What Americans really think.

[JLM]

JLM, I really couldn’t tell you what the left wing positions are, you may want to look up NDP platform for that. However, left of centre positions are as follows:

Economy – Sound economic management, no deficits. That is how Liberals governed for 13 years. In my opinion, government should do whatever is necessary to not run a deficit, including spending cuts and tax increases. We will leave aside the current economic meltdown. That is an exception, perhaps once a century occurrence.

Gay marriage – in favor of gay marriage. The most recent poll I saw puts the support for gay marriage at 59% (I think opposed were around 35%).

Minimum wage – in favour of minimum wage.

I'm in favour of minimum wage, just not a legislated minimum wage. Gov't.s should be telling people how to run their business. A minimum wage set by the business community will work well because those who undercut it will just see the employees walk, or they will get employees who are so incompetent that their business will fail anyway. Your answer re the economy is just paraphrasing what I already said- "no deficits" means not spending money you don't have.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Your answer re the economy is just paraphrasing what I already said- "no deficits" means not spending money you don't have.

Perhaps so, JLM. But will you support tax increase to stave off the deficit? Most conservatives are ideologically opposed to any tax increases. I support tax increases if it will get rid of the deficit (as McGuinty did in Ontario).

As to minimum wage, voluntary minimum wage won’t work. When there is buyer’s market, when there is high unemployment, unscrupulous employers could lower the wage to literally pennies an hour. During depression, there used to be signs ‘will work for food’. That may become the norm if there is no minimum wage.

 

[JLM]

Your answer re the economy is just paraphrasing what I already said- "no deficits" means not spending money you don't have.

Perhaps so, JLM. But will you support tax increase to stave off the deficit? Most conservatives are ideologically opposed to any tax increases. I support tax increases if it will get rid of the deficit (as McGuinty did in Ontario).

As to minimum wage, voluntary minimum wage won’t work. When there is buyer’s market, when there is high unemployment, unscrupulous employers could lower the wage to literally pennies an hour. During depression, there used to be signs ‘will work for food’. That may become the norm if there is no minimum wage.

Would I support tax increase? As a last resort, after ALL gov't programs have been reviewed for necessity and all fat at the trough has been cut. Sir Joe- if you can find it compare M.P.'s pension formula with reg. civil servant's pension formula. There must be equality there before I'd Okay any tax hikes. What about M.P.s the G.G. etc. flying first class, when economy will get them there just as safely? "Will work for food"- come on S.J. Smart employers know that good employees are essential for the company to make money. Fair employers will share the added profits with employees who contribute to it.

 

[ironsides]

Our election results are distorted because the vote is too easily split among too many parties. Three was good. Two is too black-or-white.

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]I would like to see a strong third party here. A third party occasionally pops its head up here, but soon disappears. But to black and white is still better than a rainbow. I know it is your liberalism that has caused this problem, just to much.
[/FONT]

 

[ironsides]

"Gay marriage – in favor of gay marriage. The most recent poll I saw puts the support for gay marriage at 59% (I think opposed were around 35%)."

I hope this is not you only reason for deciding who is right or left, I know many people who are right wing, not religious fanatics and in favor of womens and gay rights. In other issues they are as right as anyone could get. Against illegal immigration, against giving welfare to illegals, wanting to send them back to wherever they cam from. Strongly In favor of owning guns. Right wingers, America for Americans type people. My point being how can we really say someone is Left of Right.

 

[Cliffy]

The problem with politics is politicians and political parties. With more lobbyists than politicians, our systems are open to personal graft. The systems attract the greedy and self interested. I would rather see a no party system where everybody is elected on their own merit and government run by consensus.

 

[ironsides]

As long as only a couple of candidates somehow get in a position to be voted for. Not for example 20 voters get to vote for 20 candidates. 2 or 3 candidates would be ok. What would it take to knock Canada down to no more than 5 parties, 4 even better?

 

[Scott Free]

Mathematically elections don't work. It is possible to have a vote, count the votes by different methods and have entirely different and seemingly fair outcomes. Since elections are the fundamental cornerstone of democracy.... well, democracy doesn't work either.

"It's not the people who vote that count. It's the people who count the votes." (Josef Stalin)

Voting systems.

 

[darkbeaver]

Hi SF how's it going eh? Democracy is extinct in the west now isn't it? I haven't seen one in years.

 

[ironsides]

Is this Left wing Liberal behavior leading to the end of Democracy? Has it gone to far. How much of our lives must we turn over to goverment control?

 

[Scott Free]

Hi SF how's it going eh? Democracy is extinct in the west now isn't it? I haven't seen one in years.

I'm doing well thank you.

Yes, it most certainly is dead but then it never really was alive.

Our "democracy" is quite different then the ones we claim spawned it. We have mixed in ways of incarcerating ourselves in nations and promoting our own subjugation through police technologies (health care, schools, social services, etc). Even our advocates and representatives serve only to confine our freedom - and we call that free. It is a very ridiculous situation which is growing more so by the minute.

"Rational government is this, so to speak; given the nature of the state, it can hold down its enemies for an indeterminate length of time. It can do so only if it increases its own strength. And its enemies do likewise." - Foucault

 

[darkbeaver]

Yes it seems we will have efficient government but we won't like taking the medicine without lots of sugar. It's a strange planet, glad I'm not staying.

 

[Scott Free]

I think we humans are really dumb animals or perhaps it is a problem brought on by our short lifetimes. Maybe a longer lived species wouldn't "need" (want?) such immature and maniacal institutions.

 

[Cliffy]

I think it is because we are still in a pre-pubic state of emotional and intellectual development. On a subconscious level we know that without all these restraints we would revert back to a Lord of the Flies state of chaos and barbarity.

 

[Scott Free]

I think it is because we are still in a pre-pubic state of emotional and intellectual development. On a subconscious level we know that without all these restraints we would revert back to a Lord of the Flies state of chaos and barbarity.

I agree with on caveat: the fear is taught to us and regularly enforced.

There are other systems than the few we have been given to choose from.

It is the model of the Sheppard and a flock that has caused so much confusion.

 

[lone wolf]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]I would like to see a strong third party here. A third party occasionally pops its head up here, but soon disappears. But to black and white is still better than a rainbow. I know it is your liberalism that has caused this problem, just to much.
[/FONT]

...and what has greed and tunnel vision won you?

 

[ironsides]

...and what has greed and tunnel vision won you?

Could ask you the same question. How about a benevolent dictator, that hasen't been tried in a while. :smile:
.
As long as were both a capitalist system, it will be hard to keep greed out. Seems greed filters down to the all parties, small and large. We won't have a revolution over it, corporations hold control to much power. That is why no matter who wins a election it must be absolute, hopefully the right person can win and make some little change.

 

[lone wolf]

Could ask you the same question. How about a benevolent dictator, that hasen't been tried in a while. :smile:
.
As long as were both a capitalist system, it will be hard to keep greed out. Seems greed filters down to the all parties, small and large. We won't have a revolution over it, corporations hold control to much power. That is why no matter who wins a election it must be absolute, hopefully the right person can win and make some little change.

Benevolent dictator? Name one.

A capitalist system has to come with brakes. Government is supposed to be people ... not a means for today's nobility to fleece them. They with the power will generally abuse it.

 

[captain morgan]

Could ask you the same question. How about a benevolent dictator, that hasen't been tried in a while. :smile:
.
As long as were both a capitalist system, it will be hard to keep greed out. Seems greed filters down to the all parties, small and large.



Greed is the biggest factor that contributes to any form of progress... It's not the mots pleasant thought, but fairly accurate.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Would I support tax increase? As a last resort, after ALL gov't programs have been reviewed for necessity and all fat at the trough has been cut. Sir Joe- if you can find it compare M.P.'s pension formula with reg. civil servant's pension formula. There must be equality there before I'd Okay any tax hikes. What about M.P.s the G.G. etc. flying first class, when economy will get them there just as safely? "Will work for food"- come on S.J. Smart employers know that good employees are essential for the company to make money. Fair employers will share the added profits with employees who contribute to it.

JLM, this vividly illustrates the difference between a liberal (me) and a conservative (you). Basically what you are saying is that you won’t support a tax increase under any circumstances.

Because you know and I know that the precondition you put up before you will support tax increases is never going to be met. There will never be equality between MPs pension and civil servants’ pension.

So in effect what you are saying is that if it is the choice between running a deficit and increasing taxes, you would rather run a deficit. Indeed, that is the position that has been taken by most conservative leaders in recent memory. Rather than increase taxes, they racked up huge deficits. Both the Bush’s, Mulroney, Reagan, Mike Harris etc.

As a liberal, I have no problem with a tax increase if it is clearly earmarked for reducing and getting rid of the deficit. That is what McGuinty did and I supported it from the very beginning. If he had frittered away the tax increase, not used it to get rid of the deficit, he would have lost my support. However, he did succeed in getting rid of the 6 billion $ Mike Harris deficit.

As a liberal, I have no problem in supporting tax increases, provided they are clearly earmarked for the elimination of the deficit.