NDP wants names of Tories involved in taping of private caucus meeting

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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Getting back sort of on track: Praxius more or less said that Quebecers or perhaps better the Bloc are not traitors for wanting to separate from Canada. That is largely perception.

Fair enough.

To the Yankees Paul Revere was a hero, to the British he was a traitor. However the Bloc has stated that it must be the whole of Quebec that leaves. The natives who make up the majority of the population in the Northern part would rather stay within Canada but the Bloc said that cannot be. Therefore the Bloc only speaks for a small part of Quebec. If I could recall where I read this I would include it but it was a few years ago.

Which to me also sounds like the Bloc are really no threat, since the Natives live in Quebec, they are fully allowed to vote like any other canadian citizen within quebec in regards to seperation..... and if the majority of them don't want to seperate and let's say only half of the rest of quebec want to seperate, then there's no chance of it ever happening, unless the pull some stunt by force and against the democracy.

If that happens, then they're even more screwed..... so there's no real threat of seperation at this point in time, even if the Coalition went forward.

Back to the NDP's inability to figure out who their own MP's are. Until we know EXACTLY how the invite was worded and responded to the legality of it is mere speculation. It is not likely that an Email got delivered to the wrong address like snail mail. The one fact is that their security is lax and in business anyone that got an invite to a competitors meeting by accident would certainly take advantage of it.

I suppose only time will tell.
 

Ron in Regina

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Which to me also sounds like the Bloc are really no threat, since the Natives live in Quebec, they are fully allowed to vote like any other canadian citizen within quebec in regards to seperation..... and if the majority of them don't want to seperate and let's say only half of the rest of quebec want to seperate, then there's no chance of it ever happening, unless the pull some stunt by force and against the democracy.


Prax, if that's really the case, then why on Earth:
1) Does the Bloc even exist with a separation mandate?
2) Do so many in Quebec vote for this separation party?
3) Does the rest of Canada shell out $$$ like drunken sailors to continually rent Quebecs loyalty?

I don't doubt what you're saying, but just looking for clarification. I'm most interested in the answer
to question #3, but the first two questions (I'm assuming) will tie into that answer...
 
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Cannuck

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You or I have no clue what the majority of Canadians oppose or agree apon, as there has been no real solid study or an opportunity yet to determine one way or another what people agree apon or not.

Your unwillingness to accept the reality does not alter the reality

Canadians prefer compromise to coalition: Poll

Support for Tories up amid House crisis, CBC-EKOS poll suggests

"Twenty-eight per cent said they wanted a Liberal-NDP coalition"

28%???? That isn't even equal all those that voted for the three stooges in the last election.
 
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pegger

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Dec 4, 2008
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Since the majority of Canadians oppose the coalition trying to grab power, it can be said that Canadians and the members of the coalition "oppose the interests" of each other. Logically then, the coalition partners and their supporters are enemies of Canada.

So if I disagree with "the majority" - I'm an enemy? I just thought I had a different opinion.
 

pegger

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Cannuck - then there is something deeply flawed in that reasoning and logic.

How do you know that my goals (and my interests) are not the same as yours? I just differ in the path to get there.

If a person who has a difference in opinion is automatically labeled an enemy, then cooperation, and true, meaningful dialogue cannot happen.

However, this does explain the Harper administration's modus operundi (sp?), doesn't it.

BTW - my kids LOVE your avatar.
 

Praxius

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Prax, if that's really the case, then why on Earth:
1) Does the Bloc even exist with a separation mandate?


Because it makes them sound tough in the political arena because they can boast their ability and threat to seperate if they don't get what they want.... unfortunatly it will never work unless they get the people to support this decesion. Which means it'd still have to be democratically decided, not forced. And if it wasn't allowed and this country wasn't a "free country" as they say, then they wouldn't exist in the first place.

And wern't you the one who brought up the western block or something along those lines? Just like that other small Quebec party that got royally screwed in this past election they had..... how do you propose to win out over other rivalling parties without some kind of wild card in your pocket?

Because eventually one party that represents just one province or region will have competition for that spot. What better way to ensure your long lasting ability to remain a political party for a small area of the country then by making it appear that you have more power of the others and that you can give that power to the people if they so choose.

Right now they choose not to. But keep making them out to be the bad guys and chances are you might see them start to consider their options..... again.

Right now everybody, including Quebec, is concerned with the economic crap going on..... all three parties have common interests in resolving something the Conservatives have avoided for so long now, and who have done nothing to prevent so many jobs from being lost.

Maybe they would be lost anyways, but doing nothing is a great way of making sure it happens.

2) Do so many in Quebec vote for this separation party?


As someone else said earlier, it depends on your perspective....... in the west, people seem to focus more on the seperation aspect as being an evil thing.... while here in the East/Atlantic, generally people understand it as just a method of flexing one's muscle (Just that sometimes it can be a bit annoying)

And honestly, you'd think the majority of people in the East would be more fearful of Quebec seperating, since it'd seperate us from the rest of you..... but most arn't worried, because most know it'll probably never happen in our current lifetime.

You guys need to chill and stop worrying all the time.

3) Does the rest of Canada shell out $$$ like drunken sailors to continually rent Quebecs loyalty?


Every province gets money from the rest of the country from time to time.... just because they're french, doesn't make it any different. How about Ontario's Auto sector? Didn't they just get help with some $$$?

And the Atlantic Fishery needs help from time to time, and I bet eventually, the oil sands will need a little help..... everybody does..... just because some areas of the country go about getting it differently, doesn't make them any less or more evil then the next.

I don't doubt what you're saying, but just looking for clarification. I'm most interested in the answer
to question #3, but the first two questions (I'm assuming) will tie into that answer...

Naw, it seems like I had somewhat different answers for each.

Your unwillingness to accept the reality does not alter the reality

Canadians prefer compromise to coalition: Poll

Support for Tories up amid House crisis, CBC-EKOS poll suggests

"Twenty-eight per cent said they wanted a Liberal-NDP coalition"

28%???? That isn't even equal all those that voted for the three stooges in the last election.


Did I already not just respond with:

..... Then again, much of the reports I have heard in the news about public opinion on the Coalition and were opposed to the idea, also had no idea about how our paticular democracy opperates and assumed it was similar to the US's style of democracy, which it certainly isn't, no matter how much Harper would like to try and make it so.

And when you have so many people ill-informed on how our democracy works, and we have a prime minister who flat-out lies to the public and telling them it's an illegal back-door power grab..... then there's a real big problem.


The links you provided were both from December 4th, 2008.

The Coalition hit the news December 1st, 2008..

Liberals, NDP, Bloc sign deal on proposed coalition

^ Very shortly together and right around the time Harper was spreading his lies about how our democracy works..... which later on many news reports and studies also found that many of these people who oppose the concept of a coalition, simply were never informed of the actual process our government operates under. People have become so used to one method of the government's operation, that they completely forgot about this other process of our government.

Which is why I believe that with this extra time for people to let things sink in (If they allow it in the first place) those polls will be much more different.

In fact, here's an interesting read that I may start into another subject/thread after I am done here:

Do Canadians actually prefer minority rule?
Do Canadians actually prefer minority rule? | rabble.ca

It's an interesting read on the concept of how Canadians seem to not like democracy.

So if I disagree with "the majority" - I'm an enemy? I just thought I had a different opinion.

Same here.

This was what I was referring to about the US mentality.... if you don't agree with the majority, then you're a traitor, unpatriotic and the enemy.

And I thought I'd never see the day that mentality hit our nation.... I guess I was wrong.
 

JLM

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"The difference is that I don't care..... but I sure as fok won't back down from some punk troll like you who couldn't even fathom up a decent name other then three letters and no avatar because you don't have enough education to figure out how to upload one."- Please tell me what does the "user name" or avatar contribute to the debate. My "user name" has a meaning and it's also a means by which I can recognize my posts later. I don't believe deep thinkers would be hung up on such trivia.
 

shadowshiv

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As stated on the previous page, the thread is to remain on topic. There is a lot of good debate mixed in with this useless back-and-forth bickering. Lets keep to the debate, shall we?
 

pegger

Electoral Member
Dec 4, 2008
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This was what I was referring to about the US mentality.... if you don't agree with the majority, then you're a traitor, unpatriotic and the enemy.

And I thought I'd never see the day that mentality hit our nation.... I guess I was wrong.

The funny thing is - what IS the majority? Only 37% voted for Conservatives. 37% is not THE majority (although A majority of Canadians voted for the Conservatives, THE majority of Canadians did not) - does THAT make THEM the enemy of Canada? Same goes for the other parties (with varying %s). There IS no majority...

As for the wire tap - it was immoral, unprofessional and disrespectful. Exactly what I have come to expect from this government.
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
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Cannuck - then there is something deeply flawed in that reasoning and logic.

I agree. I'm not promoting it. I'm just regurgitating what was posted.

How do you know that my goals (and my interests) are not the same as yours? I just differ in the path to get there.

I believe our goals are exactly the same and the only thing that may or may not separate us (I'm not familiar enough with you) is the paths we've chosen.

If a person who has a difference in opinion is automatically labeled an enemy, then cooperation, and true, meaningful dialogue cannot happen.

That is so true and it would help if every single politician got it. I don't think you are "getting" my sarcasm. Personally, I have little respect for any of the main parties and their hard core supporters (for a lack of a better turn). Rather than come up with realistic goals they sit around and attack the paths of others and demonize them for their differences.


However, this does explain the Harper administration's modus operundi (sp?), doesn't it.

...and Layton's...and Duceppe's...and Dion's

BTW - my kids LOVE your avatar.

You'd be amazed at how much it looks like me.
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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The funny thing is - what IS the majority? Only 37% voted for Conservatives. 37% is not THE majority (although A majority of Canadians voted for the Conservatives, THE majority of Canadians did not) - does THAT make THEM the enemy of Canada? Same goes for the other parties (with varying %s). There IS no majority...

As for the wire tap - it was immoral, unprofessional and disrespectful. Exactly what I have come to expect from this government.

Yeah it does seem like a confusing mess overall, but technically everytime in the past governments, different parties joined together in their own coalitions and voted often with one another to get things done. Every single party has done this, they just never stated they were a coalition and requesting to take power.....

Usually it is the "Leading" party (In this case the Conservatives) who forms up the coalition by dealing with certain parties to get their objectives done.

Under PM Jean C. as stated in another thread I started today, used to get the NDP to vote for them most of the time. The thread also goes into the western parties like the Reform and the Conservatives and the dealings together they all did in the past.

And in a nutshell, minority governments will not work unless the "Leading" party get's help from other parties. If they don't do this and act on their own against the other parties, then the other parties have a democratic right to form their own coalitions, submit their own request to the Gov. General to take over operations of the government.

That's how it supposed to work.

With majorities, you don't see this happening, because it doesn't have to. Different rules apply to different situations.