The Improbability of God
- Thread starter Scott Free
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Speaking of walleye. We don't necessarily eat fish on Freya's Day. Tonight I hear we are having Salisbury steak with onion and mushroom gravy, mashed spuds, and broccoli.
The time you said you needed to tell God your opinion of how things have gone upto a certain point.
That's even less coherent than most of your attempts to appear scientific. 1400 years ago nobody knew even that the earth was rotating, never mind Venus. The information at that link quite clearly says Venus is rotating, albeit slowly and in a retrograde direction. The earth's speed is no "reference speed?" It has no particular significance as a standard, the earth's characteristics are just used in the tables as a unit for comparative purposes. You're arguing that 2% of some number can be considered equivalent to zero just because it's a relatively small fraction, which is silly. Earth's diameter is less than 1% of the sun's diameter, for instance; would you then argue that Earth's diameter can be said to be zero? This is science you're trying to talk about, precision and accuracy matter.
And BTW, there were no science books in any modern sense 1400 years ago, though you keep trying to treat the Bible as one. It's not, it's mostly mythology, and it's foolish to take it literally and waste so much time and effort trying to rationalize all its internal contradictions and inconsistencies and errors of fact and logic. Equally foolish is trying to divine the future from it.
And BTW, there were no science books in any modern sense 1400 years ago, though you keep trying to treat the Bible as one. It's not, it's mostly mythology, and it's foolish to take it literally and waste so much time
Dexter, have you read Isaac Asimov’s book on Bible? If not, I highly recommend it. In that he discusses the science or Chemistry (he was a biochemist by training) described in the Bible. In that he says that Bible doesn’t mention mercury at all. The metal mercury is mentioned nowhere in the Bible. The reason? Mercury was not known 2000 years ago.
So science described in Bible very much reflects what was known in those days.
Dexter, have you read Isaac Asimov’s book on Bible? If not, I highly recommend it. In that he discusses the science or Chemistry (he was a biochemist by training) described in the Bible. In that he says that Bible doesn’t mention mercury at all. The metal mercury is mentioned nowhere in the Bible. The reason? Mercury was not known 2000 years ago.
So science described in Bible very much reflects what was known in those days.
Although the one 
Scott free) that wrote the first post in this thread is not here now, but anyhow we have to explain some points:
· The first heavenly books the Torah and the Gospel, most of which are the translations included in the Old and New Testaments) were not originally revealed to be some scientific books, which is not the aim and purpose from revealing the heavenly book;
>> but to save man from the darkness of atheism, polytheism and associating others with God Almighty,
>> and to acquaint man about the next spiritual life that will follow his death,
>> and to be just and love other people that are righteous and believers.
Such original Torah and Gospel might include some ayat or revelations which intended to alert man to the marvels of the heavens and the earth, to let him contemplate and glorify God and so to increase his faith and belief.
· While the Quran, which is the last revealed heavenly book; although it does also intend to instruct man about serving his God alone without associate and to believe in all the apostles of God and in all the heavenly books and to believe in the afterlife; but the case is somewhat different in the Glorious Quran, because it is the last one of God's revealed books.
The Quran includes a large number of ayat related to the universe: to let man think about the wisdom of God Most Gracious.
Moreover, a large number of the ayat of the Quran are the Mutashabihat: i.e. ambiguous and the Quran said that such ayat will be interpreted by the Mahdi or the Paraclete or Elijah of the Last Days.
Such ambiguous ayat are of a large number (may be about half of the Quran), and their interpretation will give the Quran an extra-extension till Doomsday;
i.e. such interpretation of these ambiguous ayat will be like a new revelation: to teach all people the just among them and the god-fearing, not the profligate and the disobedient: the enemies of God)
The Quran is far more than all the past heavenly books in this respect, in spite of its small size, and it includes a tremendous knowledge that stems, branches and rebranches to give a great size knowledge (as if the book is not that small and concise)
This is in the Quran 36: 1-11
يس . وَالْقُرْآنِ الْحَكِيمِ . إِنَّكَ لَمِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ . عَلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ . تَنزِيلَ الْعَزِيزِ الرَّحِيمِ . لِتُنذِرَ قَوْمًا مَّا أُنذِرَ آبَاؤُهُمْ فَهُمْ غَافِلُونَ . لَقَدْ حَقَّ الْقَوْلُ عَلَى أَكْثَرِهِمْ فَهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ . إِنَّا جَعَلْنَا فِي أَعْنَاقِهِمْ أَغْلاَلاً فَهِيَ إِلَى الأَذْقَانِ فَهُم مُّقْمَحُونَ . وَجَعَلْنَا مِن بَيْنِ أَيْدِيهِمْ سَدًّا وَمِنْ خَلْفِهِمْ سَدًّا فَأَغْشَيْنَاهُمْ فَهُمْ لاَ يُبْصِرُونَ . وَسَوَاء عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ . إِنَّمَا تُنذِرُ مَنِ اتَّبَعَ الذِّكْرَ وَخَشِيَ الرَّحْمَن بِالْغَيْبِ فَبَشِّرْهُ بِمَغْفِرَةٍ وَأَجْرٍ كَرِيمٍ Scott free) that wrote the first post in this thread is not here now, but anyhow we have to explain some points:· The first heavenly books
the Torah and the Gospel, most of which are the translations included in the Old and New Testaments) were not originally revealed to be some scientific books, which is not the aim and purpose from revealing the heavenly book; >> but to save man from the darkness of atheism, polytheism and associating others with God Almighty,
>> and to acquaint man about the next spiritual life that will follow his death,
>> and to be just and love other people that are righteous and believers.
Such original Torah and Gospel might include some ayat or revelations which intended to alert man to the marvels of the heavens and the earth, to let him contemplate and glorify God and so to increase his faith and belief.
· While the Quran, which is the last revealed heavenly book; although it does also intend to instruct man about serving his God alone without associate and to believe in all the apostles of God and in all the heavenly books and to believe in the afterlife; but the case is somewhat different in the Glorious Quran, because it is the last one of God's revealed books.
The Quran includes a large number of ayat related to the universe: to let man think about the wisdom of God Most Gracious.
Moreover, a large number of the ayat of the Quran are the Mutashabihat: i.e. ambiguous and the Quran said that such ayat will be interpreted by the Mahdi or the Paraclete or Elijah of the Last Days.
Such ambiguous ayat are of a large number (may be about half of the Quran), and their interpretation will give the Quran an extra-extension till Doomsday;
i.e. such interpretation of these ambiguous ayat will be like a new revelation: to teach all people
the just among them and the god-fearing, not the profligate and the disobedient: the enemies of God)The Quran is far more than all the past heavenly books in this respect, in spite of its small size, and it includes a tremendous knowledge that stems, branches and rebranches to give a great size knowledge (as if the book is not that small and concise)
This is in the Quran 36: 1-11
The explanation:
( In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
- Ya. Sien. That means: (Be Certain and Comply) that means:
(O Mohammed, don't doubt about your apostle-hood, but be certain of that revealed to you, comply to the command of your Lord and carry out your duty.)
- [I swear] by the wise Quran!
- Surely, you are one of the messengers.
- [Following] on a standard way [of God's religion: the monotheism].
- [The Quran is] a revelation [coming] from [God] the All-Mighty, the Most Merciful.
- That you [Mohammed] may warn a people [:the Arab] whose fathers were not warned [by any messenger before you], therefore they are unaware [of the Hereafter.]
- The word has been deservedly sentenced against most of them [to be punished], therefore they believe not [because they only imitate their fathers.]
- We laid [in the Hereafter] chains on their necks reaching to [their] beards so they became 'lifting up their heads and closing their eyes'.
- And We laid a bar [of lava and fire] before them and another behind them, and [thus] We overwhelmed them [with fire and the smoke of volcanoes], so that they could not see [the way to get out].
- It is the same to them whether you [Mohammed] warn them or you warn them not, they believe not.
- You [Mohammed] only warn him who follows the admonition [of the Quran] and fears [God] Most Gracious in secret, so give him the good news of forgiveness and excellent reward [in the Hereafter.])
quranandhebrewbible.t35.com
manafterdeath.t35.com
universeandquran.t35.com
manafterdeath.t35.com
universeandquran.t35.com
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Although the one
I haven't gone anywhere.
The Quran includes a large number of ayat related to the universe: to let man think about the wisdom of God Most Gracious.
Moreover, a large number of the ayat of the Quran are the Mutashabihat: i.e. ambiguous and the Quran said that such ayat will be interpreted by the Mahdi or the Paraclete or Elijah of the Last Days.
Such ambiguous ayat are of a large number (may be about half of the Quran), and their interpretation will give the Quran an extra-extension till Doomsday;
i.e. such interpretation of these ambiguous ayat will be like a new revelation: to teach all people
In other words the Quran was made intentionally ambiguous so it could be interpreted in the future with new knowledge!!!! That is exactly and precisely what one would expect if the book was the work of man. If it was from god then it wouldn't need to be ambiguous at all!!! Good could give facts and figures, formula and cures, but instead the Quran is ambiguous because Muhammad could no more know the future than anyone else!
Well eanassir, good job! you went and proved your god is false and right out of the horses mouth no less! Seriously - awesome!
I have indeed, those two volumes are on the shelf where I keep my most frequently consulted references. It's the shelf I can reach from my desk without having to get up. :smile:
Yep. Anybody know what the probability is that every glass of water you drink contains at least one molecule that once passed through someone's colon? There are more molecules in a glass of water than there are glasses of water available on the planet; it's pretty much 100%. You're drinking, at least partly, your own bowel movements... :lol:
Talloola said that she will return to the earth, as will all people.
Very strange indeed; so you believe you will be part of the earth, and the afterlife is a myth!
But what are you then? Merely some dust? And yourself (and I don't say your soul)? And your mind and reason? All this is only dust and nothing else? Is this reasonable? Is this logical? And when you say: "I am" do you mean your body? Or your entity which is yourself and your soul, other than your body?
Although it is correct that our bodies will return to the earth; this is obvious, and it is in the Quran 20: 55
مِنْهَا خَلَقْنَاكُمْ وَفِيهَا نُعِيدُكُمْ وَمِنْهَا نُخْرِجُكُمْ تَارَةً أُخْرَى
The explanation:
(Therefrom [: from the earth] We have created you [people,] then We shall return you back into it, then shall get you out of it another time.)
The interpretation:
>> (Therefrom [: from the earth] We have created you [people,])
>> (then We shall return you back into it) i.e. We shall return to the earth –following death – your bodies which We created out of the earth.
>> (then shall get you out of it another time); it means: We shall get your bodies out to form into them new souls: that is because the elements of the dead bodies will be absorbed by trees and plants and will be eaten to become the seminal fluid of the man, which will be poured in the womb of the woman to form the fetus, then the child then the man and the woman.
man-after-death.t35.com/#What_Is_Man_
Very strange indeed; so you believe you will be part of the earth, and the afterlife is a myth!
But what are you then? Merely some dust? And yourself (and I don't say your soul)? And your mind and reason? All this is only dust and nothing else? Is this reasonable? Is this logical? And when you say: "I am" do you mean your body? Or your entity which is yourself and your soul, other than your body?
Although it is correct that our bodies will return to the earth; this is obvious, and it is in the Quran 20: 55
مِنْهَا خَلَقْنَاكُمْ وَفِيهَا نُعِيدُكُمْ وَمِنْهَا نُخْرِجُكُمْ تَارَةً أُخْرَى
The explanation:
(Therefrom [: from the earth] We have created you [people,] then We shall return you back into it, then shall get you out of it another time.)
The interpretation:
>> (Therefrom [: from the earth] We have created you [people,])
>> (then We shall return you back into it) i.e. We shall return to the earth –following death – your bodies which We created out of the earth.
>> (then shall get you out of it another time); it means: We shall get your bodies out to form into them new souls: that is because the elements of the dead bodies will be absorbed by trees and plants and will be eaten to become the seminal fluid of the man, which will be poured in the womb of the woman to form the fetus, then the child then the man and the woman.
man-after-death.t35.com/#What_Is_Man_
I have said that before, Scott Free, both Bible and Koran are ambiguous books, they say contradictory things at the same time, so that a person may find support to his prejudices, biases in them, no matter however bizarre.
Indeed, their ambiguity, amorphousness is the very reason why they are so popular, why they are accepted by more than a billion people each.
Indeed, Mother Teresa is considered a Christian. So are Pat Robertson, Torquemada and Savonarola. These individuals have nothing whatever in common. They wouldn’t call themselves Christians unless they find support for their beliefs in the Bible. Support for an incredible amount of compassion, charity, desire to help the needy, disadvantaged, unbelievable amount of love for the poor, the dispossessed (Mother Teresa), but also support for incredible amount of hatred, prejudice, bigotry (Pat Robertson), the most painful, lingering and innovative techniques for torture, killing and mayhem, untold amount of persecution (Torquemada and Savonarola).
So Bible, Koran are really like mirrors, one sees in them what one wants to see.
[Scott free said:] " In other words the Quran was made intentionally ambiguous so it could be interpreted in the future with new knowledge!!!! That is exactly and precisely what one would expect if the book was the work of man."
On the contrary: if Mohammed invented the Quran, would he say to other people: I don't know the meaning of these ayat, but only some other ayat I have been taught their meaning by the angel Gabriel;
as God said in the Quran 4: 113
وَلَوْلاَ فَضْلُ اللّهِ عَلَيْكَ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَهَمَّت طَّآئِفَةٌ مُّنْهُمْ أَن يُضِلُّوكَ وَمَا يُضِلُّونَ إِلاُّ أَنفُسَهُمْ وَمَا يَضُرُّونَكَ مِن شَيْءٍ وَأَنزَلَ اللّهُ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَعَلَّمَكَ مَا لَمْ تَكُنْ تَعْلَمُ وَكَانَ فَضْلُ اللّهِ عَلَيْكَ عَظِيمًا
The explanation:
(But for the grace and mercy of God to you [Mohammed], a party of [the hypocrites: the folk of Abu-Tu'ma] intended to mislead you [from just judgment],
but they mislead only themselves and they will hurt you not at all;
God has revealed to you the Book [: the Quran] and the wisdom [: the admonition],
and taught you that [knowledge] which you [Mohammed] knew not before;
God's grace to you [Mohammed] is ever great.)
Moreover, will he say to himself: Don't doubt about your apostle-hood? And if you doubt, God will take the apostle-hood and prophet-hood from you and you will lose?
This is in the Quran 10: 94-95
فَإِن كُنتَ فِي شَكٍّ مِّمَّا أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ فَاسْأَلِ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَؤُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِن قَبْلِكَ لَقَدْ جَاءكَ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ فَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ . وَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَذَّبُواْ بِآيَاتِ اللّهِ فَتَكُونَ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ
The explanation:
(And if you [Mohammed] are in doubt of [the Quran revelation] that We have sent down to you,
then question those [Jews] who read the Scripture [that was] before you [: were their prophets some of the angels or were they human beings like you]
The truth, indeed, has come to you from your Lord [not from demons]; so be not of those who waver.
Nor cry lies to God's revelations; for then you will lose [the prophethood.])
ÕÝÍÉ ÌÏíÏÉ 1
quranandhebrewbible.t35.com/english3.htm#_Why_did_God_order_Mohammed_to_ask_the_People_of_the_Bible
On the contrary: if Mohammed invented the Quran, would he say to other people: I don't know the meaning of these ayat, but only some other ayat I have been taught their meaning by the angel Gabriel;
as God said in the Quran 4: 113
وَلَوْلاَ فَضْلُ اللّهِ عَلَيْكَ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَهَمَّت طَّآئِفَةٌ مُّنْهُمْ أَن يُضِلُّوكَ وَمَا يُضِلُّونَ إِلاُّ أَنفُسَهُمْ وَمَا يَضُرُّونَكَ مِن شَيْءٍ وَأَنزَلَ اللّهُ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَعَلَّمَكَ مَا لَمْ تَكُنْ تَعْلَمُ وَكَانَ فَضْلُ اللّهِ عَلَيْكَ عَظِيمًا
The explanation:
(But for the grace and mercy of God to you [Mohammed], a party of [the hypocrites: the folk of Abu-Tu'ma] intended to mislead you [from just judgment],
but they mislead only themselves and they will hurt you not at all;
God has revealed to you the Book [: the Quran] and the wisdom [: the admonition],
and taught you that [knowledge] which you [Mohammed] knew not before;
God's grace to you [Mohammed] is ever great.)
Moreover, will he say to himself: Don't doubt about your apostle-hood? And if you doubt, God will take the apostle-hood and prophet-hood from you and you will lose?
This is in the Quran 10: 94-95
فَإِن كُنتَ فِي شَكٍّ مِّمَّا أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ فَاسْأَلِ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَؤُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِن قَبْلِكَ لَقَدْ جَاءكَ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ فَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ . وَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَذَّبُواْ بِآيَاتِ اللّهِ فَتَكُونَ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ
The explanation:
(And if you [Mohammed] are in doubt of [the Quran revelation] that We have sent down to you,
then question those [Jews] who read the Scripture [that was] before you [: were their prophets some of the angels or were they human beings like you]
The truth, indeed, has come to you from your Lord [not from demons]; so be not of those who waver.
Nor cry lies to God's revelations; for then you will lose [the prophethood.])
ÕÝÍÉ ÌÏíÏÉ 1
quranandhebrewbible.t35.com/english3.htm#_Why_did_God_order_Mohammed_to_ask_the_People_of_the_Bible
[Scott free said:] " In other words the Quran was made intentionally ambiguous so it could be interpreted in the future with new knowledge!!!! That is exactly and precisely what one would expect if the book was the work of man."
Moreover, if Mohammed invented the Quran, would he threaten himself if he inclines to the idolaters a little bit even, he will be punished double punishment in this life and in the afterlife?
This is in the Quran 17: 74-75
وَلَوْلاَ أَن ثَبَّتْنَاكَ لَقَدْ كِدتَّ تَرْكَنُ إِلَيْهِمْ شَيْئًا قَلِيلاً . إِذاً لَّأَذَقْنَاكَ ضِعْفَ الْحَيَاةِ وَضِعْفَ الْمَمَاتِ ثُمَّ لاَ تَجِدُ لَكَ عَلَيْنَا نَصِيرًا
The explanation:
(And had We not confirmed you [Mohammed], surely you were about to incline to them a little bit.
In that case We would have let you taste a double [portion of the punishment] of living and a double [portion of the punishment] of dying; and moreover you would not have had – against Us – any helper.)
man-after-death.t35.com
Man after Death
Moreover, if Mohammed invented the Quran, would he threaten himself if he inclines to the idolaters a little bit even, he will be punished double punishment in this life and in the afterlife?
This is in the Quran 17: 74-75
وَلَوْلاَ أَن ثَبَّتْنَاكَ لَقَدْ كِدتَّ تَرْكَنُ إِلَيْهِمْ شَيْئًا قَلِيلاً . إِذاً لَّأَذَقْنَاكَ ضِعْفَ الْحَيَاةِ وَضِعْفَ الْمَمَاتِ ثُمَّ لاَ تَجِدُ لَكَ عَلَيْنَا نَصِيرًا
The explanation:
(And had We not confirmed you [Mohammed], surely you were about to incline to them a little bit.
In that case We would have let you taste a double [portion of the punishment] of living and a double [portion of the punishment] of dying; and moreover you would not have had – against Us – any helper.)
man-after-death.t35.com
Man after Death
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....and in a closed system (yeah I know...rainfall, evaporation, etc...) like
the British Isles....surrounded by salt water...with a fairly heavily dense
population in relation to its size...wouldn't that significantly increase the
probability is that every glass of water contains at least one molecule
that once passed through someone's colon??? 8O
Maybe through several colons over time??? 8O
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