, and the corruption they engage in.