A question for native English-speakers on this forum.

Vereya

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But I think you failed to understand the context of the quote. This understanding was systematically used by the British Council, with government funding, and in collaboration with the Americans as was discussed at the Anglo-American Conference in 1961, especially through USAID, to promote English learning abroad specifically to try to influence other nations for political and economic gain for these nations.

I'd say this is fairly obvious. I mean no offense to anyone, but right now English-speaking culture is being promoted throughout the whole world, as a means of reducing different cultures to one common denominator, so to say. For political and economic gain as well as for other purposes.
 

Risus

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I suppose if the steam engine hadn't been born in England, or the assembly line and standardization in Detriot, the language of industry might have been German....

When I went to university many years ago, German was considered the scientific language.
 

Vereya

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Of course! And we who speak English cheer the crusade on, because, hell, privilege is privilege!

I don't really think so, that's why I said "no offense meant". You are just people, like people in Russia are just people, and people in India, for instance, are just people. You don't make this decision. The ones who've got the power and influence do.

BTW, I love English! And your literature is just superb!
 

Spade

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I don't really think so, that's why I said "no offense meant". You are just people, like people in Russia are just people, and people in India, for instance, are just people. You don't make this decision. The ones who've got the power and influence do.

BTW, I love English! And your literature is just superb!

We, individually, do not make this "decision." But, collectively, we consent. Not consciously, perhaps, but we benefit when we travel and are surprised when we cannot operate totally in English or when locals do not accept our "dollars."
 

Machjo

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We, individually, do not make this "decision." But, collectively, we consent. Not consciously, perhaps, but we benefit when we travel and are surprised when we cannot operate totally in English or when locals do not accept our "dollars."

And don't forget, we vote too. The British Council is funded mostly by the British government, with a boost in 2008. CIDA and USAID are entirely government funded likewise. And all of the governments that fund these institutions are elected by the people. So clearly the people themselves agree by implication with the official policy of these organizations that are funded by their elected governments. THis thus becomes a reflection os Anglo-Saxon values.
 

lone wolf

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English isn't the mother tongue for a large portion of the world. Do you think Tower of Babel communications work better for understanding? Which language do YOU propose to be a standard?
 

Machjo

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Why not look at what other countries are doing? Here's what the Italian Ministry of Public Instruction did starting in 1993 (http://www.internacialingvo.org/public/study.pdf) by simply adding Esperanto as an alternative to English for schools that choose to offer that alternative. Here's a quote from research compiled by the Ministry:

1.2.1. Some pedagogic experiments​
It is interesting to note how many teaching experiments have been conducted over the years and in how
many places. The ones which follow are the most significant.​
Girls' Middle School in Bishop Auckland (GB)​
Years: 1918-1921
Aims: Research on the question if prior study of Esperanto facilitates later study of French and German.
Conclusions:
- the simple and rational grammar of Esperanto constitutes, especially for less gifted children, a bridge
which makes a more manageable passage to the complicated French or German grammars possible; it make
the meaning of the grammatical terms visible;
- it clearly indicates the meaning of the grammatical prefixes and suffixes;
- accustoms children to the idea of relationship between words, the construction of words, and derivations;
Esperanto introduces students to the international lexico.
Reports:
- Dr. Alexandra FISCHER,​
Languages by way of Esperanto.
-
Eksperimento farita en Bishop Auckland (GB) en la jaroj 1918-1921 in "Internacia Pedagogia Revuo", 1931.

Bishop's Elementary School, Auckland (New Zealand)​
Years: 1922-1924
Aims: Compare the ease of acquisition of Esperanto with that of French.
Reports:
- article in​
Enciklopedio de Esperanto, volume I, p.436, on the pedagogic value of Esperanto.

Wellesley College, Department of Psychology (Ohio, USA)​
Year: 1924
Aims: research on the question if the "synthetic" languages can be learned more easily and quickly than
the ethnic languages. Comparison between Esperanto and Danish.
Conclusions: Esperanto students achieved better results compared to those studying Danish, in part
because of Esperanto's internal structure, as well as the interest and enthusiasm aroused by Esperanto in the
student's minds.
Report: Christian RUCKMICK,​
The Wellesley College Danish-Esperanto experiment.

Columbia University, New York (USA)​
Years: 1925-1931
Aims: research on the question, if and to what degree a planned language can be more easily learned than
an ethnic language.
Note: the experiment was organised on order by the IALA (International Auxiliary Language Association) by
Dr. Edward Thorndike, director of the psychology section of the institute for pedagogic research at Columbia
University.
Conclusions:
- it is possible for the average student to understand written and spoken Esperanto in 20 hours better than
he can understand French, German, Italian, or Spanish after 100 hours
- 5 hours of study to learn German give practically no results; 5 hours of Esperanto study are enough to
give a general idea of the grammar of the entire language;
- in general, in a time limit from 10 to 100 hours of study, the results acquired in the study of a synthetic
language are practically from 5 to 15 times better than those obtain after the study of an ethnic language,
according to the difficulty of the latter (Eaton, p. 6-7);
- for native English speaking students, the results of studying Latin, German, or French are better if such
study is preceded by that of a planned language, as preparatory introduction (Eaton, p. 27-30).
Report: Helen S. EATON,​
The Language Learning. Summary.
Public High School in New York

Years: 1934-35
Aims: research the influence of the study of Esperanto for a semester on later study of French and, in
parallel, the native language, English.
Report: Helen S. EATON,​
An Experiment in Language Learning
Provincial Grammar School in Sheffield (GB)

Years: 1947-51
Aims: See if Esperanto is truly a useful introduction to the study of French. Conclusions: In summary, it was
concluded that, among the less intelligent students, those who devoted a year to Esperanto succeeded better
in French after four years, without additional study time for that language in the three years spent studying it.
In any case, among the more intelligent students, the best success in French was among those who began it
immediately.
Those who began with Esperanto achieved a better "passive knowledge" and those who began with
French acquired better "active use."
Reports:
J. H. HALLORAN (lecturer in Pedagogy at the University of Sheffield),​
A four year experiment in Esperanto as
an introduction to French
.
V. C. NIXON,
Lastatempaj eksperimentoj pri Esperanto en lernejoj.

Egerton Park School, Denton (Manchester, GB).​
Years: 1948 and following
Aims: study of less intellectually gifted students to ascertain if prior Esperanto study facilitates French
study.
Conclusions: "A child can learn as much Esperanto in about 6 months as he would French in 3-4 years... if
all children studied Esperanto during the first 6-12 months of a 4-5 year French course, they would gain much
and lose nothing."
Report: Norman UILLIAMS (scholastic director)​
Report on the teaching of Esperanto from 1948 to 1965.
Middle School in Somero (Finland)
Years: 1958-63
Aims: research the study of Esperanto and the question of whether such study is advantageous or
disadvantageous for the study of German.
Note: the experiment took place under the direction of the Minister of Public Instruction.
Conclusions:
- the language knowledge acquired with Esperanto was evidently such as could not be reached (under
similar conditions) with any other foreign language;
- the unchallenged superiority in the ability to use German achieved by the students who had studied
Esperanto was observed;
- the rapid results achieved in Esperanto instruction raised the students' courage and their faith in
themselves;
the capacity to accept new ways in which to express themselves already constitutes a help, at the
subconscious level, in assimilating a new foreign language.
Reports:
J. VILKKI, V. SETÄLÄ,
La eksperimenta instruado de Esperanto en la geknaba mezgrada lernejo de Somero
(Suomio)
; V. SETÄLÄ, Vizito al la eksperimenta lernejo en Somero, Finnlando.

Eötvös Lorand University, Budapest (H)​
.
Years: 1962-63
Aims: Compare, in three middle school classes, the results obtained studying Esperanto with those
obtained by studying Russian, English, and German.
Conclusions:
For the Hungarian children, the coefficients of the result, in terms of preset educational goals, turn out to be
the following: 30% for Russian, 40% for German, 60% for English, and 130% for Esperanto. "Such indications
perfectly confirm the initial observations made by Prof. Barczi: in scholastic language instruction
circumstances, Esperanto is the only foreign language for which educational goals can be met." (Szerdahelyi,
1970, quoted in Lobin, p. 39).
Reports:
István SZERDAHELYI (University lecturer),
La didaktika loko de la internacia lingvo en la sistemo de
lernejaj studobjektoj
; Günter LOBIN, Die Internacia Lingvo als Bildungskybernetisches Sprachmodell, p. 59.
International Pedagogic Experiment
Years 1971-74
Organiser: International Society of Esperanto Teachers (ILEI)
Aims:
- show that, under normal scholastic instruction conditions, Esperanto can be more easily learned than any
other language;
- examine if the study of Esperanto constitutes an enrichment of general linguistic knowledge, useful for a
better knowledge of one's own native language;
- examine if Esperanto, as a neutral and international language, has easily utilisable pedagogic qualities
and consequently facilitates the study of other languages;
- demonstrate that, even during instruction, Esperanto is already applicable in various way to a greater
extent than other foreign languages.
Reports:
Marta KOVÁCS, Internacia Didaktika Eksperimento Kvinlanda; Johano INGUSZ, Instruspertoj en
esperantfakaj klasoj (en Hungario).

Internacia Lingvo als Bildungskybernetisches Sprachmodell​
, p. 59.
International Pedagogic Experiment
Years 1975-77
Organiser: International Society of Esperanto Teachers (ILEI)
Participating: 16 students of both sexes in Belgium, 45 in France, 90 in Greece, 77 in West Germany, and
74 in Holland. A final week united in St. Gérard (Belgium) in 1977: mathematics, geography ("Europe and
Us"), drawing, sport, and music instruction in Esperanto, as well as Esperanto itself.
Aims:
- demonstrate the greater teaching effectiveness and economy of Esperanto instruction when compared to
other foreign languages;
- study the influence of Esperanto on the improved study of the native language;
- conduct research on the possibility of improving reading and spelling capabilities in children, especially
those who present problems in this field;
- form a capacity for language comprehension of such a degree that the children are capable of more easily
learning other foreign languages;
- contribute to a European childhood education and a humanistic internationalism.
Conclusions:
- In the opinion of the non-Esperantist Belgian Inspector General: "Esperanto is the right language as a
basis for those who plan on studying other foreign languages."
- positive progress was made in the evolution towards a complete internationalisation. Further, Esperanto
revealed itself to be an appropriate instrument for common reciprocal comprehension and an excellent vehicle
for other teaching subjects.
Report: Helmut SONNABEND,
Esperanto, lerneja eksperimento.
Instruction of Linguistic Orientation, Paderborn (D)
Years: late '70s - early '80s
Description: This kind of instruction was the object of in-depth study by a group from the Institute of
Pedagogic Cybernetics in Paderborn, under the direction of Dr H. Frank, well known in cybernetic circles.
It is characterised by the introduction to the study of foreign languages, uses children from 8-10 years old
and is based on comparison between languages, using Esperanto as a reference. Since it is perfectly adapted
to children, it turns out to be extremely effective from the pedagogic point of view.
Scientifically measured, the results confirm that such instruction of linguistic orientation:
- considerably increases children's interest in the diversity of European cultures and languages;
- require a small time investment which can be saved during later study of other foreign languages;
- is of help in teaching the native language, geography, and mathematics;
- very quickly creates the possibility of interethnic communication perfect for children, without limiting it to
the territory of a specific privileged language. In such a way it opens the way to better comprehension between
people, without language discrimination.
Source:
Protocols of the annual November meetings in Paderborn "Laborkonferencoj: Interlingvistiko en Scienco kaj
Klerigo" (Working conference: Interlinguistics in Science and Education), which can be obtained from the
Institute of Pedagogic Cybernetics in Paderborn. Also in the works by Frank, Lobin, Geisler, and Meder. (see
bibliography)
An Experiment in an Italian Elementary School
In Italy, where Esperanto receives positive treatment in a 1952 memo from the Minister of Public
Instruction, Segni, there have been various experiments in the use of the
International Language, above all in
the cities of Cesena (Gianfranca Braschi Taddei), Cagliari (Nino Pala) e Genoa. The experiment cited here
took place at the "Rocca" Elementary School in San Salvatore di Cogorno (province of Genoa).
Years: 1983-88
Classes: 9-11 years (study Esperanto)
11-14 years (study French)
Aims:
- rapidly start providing a useful instrument of linguistic communication for immediate use in transnational
reports (correspondence, possible encounters);
- dispose of a simple and regular comparative model for more effective instruction of the native language;
- prepare a practical basis for later study of foreign languages;
- serve to enrich the scholastic programme through a wider use of other subjects.
Conclusions:
- According to the final analysis, the word capacity achieved by the children was remarkably good: they
spontaneously conversed about various topics, their pronunciation was correct, they occasionally ran into
grammatical and lexical errors, but without affecting reciprocal comprehension;
- comparing the results of the same students in Esperanto and French gave indications of the learning
rates for the two languages;
- after having compared the French exercises of those children who had previously studied Esperanto with
those who had not received such preliminary preparation, indications as to the introductory value of the

International​
Language were reached.
Report: Elisabetta FORMAGGIO (Chiavari, Italy),
Lerneja eksperimento pri lernfacileco kaj transfero en la

fremdlingvoinstruado
.
 

Machjo

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The problem with the second-language acquisition policies of Canada's ministries of education is that they are mainly politically motivated rather than research-based like the Italian one. Then we wonder why most Caandians fail to learn their second language.
 

lone wolf

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I wonder how many people complained when the new language of justice and commerce became Latin - what your French, Spanish, Italian and Portugese and large parts of English are based upon - after the Romans marched through
 

Spade

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The word barbarian comes from the sound "bar-bar" the Ancient Greeks used to mock the languages of non Greek speakers they encountered.

Do we English speakers have the same attitude today?

Sign me,
Curious
 

Machjo

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The word barbarian comes from the sound "bar-bar" the Ancient Greeks used to mock the languages of non Greek speakers they encountered.

Do we English speakers have the same attitude today?

Sign me,
Curious

Good question. Though the reference to English as a God-given asset only dates back to 1984, not that ancient.

Another interesting site on the subject might be:

A n g l o s p h e r e
 

Nuggler

kind and gentle
Feb 27, 2006
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Also, as for the question of English being a world language, if StatsCan shows that only about 85% of Canadians know English in spite of its being compulsory as a second language in secondary school at least across Canada, and that this is a self assessment (which past research in Europs indicates gives results about 10% higher than through objective test results), it's possible that the real rate is as low as 75%. So we have from 17% to 85% of Canadians knowing English, and Canada is among the seven most predominantly English-speaking countries in the world. So if the rate of knowledge is this low in Canada, how successful do you think people really are elsewhere? How do we define a world language?

It's fair to say English is more successful than most so far, but it has by no means won the war. As we can see from the Italian report, some countries are fighting back for justice. And as long as that is happening, Anglos can't claim vitory yet.

It's a shame that it's always thought of in military terms of victory.

_____________________________________
85 % is a pretty big number.

Victory is ours...........??:roll:

We're going to France this summer, then Spain, and we're boning up on our French and Spanish right now. No way would I have the nerve to go to a foreign country and demand they speak my language.

Such crap should have died with the Brit. Empire.

Portugal..............Everyone (almost) can speak English.

Soon, ve konker za verld!!!

Sieg Stevo. Sieg Stevo.
 

Machjo

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I also remember an article a few years ago when US soldiers raided a mosque. One woman walked out laughing sarcastically with tears in her eyes saying 'they know how to say "shut up" in Arabic'. I took that as a clear indication that US soldiers in Iraq have little interest in learning the local language while swinging rifle barrels in people's faces at mosques. The only Arabic they learn is how to say 'shut up'.

And you think we're irate when foreigners don't know English? Imagine a foreign occupying force storming into your local church and knowing no English but how to say 'shut up' while waving rifle barrels in your face.
 

Machjo

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_____________________________________
85 % is a pretty big number.

For Canada, yes. But my point was that to claim English is a world language when only about 85% of the population of one of the most predominantly English-speaking countries in the world can speak it is reaching a little, don't you think?

[/quote]Portugal..............Everyone (almost) can speak English.[/quote]

Here's what Ulrich Matthias writes in section 6.4 of his book La Nova Latino por la Eklezio kaj Ekumenismo in 2001:


In 2001 a German teacher named Michael Scherm estimated that only 5 -7% of Germans can express themselves well in English. Similar research in 1989 came up with much the same result. A survey by an advertising agency which invited Europeans to translate sound recordings of three English phrases into their
native languages concluded that "the truly correct understanding of English [in Western Europe] fell well below our most pessimistic expectations" being limited to about 6% of the population.

A more superficial question produces a more positive result. A press release from the European Commission on 20.02 2001 reported the "surprising" information that in a survey of 16,000 Europeans more than half (53%) "know a second language". However, an article published on the same day by the German news agency dpa
indicated a less rosy picture:

Foreign language shortfall
Half the citizens of the EU not competent in a foreign language
Almost half of the citizens of the EU are not competent in a foreign language. At the inauguration of the European Year of Languages in the Swedish city of Lund last Monday, EU Commissioner for Education and Culture Viviane Reding announced that a new survey of 16,000 people in the 15 countries of the EU had found that 47.3% speak only their mother tongue.
In 1996/7 a Commission of the German Federal Ministry for Education, Science, Research and Technology investigated the linguistic competence of tertiary students...
Returning to the previously-mentioned survey of students' linguistic competence we find that: The need to deal with elementary errors in the usual language of communication, English, demonstrates on the other hand how far we still are from the ideal image of the multilingual European. This aim of European education policy, directed towards mastery of "an ever increasing number of the Community languages" can be seen not only to belong to the remote future, but in fact to be unrealistic, when one observes for example the role of English in the headlong evolution of the Internet.
 

Machjo

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So Nuggler, if you're satisfied with just hanging out in the tourist traps, then yes, many Portuguese around you might know English. But leave the tourist traps, walk off the beaten path, and you might find something else.