It is bail out season again

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,426
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Low Earth Orbit
Re: Ontario needs my money to build cars

Ah, you easterners got it made all right !!
They may get money right out of the coffers but in the West we get ours from CPP investments and this cool thing called flow through shares dumping HUGE money and amazing tax credits to Westerners who want to invest in their provinces and thus themselves and future generations. Awesome tax credits are money right off the top of the tax pile.
 

Durry

House Member
May 18, 2010
4,709
286
83
Canada
Re: Ontario needs my money to build cars

Toyota creates employment for Ontarians
na.
Well, this really means my tax money is being used to provide welfare employment for Ontarians.

How do I benefit from this kind of financial stupidity?? How does everybody else who pays taxes outside Ontario benefit from this kind of stupidity??

Is this just another example of a culture of entitlement??
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,426
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Re: Ontario needs my money to build cars

Did they ever mention where the money was coming from? Which fund? Stimulus? EI? CPP? ON Pensions?
 

Durry

House Member
May 18, 2010
4,709
286
83
Canada
Re: Ontario needs my money to build cars

They may get money right out of the coffers but in the West we get ours from CPP investments and this cool thing called flow through shares dumping HUGE money and amazing tax credits to Westerners who want to invest in their provinces and thus themselves and future generations. Awesome tax credits are money right off the top of the tax pile.
But these are investments, it is not a welfare hand out !!!

Did they ever mention where the money was coming from? Which fund? Stimulus? EI? CPP? ON Pensions?

They just called it a loan, yeah, right!!

It's from their welfare hand out fund!!!
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
10,385
129
63
Toronto
Re: Ontario needs my money to build cars

Well, this really means my tax money is being used to provide welfare employment for Ontarians.

How do I benefit from this kind of financial stupidity?? How does everybody else who pays taxes outside Ontario benefit from this kind of stupidity??

Is this just another example of a culture of entitlement??

Did you even read the article you posted? The money is going towards modernizing the plant facilities, that is not "welfare employment"

So what's you opinion on the recent Olympics in Vancouver, Durry? Do you think only western tax dollars went towards that?

You are so detached from reality, it's unreal.
 

Durry

House Member
May 18, 2010
4,709
286
83
Canada
Re: Ontario needs my money to build cars

I guess you don't understand the economics of resource-based industries, or else you'd be busy complaining about your own backyard.

Actually I understand economics very well.
Let me assure you that no western resource based PRIVATE company has ever received a welfare handout from the Feds, particularly one that had a broken business model. That would be just plain stupid.!!

Funny, the guy with his head on another planet is asking me where I went to school. Have you even finished school yet? Your writing level in on par with a grade 10.

It's called a loan, idiot. The provincial government is offering a 71 million dollar grant and the federal government is matching it with a repayable 71 million dollar loan. You being the economics magician you are, you probably realize that rich companies get all sorts of benefits from the government, as in tax breaks, loans etc etc.
gh.
A LOAN, hahaha!!! Some loan!

As I post earlier;

Just imagine, these plants can't get funding from;
- the banks
-private business investment
- not even the Parent Toyota company will put money into these sick broken down pigs

Yeah, a LOAN alright, one that will be forgiven as soon as the noise dies down, or when the plants go broke.

Yeah, I know, only the Feds can give out loans,,, eh !!
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
10,385
129
63
Toronto
Re: Ontario needs my money to build cars

Actually I understand economics very well.
Let me assure you that no western resource based PRIVATE company has ever received a welfare handout from the Feds, particularly one that had a broken business model. That would be just plain stupid.!!

You are telling that not a single resource based company operating in western Canada has ever received a loan from the Canadian government? I think you are full of it.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
210
63
In the bush near Sudbury
Re: Ontario needs my money to build cars

Oh, man oh man, don't you know anything??
I know lots.... You're the one tossing about important-sounding words. How is Toyota a "broken business model"? They've been giving GM a damned good run for their money with better quality and customer service.
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
10,385
129
63
Toronto
Re: Ontario needs my money to build cars

Actually I understand economics very well.
Let me assure you that no western resource based PRIVATE company has ever received a welfare handout from the Feds, particularly one that had a broken business model. That would be just plain stupid.!!


A LOAN, hahaha!!! Some loan!

As I post earlier;

Just imagine, these plants can't get funding from;
- the banks
-private business investment
- not even the Parent Toyota company will put money into these sick broken down pigs

Yeah, a LOAN alright, one that will be forgiven as soon as the noise dies down, or when the plants go broke.

Yeah, I know, only the Feds can give out loans,,, eh !!

You are making all sorts of crap up. Where in the article does it state that Toyota in unable to receive loans from banks? Where in the article does it state that Toyota headquarters will not assist in the finance of the plant upgrade?
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,426
11,472
113
Low Earth Orbit
Re: Ontario needs my money to build cars

Hmmmm didn't Japan recently get smoked by an unreal quake and tsunami? What are the odds of an 8.9 quake in ON? Did Toyota close three plants in Japan for 2 months? Are those plants back up to 100% production?

Soviet bail out good plan for Canuckskis.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,466
138
63
Location, Location
Re: Ontario needs my money to build cars

Actually I understand economics very well.
Let me assure you that no western resource based PRIVATE company has ever received a welfare handout from the Feds, particularly one that had a broken business model. That would be just plain stupid.!!

Are you sure about that? How do you define 'welfare handout'? Special tax rules for non-renewable resources, would that be a handout? Grants for job creations, would that be a welfare handout? R and D tax credits, would that be a handout? Years of sucking off the government tit while tar-sands technology was developed, would that be a welfare handout?
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Re: Ontario needs my money to build cars

What's a matter with you easterners, can't you build cars without having to use my money ???

Like, really, what else do I have to do for you, do you need the westerns to go and show you how to build these fkn cars as well ???

Feds, Ontario offer cash in $545M Toyota upgrade - Business - CBC News

I live in Ottawa, yet I opposed this loan from the word go. Even if it's only a loan, it doesn't change the fact that it was at lower interest than normal, which could have been used to pay off the federal debt at higher interest. So it still cost us money even if it was a loan.

Also, the benefit from the loan is not so regional. I did not buy any car from them after the loan, and so did not benefit from the possible price drop owing to this federal help. Meanwhile, an Albertan buying a car from them would have benefited indirectly from the loan allowing the company to continue producing the cars at taxpayer expense. So it's not a regional thing, as you can see.

In my opinion, all government spending must meet one of three criteria:

1. It's an essential service (e.g. police),
2. It benefits all equally or more or less equally (e.g. universal compulsory education), or
3. It benefits the most vulnerable members of society the most (e.g. drug rehabiliation clinics, or job training for the underpaid).

From what I can see, this loan to the big car companies did not meet any of these criteria:

1. It's not an essential service (i.e. we can live without cars),
2. It does not benefit all equally (those who buy a car from the implicated companies benefit indirectly from this subsidy, whereas those who don't buy a car from them, don't), and
3. It does not benefit the most vulnerable members of our society the most (i.e. anyone who can afford a car, even at a subsidized rate, is far from among the most vulnerable members of our society).

So, on what grounds did we give this loan to car companies, when other organizations meeting one of the three criteria above could have benefited from the loan too?

And if the goal was to create jobs and stimulate the economy, spending within the three spending criteria above would have created just as many jobs and been a more worthwhile investment of taxpayer money to boot.

Last I checked, drug addicts still aren't paying taxes, the uneducated keep paying little to no tax, and neither do the unemployed. Likewise the injured, sick, weak, etc. Had we invested on programmes to help them get back into the job market and earn higher salaries instead, that would have been a far better investment.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Isn't it funny there is no money for any projects on the Canadian scene yet our governments can give
hundreds of millions of dollars to Toyota Canada, which is really a Japanese investment.
Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada Inc. (TM-N83.600.150.18%), backed by the federal and Ontario governments, will unveil plans Tuesday to invest about $500-million to finance productivity and production improvements and green initiatives at the auto maker’s two Ontario assembly plants.
The governments will each invest about $60-million, said sources familiar with an announcement to be made at the company’s plant in Cambridge, Ont., by Gary Goodyear, federal Minister of State for Science and Technology, and John Milloy, Ontario’s Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities.
More related to this story

The government financing represents the first major financial contribution they have made to an auto maker since they spent about $13-billion to help bail out Chrysler LLC and General Motors Corp. during the recession that led to the auto industry crisis in 2008-09.
The Toyota funding is a response to the first of what is expected to be a new round of requests from auto makers seeking financial help to upgrade their Canadian plants as product mandates now held by those plants expire and as the companies seek ways to offset the billions of dollars they are spending to meet new fuel economy regulations.
The projects Toyota is examining include an upgrade to the paint shop at the assembly plant in Cambridge, which assembles the Toyota Corolla compact sedan and the Lexus RX350 luxury crossover utility vehicle, industry sources said.
The projects could lead to increased production in Cambridge and at a nearby plant in Woodstock that puts together the RAV4 crossover, the sources said. A federal government source said that could lead to more jobs at the two plants, which now employ about 6,500 people.
Improving productivity has been identified as one of the key challenges facing Canada’s manufacturing industry, especially as manufacturers deal with the impact of the high value of the Canadian dollar.
The announcement comes as Toyota struggles to get the two Canadian plants back to full production following the March earthquake in Japan, which severely disrupted the operations of parts suppliers there.
The Cambridge facility is the only Toyota plant outside Japan that assembles vehicles for the company’s luxury Lexus franchise.
It is one of the three plants that tied in the annual J.D. Power and Associates annual survey of initial quality. The Cambridge plant shared the platinum award with a Lexus plant in Japan and a Honda Motor Co. Ltd. plant in Greensburg, Ind., which turned out vehicles with the fewest defects and malfunctions.
Much of that dedication to quality comes from strong leadership, the hiring of capable people and the willingness of Canadian workers to be trained, industry sources said.
“The issue is, can you train them enough to offset a Canadian dollar trading at $1.03 (U.S.)?” one source said.


Doesn't this just warm you heart? I am not saying that the government should not step in and help where they can but this is
not the kind of help they should be providing. There are other sectors out there who need help as well and the government is
doing nothing to help.

Agriculture and other programs go without or face cutbacks in budgets yet the foreign car companies can slap a Canada
behind their name and line up for money. 500 million for foreign interests nothing for post secondary education students and
others.
We are shelling out treats more often that kids get once a year for Halloween

There would have been more efficient ways for the government to do this. Let's say the government increased funding to skills training for the unemployed instead, then should Toyota want to upgrade to new technologies it would be easier owing to a more skilled workforce available for hire. And since this money would go to train the unemployed, it would mean that they too would have a cahnce to step into the job market.

By funding the car plant directly, you're simply benefiting the company management and staff themselves while leaving the unemployed behind, thus actively helping to widen the wealth gap in our society.

It's bad enough that the government doesn't try to close the wealth gap. But here we have a government actively promoting a wideing of the gap!
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
:smile:
Isn't it funny there is no money for any projects on the Canadian scene yet our governments can give
hundreds of millions of dollars to Toyota Canada, which is really a Japanese investment.
Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada Inc. (TM-N83.600.150.18%), backed by the federal and Ontario governments, will unveil plans Tuesday to invest about $500-million to finance productivity and production improvements and green initiatives at the auto maker’s two Ontario assembly plants.
The governments will each invest about $60-million, said sources familiar with an announcement to be made at the company’s plant in Cambridge, Ont., by Gary Goodyear, federal Minister of State for Science and Technology, and John Milloy, Ontario’s Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities.
More related to this story

The government financing represents the first major financial contribution they have made to an auto maker since they spent about $13-billion to help bail out Chrysler LLC and General Motors Corp. during the recession that led to the auto industry crisis in 2008-09.
The Toyota funding is a response to the first of what is expected to be a new round of requests from auto makers seeking financial help to upgrade their Canadian plants as product mandates now held by those plants expire and as the companies seek ways to offset the billions of dollars they are spending to meet new fuel economy regulations.
The projects Toyota is examining include an upgrade to the paint shop at the assembly plant in Cambridge, which assembles the Toyota Corolla compact sedan and the Lexus RX350 luxury crossover utility vehicle, industry sources said.
The projects could lead to increased production in Cambridge and at a nearby plant in Woodstock that puts together the RAV4 crossover, the sources said. A federal government source said that could lead to more jobs at the two plants, which now employ about 6,500 people.
Improving productivity has been identified as one of the key challenges facing Canada’s manufacturing industry, especially as manufacturers deal with the impact of the high value of the Canadian dollar.
The announcement comes as Toyota struggles to get the two Canadian plants back to full production following the March earthquake in Japan, which severely disrupted the operations of parts suppliers there.
The Cambridge facility is the only Toyota plant outside Japan that assembles vehicles for the company’s luxury Lexus franchise.
It is one of the three plants that tied in the annual J.D. Power and Associates annual survey of initial quality. The Cambridge plant shared the platinum award with a Lexus plant in Japan and a Honda Motor Co. Ltd. plant in Greensburg, Ind., which turned out vehicles with the fewest defects and malfunctions.
Much of that dedication to quality comes from strong leadership, the hiring of capable people and the willingness of Canadian workers to be trained, industry sources said.
“The issue is, can you train them enough to offset a Canadian dollar trading at $1.03 (U.S.)?” one source said.


Doesn't this just warm you heart? I am not saying that the government should not step in and help where they can but this is
not the kind of help they should be providing. There are other sectors out there who need help as well and the government is
doing nothing to help.

Agriculture and other programs go without or face cutbacks in budgets yet the foreign car companies can slap a Canada
behind their name and line up for money. 500 million for foreign interests nothing for post secondary education students and
others.
We are shelling out treats more often that kids get once a year for Halloween

This is not a simple issue. I really have no inkling of all the ramifications, but there are factories occupying Canadian real estate and paying taxes and building maintenance being provided I presume by Canadians, employing Canadians in the manufacturing, sales and service. I guess the burning question is whether providing the bailout is better/worse than not providing it. :smile:
 

Durry

House Member
May 18, 2010
4,709
286
83
Canada
Re: Ontario needs my money to build cars

I live in Ottawa, yet I opposed this loan from the word go. Even if it's only a loan, it doesn't change the fact that it was at lower interest than normal, which could have been used to pay off the federal debt at higher interest. So it still cost us money even if it was a loan.

Also, the benefit from the loan is not so regional. I did not buy any car from them after the loan, and so did not benefit from the possible price drop owing to this federal help. Meanwhile, an Albertan buying a car from them would have benefited indirectly from the loan allowing the company to continue producing the cars at taxpayer expense. So it's not a regional thing, as you can see.

In my opinion, all government spending must meet one of three criteria:

1. It's an essential service (e.g. police),
2. It benefits all equally or more or less equally (e.g. universal compulsory education), or
3. It benefits the most vulnerable members of society the most (e.g. drug rehabiliation clinics, or job training for the underpaid).

From what I can see, this loan to the big car companies did not meet any of these criteria:

1. It's not an essential service (i.e. we can live without cars),
2. It does not benefit all equally (those who buy a car from the implicated companies benefit indirectly from this subsidy, whereas those who don't buy a car from them, don't), and
3. It does not benefit the most vulnerable members of our society the most (i.e. anyone who can afford a car, even at a subsidized rate, is far from among the most vulnerable members of our society).

So, on what grounds did we give this loan to car companies, when other organizations meeting one of the three criteria above could have benefited from the loan too?

And if the goal was to create jobs and stimulate the economy, spending within the three spending criteria above would have created just as many jobs and been a more worthwhile investment of taxpayer money to boot.

Last I checked, drug addicts still aren't paying taxes, the uneducated keep paying little to no tax, and neither do the unemployed. Likewise the injured, sick, weak, etc. Had we invested on programmes to help them get back into the job market and earn higher salaries instead, that would have been a far better investment.
It was an outright WELFARE cheque, plain and simple.
And only Ontario or Quebec qualify for these welfare handouts!!

Just plain stupid, what else can you say!!
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,426
11,472
113
Low Earth Orbit
Re: Ontario needs my money to build cars

There is no shortage of Stimulus welfare being spent in the west.