The steps to belief (or disbelief)

eanassir

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They might believe it but that doesn't mean its true.

The Quran is the true and authentic word of God, and your denial will not make it false.

What's worse is they believe because they desire to believe or out of fear.

And you disbelieve because of what? You have desire to disbelieve, and of course you have no god-fearing!

What a terrible affliction you have.
What a waste of life!

On the contrary, your life is wasted! and you are a loser.

What is the purpose of your life, other than useless purposeless?

What benefit will you obtain from your atheism and disbelief other than may be some indulgence in desires and freedom from some duties?
 

eanassir

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Or maybe they aren't "developing" god at all but merely acknowledging the existence of said being. To me religion, be it Christianity, Islam or Atheism is but a means to an end. If everybody can agree on the destination then the route doesn't really matter as long as it gets people to where they wish to go. That's one of the things I find funny about these spiritual threads. After all the criticisms of eanassir, nobody has come close to refuting anything he/she has said....nor will they ever (in all probability).



Preparing for the journey


If anyone has decided to make a journey for tourism or some other purpose; won't he prepare many things for his journey? … his bag, towel, some shirts, some food, money …etc.

So the religion of God is not any invention; no, but man has to prepare himself for his coming journey, and where he will go. The wise man will prepare and be ready for this destination: when man will leave his material body, as the sword leaves its sheath or scabbard. And will live forever with his ethereal soul which is the true man.

The disbeliever denies and says there will be nothing there following the death; but what makes him sure and certain of this? And if the things turn to be true (and it is true in fact); then what will his fate be? What excuse will he give? Why didn't this student prepare for his examination? Then when he will fail, he will start crying; but this will be useless.

There are many parables of Jesus about this subject.

This is in the Quran 59: 18

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَلْتَنظُرْ نَفْسٌ مَّا قَدَّمَتْ لِغَدٍ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ خَبِيرٌ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ

The explanation:
(O believers, ward off God ['s disobedience];
let every soul consider what [good work] it has forwarded for tomorrow [following death.]
And ward off [the disobedience of the messenger of] God;
[for] God is Most Aware of [all] that you do.)

man-after-death.t35.com/3.htm#Instructions
 
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Scott Free

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The Quran is the true and authentic word of God, and your denial will not make it false.

But you can't prove it so that's just your opinion.


And you disbelieve because of what? You have desire to disbelieve, and of course you have no god-fearing!

I disbelieve because no one can prove it is true, and in fact, there is much more evidence that it is not true (like the bat sh*t crazy science you're always quoting from the Quran.)

What benefit will you obtain from your atheism and disbelief other than may be some indulgence in desires and freedom from some duties?

I won't waste my life following a crazy paedophile (Muhammad) for one thing.

I don't have to feel guilty about pleasure.

I can eat whatever I like.

I don't have to pray.

Etc... the list goes on...
 

L Gilbert

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Or maybe they aren't "developing" god at all but merely acknowledging the existence of said being.
Perhaps, but the probability of such beings existing is about 1 ÷ infinity squared.
To me religion, be it Christianity, Islam or Atheism is but a means to an end.
Life itself is a means to an end. Why clutter it up with worrying about what's at the end of it?
If everybody can agree on the destination then the route doesn't really matter as long as it gets people to where they wish to go.
What is the destination? Some people think there are various different versions of each of heaven, hell, and in between while others think the destination is 6' under or an urn.
That's one of the things I find funny about these spiritual threads. After all the criticisms of eanassir, nobody has come close to refuting anything he/she has said....nor will they ever (in all probability).
I think you are wrong there. He has stated several times things that could not possibly be, and Dex has refuted them. So have I and a few others. At any rate, the nnumber of times people refute what he spews is dwindling because no-one is taking him very seriously anymore.
 

L Gilbert

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The Quran is the true and authentic word of God, and your denial will not make it false.
Prove it without using it as testimony for itself.



And you disbelieve because of what? You have desire to disbelieve, and of course you have no god-fearing!
I disbelieve because I have not seen ANY evidence of deities' existences. Why should I fear things that don't exist? If there are loving gods then why would anyone need to fear them?



On the contrary, your life is wasted! and you are a loser.
That's merely your opinion. I have about the same opinion of you. So what?

What is the purpose of your life, other than useless purposeless?
The purpose of MY life is to enjoy it. I suppose other people have different purposes for theirs.

What benefit will you obtain from your atheism and disbelief other than may be some indulgence in desires and freedom from some duties?
I think the biggest benefit is not having to waste a vast amount of our lives on the speculation of what comes after death.
 

L Gilbert

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Preparing for the journey





If anyone has decided to make a journey for tourism or some other purpose; won't he prepare many things for his journey? … his bag, towel, some shirts, some food, money …etc.


So the religion of God is not any invention; no, but man has to prepare himself for his coming journey, and where he will go. The wise man will prepare and be ready for this destination: when man will leave his material body, as the sword leaves its sheath or scabbard. And will live forever with his ethereal soul which is the true man.
What if there is nowhere to go after? Then you will have wasted a lifetime of preparation.



The disbeliever denies and says there will be nothing there following the death; but what makes him sure and certain of this?
The absence of evidence, the ability to reason, and the calculation of probabilities.
And if the things turn to be true (and it is true in fact);
Again, you claim facts that cannot be proven.
then what will his fate be?
If such nonsense is true, then it would make sense that if a person was a good person then they would be rewarded for that in spite of whether they believed in gods n faeries or not.
What excuse will he give?
You can't seem to get it through your thick head, can you? Of course the excuse would be that there was insufficient evidence.
Why didn't this student prepare for his examination?
What's the exam about?
Then when he will fail, he will start crying; but this will be useless.
It is not a certainty that the students will fail just because they haven't prepared for this exam. My gosh you make an awful lot of ASS umptions.



There are many parables of Jesus about this subject.
Who cares?
 

L Gilbert

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Even George Carlin has refuted nothing.
Nuts. Refuting by disbelievers is as valid as the refuting from the believers. In FACT, there is more evidence pointing to the nonexistence of these beings than there is evidence substantiating them. For instance, there are a few items of speculation as the the date of creation link, but there is an overwhelming bundle of evidence stuff existed looooooooong before these dates.
 

Cannuck

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Perhaps, but the probability of such beings existing is about 1 ÷ infinity squared.


Probability has nothing to do with it.

Life itself is a means to an end. Why clutter it up with worrying about what's at the end of it?

One man's clutter is another man's treasure. Why indeed. Why does an artist paint? Why does a gardener plant flowers?

What is the destination?

For most people it is being right. That is why the destination is different for each person. For most people, "right" is where they are now. If the destination was instead to live in peace and harmony with each other then any action that was not leading one to peace and harmony with their neighbours would not be taken.

I think you are wrong there.

I'm not surprised

He has stated several times things that could not possibly be, and Dex has refuted them. So have I and a few others.

You only believe that they have been refuted and they could not possibly be true. Believing so doesn't make it so. That is the same type of thing you would say to eanassir btw.

I don't agree with eanassir because I believe his god is weak. God, he she exists in the context of eanassirs beliefs would not need us to worship her. If God is an all-knowing all-seeing omnipotent being with infinite and everlasting power, she would not need anything from me as there is nothing she would or could need. Only a weak king with an inferiority compex would need to be worshipped. Simply put, I would never assign human traits to the almighty. That would be lowering her status.

Of course, that doesn't refute eanissirs beliefs.
 

L Gilbert

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Probability has nothing to do with it.
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That's only your opinion. Mine's different. So?

One man's clutter is another man's treasure. Why indeed. Why does an artist paint? Why does a gardener plant flowers?
Out of fear that they'll be punished if they don't do those things? I think not.



For most people it is being right. That is why the destination is different for each person. For most people, "right" is where they are now. If the destination was instead to live in peace and harmony with each other then any action that was not leading one to peace and harmony with their neighbours would not be taken.
Unfortunately, life isn't like that. Christians think they have the one and only god, same with Muslims, a few other religions think the previous ones are nuts and there are MANY gods, etc. and they fight amongst themselves because of these speculations. It is foolish.

I'm not surprised

You only believe that they have been refuted and they could not possibly be true. Believing so doesn't make it so. That is the same type of thing you would say to eanassir btw.
it is not that I believe eannasir has been refuted several times about several things, I KNOW he has. You have no argument and your assertion that he has not been refuted is wrong.

I don't agree with eanassir because I believe his god is weak. God, he she exists in the context of eanassirs beliefs would not need us to worship her. If God is an all-knowing all-seeing omnipotent being with infinite and everlasting power, she would not need anything from me as there is nothing she would or could need. Only a weak king with an inferiority compex would need to be worshipped. Simply put, I would never assign human traits to the almighty. That would be lowering her status.
Good point, assuming that the existence of said creature were fact. Besides that Dex (among others) has mentioned that if there is indeeed such a creature, it is not one of love and compassion.

Of course, that doesn't refute eanissirs beliefs.
No, but I don't think your refuting eannasir was an issue.
 

eanassir

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That may or may not be true and besides, many believers can't agree on what follows the death.


Yes, but there are some indications to what is after death:

First:
We see all the material beings: plant, animal and man; all of them live for some limited age then perish and become dust – to this no one may disagree.
Other newly born members will come to this Worldly life to live instead of the past generations, then these also will die and will be succeeded by their offspring – to this also no one may disagree.

This process even includes the inanimate objects; they too have a certain age after which, they will be destroyed and their material structure will be corrupted.

Then what's all this process taking place systematically? What for?

There is something there after death, to which all this process is going on as such: there is the afterlife world of souls and spirits: the spiritual world to which there have been many evidences; and many instances when some have crossed to that world and returned to describe something about it.

Second:
If we observe some desolate land: where no plant is there in such area (and consequently no animal); then after the rain falls down, the vegetation starts to grow on this desert, then animals come to graze and other animals come to eat some of these animals, and man comes to take advantage of all this – to this no one may disagree.

So what has caused all this life to appear? It is the rain that fell down on that desolate district.

Therefore, what causes the material objects to become viable and alive? Other than the ethereal spirits and souls? Because the land was dead and was revived by the rain, then how have the living organisms become alive; there must be some factor that cause them alive, then die when this factor departs, just like the water to the dead land?

This is in the Quran
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِن كُنتُمْ فِي رَيْبٍ مِّنَ الْبَعْثِ فَإِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ ثُمَّ مِنْ عَلَقَةٍ ثُمَّ مِن مُّضْغَةٍ مُّخَلَّقَةٍ وَغَيْرِ مُخَلَّقَةٍ لِّنُبَيِّنَ لَكُمْ وَنُقِرُّ فِي الْأَرْحَامِ مَا نَشَاء إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى ثُمَّ نُخْرِجُكُمْ طِفْلًا ثُمَّ لِتَبْلُغُوا أَشُدَّكُمْ وَمِنكُم مَّن يُتَوَفَّى وَمِنكُم مَّن يُرَدُّ إِلَى أَرْذَلِ الْعُمُرِ لِكَيْلَا يَعْلَمَ مِن بَعْدِ عِلْمٍ شَيْئًا وَتَرَى الْأَرْضَ هَامِدَةً فَإِذَا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْهَا الْمَاء اهْتَزَّتْ وَرَبَتْ وَأَنبَتَتْ مِن كُلِّ زَوْجٍ بَهِيجٍ ..الخ
The explanation:
(If you [people] are in doubt about the sending forth [of souls to the 'gathering together' in the Hereafter], then [know that]

>>We created you from soil,
then from scanty fluid [: semen],
then from clot,
then from a 'morsel of flesh': completely created and incompletely created,
and We keep in the wombs whatever We want to an appointed time [of birth],
then We take you out [of your mothers' wombs] as child [after another],
then that you may attain your [age of] full strength,
and some of you are called to die, and some may be let to attain his lowliest elderly that he may not – following his knowledge – know anything.

>>You even may see the land desolate but when We send the water down on it, it quivers [with the plant], and swells and grows every pleasant kind [of plant.]


That is because God – He is the Truth, and brings the dead to life, and is powerful over everything.


And that the Hour [of death] is coming without any doubt; and that God will send forth [to Judgment] those who are in graves.)

man-after-death.t35.com/1.htm#The_Congregation_[or_Assembly_or_Gathering-Together]_
 

Dexter Sinister

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What about the Norse gods?
Dead, by any reasonable measure. As are the old Greek, Roman, Babylonian, Assyrian, etc. gods. In fact all the gods humanity's ever talked about but one, are clearly dead. Any modern Jew, Christian, or Muslim, would argue that those were all false gods, they've got the lock on the one real one. But realistically, there's no argument that can be made in favour of his existence that doesn't equally well apply to all the dead ones. From which I conclude that it's all BS, they're human inventions, myths that have very little to do with reality except in the form of archetypal stories about the human condition. They have a certain didactic and pedagogic value, but they can't be taken as literally true. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no demons, no supernatural beings of any sort, from omnipotent gods to tooth fairies. It's all mythology. It's not without purpose or meaning, but it's not literally true either, it's metaphorical.
 

Cliffy

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The gods are all dead, perhaps, because we stopped believing in them. Jehovah will die too when we have no more use for him. But Mamma Earth, she is eternal or until we destroy her.

Just saw The Day the Earth Stood Still this evening. I think they were over optimistic that humanity can change. The steps being taken today are but a drop in the ocean compared to the changes needed to save our life support system. Of course there is a faint hope, but what is hope but farting in the wind.

We could use the old Greek, Norse and Roman Heros to kick some serious human butt.