captain morgan Ya don't know the full story [B said:
WRONG- Bush clearly stated his philosophy about prisoners of war. So you don't have any opinion of Bush?
I admire Bush for many things, but not everything he does or thinks are necessarily right.
Gutless Canadian Gov. Officials Turn Blind Eye
- Thread starter JBeee
- Start date
WRONG- Bush clearly stated his philosophy about prisoners of war. So you don't have any opinion of Bush?
I admire Bush for many things, but not everything he does or thinks are necessarily right.
Captain,
Let's get one thing straight, there would be no road side bombings nor would Omar have been in Afghanistan had the west not invaded. The war was started by the west, the fighting back by your so called terrorists was a retaliation to being invaded by foreign soldiers. The US maltreatment of their prisoners is notorious and you support that. The only thing I rail against Is US foreign policy which has been interfering with the internal affairs of sovereign nations, assassinating elected officials and supporting despotic dictators for almost 100 years, but you support that.
Let's get one thing straight, there would be no road side bombings nor would Omar have been in Afghanistan had the west not invaded. The war was started by the west, the fighting back by your so called terrorists was a retaliation to being invaded by foreign soldiers. The US maltreatment of their prisoners is notorious and you support that. The only thing I rail against Is US foreign policy which has been interfering with the internal affairs of sovereign nations, assassinating elected officials and supporting despotic dictators for almost 100 years, but you support that.
Bush did not force Khadr to participate in terrorist acts. But if you want to talk about Bush, fine.. His policy to publicize the capture and methods used against those prisoners was a serious mistake. If you want my opinion, Bush, Harper, et al should have removed themselves from the equation and passed any prisoners off to the Afghan gvt.. Chances are that the prisoners would have been severly mistreated in a manner that would make the US' methods appear thin and harmless.
But as we've seen, the opposition parties in Canada were berating Harper because he did just that... The message being, they are in a no win situation.
Fair enough Cliffy. My diatribe was/is not intended to absolve or justify the actions of NATO/USA or Canada in entering Afghanistan. If it were my decision, Canada would never have participated in any of the ongoing conflicts in the Middle East - that includes Israel.
However, as the old expression goes, it takes 2 to tango: Khadr and his family made a career of traveling to multiple nations in pursuing their agenda... I believe that it is fair to also apply your (above) synopsis to the Khadrs.... That includes Omar.
The argument has been made that he was a minor when he was captured/arrested and he qualifys as a child soldier. I've stated my position earlier (I'll spare you my rhetoric) but suffice to say, Khadr was implicit in the bomb making process, was willing to kill for compensation and knew that the consequences (for him) included death (his) and/or killing.
To me that is substantive enough to warrant that Khadr was keenly aware of the goals of his participation and understanding the consequences... In my mind, the aforementioned areas disqualify Khadr from being exempted from facing the full force of the penalties that may be assessed.
What I would like to see is a tape of Cheney and the Pentagon Generals planning the invasion over cocktails and giggling about how much this is going to boost their personal, corporate and national economies. i think the outrage would swing in the opposite direction.
Khadr falls under the classification by almost everyone excepting the Us Govt of a Child Soldier - Agree or disagree?
So an abuse child, turned into a killer all by age 15 and you say fukim all - What a kind hearted soul - No empathy or sympathy or even consideration that he was indoctrinated from birth in all probability- Look them up in the dictionary as they are different traits. You prefer to join the Hangem em high and Hangem often crowd. Or the other crowd if they look guilty - they must be guilty - Hangem as well, better safe than sorry. Never know who the enemy could be ya know.
So what is your position on the Child Soldiers of Africa who have committed untold and unspeakable atrocities - Would that have the same response from you??????
Waiting for an intelligent reply - Hint - I have according to the Tarot card readings a long life ahead, hopefully that provides enough time for a thoughtful and reasoned reply.
Your Pal Always
Goober.
I'll agree that Khadr is a child soldier, the victim of conditioning from childhood by jihadist family members and has been through a long ordeal.
The problem is, now by his own admission, he has committed murder on at least one occasion. Now I'm of the mind that eventually he is going to end up back in Canadian custody but them what do we do with him? With the level of conditioning he has received in his life is it possible to rehabilitate him and how do we go about it? If we can't then there is no way we should be setting him free.
The problem is, now by his own admission, he has committed murder on at least one occasion. Now I'm of the mind that eventually he is going to end up back in Canadian custody but them what do we do with him? With the level of conditioning he has received in his life is it possible to rehabilitate him and how do we go about it? If we can't then there is no way we should be setting him free.
I'm not just sure how much a "confession" by Mr. Khadr means at this point. He is possibly just saying what people want to hear at this stage, knowing that his denial over 8 years wasn't working.
Irrelevant emotional jargon...... Paperboys, Servers and Puppet Masters don't carpet bomb villages, killing dozens of civilians and then turn to the media and claim they had it coming because they were in their villages when they wanted to take out one or two Taliban.
Which is why people like the above are sent to courts to seek justice in the first place, otherwise nothing would be done..... and considering it's not the victims on trial, the above is also irrelevant emotional jargon.
Selfish agendas? Which ones are those, them seeking actual justice?
There is no justice served when someone is thrown into a kangaroo court that's designed to only hand out guilty verdicts.... there is no truth sought, there are no facts proven, thus there is no real justice to victims because the truth never really comes out and all that is served is the desire for revenge..... regardless if that revenge is trusted upon the truly guilty person or an innocent person.... so long as someone suffers that's all that seems to matter.
I understand quite well that victims should have justice served and make sure those who made them into victims are punished accordingly, which would make you think they'd want a Real Court using Real Laws and Real Due Process being used to get to the truth, rather then using a court system that ignores internationally accepted rules and regulations towards justice and law and a system that continually judges their captured as guilty long before they ever step foot in that court.
Oh, so he should have pleaded his innocence should he?
Funny, I thought that's what he's been continually doing for the last friggin 8 years...... clearly it wasn't working and they were just going to stall his case for as long as it took for him to eventually break and confess so he could get the hell out of there, rather then rot there for the rest of his life.
And I know damn well that if you were tossed into the exact same situation at the age of 15 right up until now and you knew you were innocent, yet continually told by everybody around you that you're guilty, you were tortured and threatened with rape and getting attacked by dogs, have your country abandon you and have your country's intelligence agency turn a blind eye and faced more and more years of this continual abuse until you confessed, you would have probably cracked sooner then he did and admitted guilt so you could go home..... so don't stand there and act all high and mighty like you're the omnipotent perfection of mankind for all to adhere to.
Oh and about me blaming the medic for a "murderous and cowardly act?"
Well, considering he was supposed to be the trained soldier, Omar apparently wasn't a "Soldier" and Omar was a 15 year old kid that seemed to get the upper hand on a trained soldier whom was part of a force that started the fight in the first place and attacked them without warning..... and at best, Omar was defending himself after already being wounded, followed by being shot twice in the back by a cowardly US Soldier while he was unarmed..... you tell me who should have been more responsible in this situation.
One would think the "Trained Soldier" who started the fight in the first place would do a little better then get killed by a 15 year old kid, whom by the US's words, wasn't a "Soldier"...... yet at the same time the US claims was a member of a terrorist organization in which they declared war on (War on Terrorism after all)
Wow, way to completely miss the mark with your comparisons. Not everybody brainwashed is tossed into a war zone to kill..... some are brainwashed into religious cults to cut off their balls and commit suicide so they can be teleported to an alien vessel hiding behind a passing comet.
Maybe you should get a little education on what Brainwashing is all about so that you can actually discuss the topic of brainwashing with a little intelligence and understand what point was being made.
You're damn right it's great..... at best, Omar was defending himself after already being wounded..... what the US did after the conflict due to their embarrassment of losing one of their own trained soldiers at the apparent hands of a little kid is exactly where human rights and international laws went out the window.
Hmmmm, toss all the blame on a brainwashed 15 year old kid who was dragged over there by his lunatic father as opposed to tossing the blame on one of the world's leading and more powerful countries in the world whom are supposed to stand for freedom, democracy and all that other crap the UN and every other western nation believes in..... and using their blood lust for vengeance to publicly witch hunt a little kid rather then doing the right thing in the first place....... yeah, I'll blame the US and hold them accountable.
You don't read very well do you?
Here, let me shove it back into your face again so you can take your time, read it slowly and perhaps learn something for once:
"his right to due process and true justice was averted, therefore any final conclusions that come from this mockery of a court system are invalid imo..... even if the court system found him innocent."
I personally don't give a rats ass..... he was a soldier, he voluntarily joined up to serve, he went over there to fight an illegitimate war against people who were not directly responsible for what happened on 9/11 and in the military during a time of war..... there is always the risk of being killed in some way. He knew this, every friggin soldier out there knows this and if he couldn't hack this and if he couldn't accept this fact, maybe he shouldn't have signed up in the first damn place.
You can't join the military, go off to war, start blowing things up and killing people, get shot or killed by the enemy in the middle of combat and then cry foul because that's not what you had in mind.
Frig get a clue.
Right to Life indeed.... what about Omar's Right to Life? At the time he apparently tossed the grenade, he was already wounded and blinded in one eye..... they started the attack, he was seriously injured.... in my books and in the books of just about every other court system out there, that's justifiable action in order to preserve one's own life, especially when one fears that their life is in danger.
AKA: Self Defense.
You might have an argument for his so-called "Right to Life" if he was a civilian, and even if he was a civilian..... where's the protection of one's "Right to Life" for all the countless civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq that were murdered by the US?
Oh that's right, they're Muslims..... they're not the same level of human as the rest of us, I forgot...... and people wonder why there are some out there who don't like us.
Neither, it's because, as I have already explained to you, they created this illegitimate court system that was not only bias, illegal and un-recognized by any other country, it ignored all recognized human rights and protections even the US claimed to uphold..... but it was designed to find those in the court guilty and nothing but guilty.
Because of that, any final ruling by this court, innocent or guilty, would be at fault because true justice was never meant to be sought in the first place.
Sez me, sez the UN and sez many others and many other countries who already go their citizens back years ago after they pleaded guilty in order to go home.
A conviction in an illegitimate court not recognized by any other nation, government or the UN for that matter is no conviction at all...... and an admission of guilt in a farce is no real admission.
The Gitmo courts were never designed for real truth or for real justice, thus why provide a "Real" plea?
Doesn't matter considering US invented rules and laws have been applied to this situation, and in both the US, Canada and the rest of UN Member nations, he's still considered a child, regardless of whatever kind of Monkey show the US can invent..... that's all that matters.
Besides, since when did the US ever give a damn about what people think or consider in Afghanistan?
Considering the documents that were never shown in his case pointing at the contradictions in the US soldier's stories about who was alive at the time of the grenade being tossed, who they actually saw toss the grenade and claimed they killed after the fact, and the fact that much of that information was edited and re-written after the fact to suit the story that it was only Omar left alive to toss the grenade, therefore it must have been he who did it.
Even though based on their obviously modified and contradictory records, not one single soldier involved saw him throw the grenade in the first place.
With the above alone, that's more then enough to warrant reasonable doubt.
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By the way, here's some related news on this case:
Omar Khadr is seen on the third day of his sentence trial at Camp Justice
on Guantanamo Bay on Wednesday in this sketch by courtroom artist
Janet Hamlin.
Khadr’s lawyers aim to discredit psychiatrist
Khadr?s lawyers aim to discredit psychiatrist - Canada - TheChronicleHerald.ca
Well that's the risk you take when you join up in the military...... to expect those you're shooting at and attacking with intent to kill to not somehow try and fight back to defend themselves..... is quite honestly retarded.
"I was in complete despair - I would not get to see my kids again."
Sorry, that just sounds like a pussy response if you ask me.... blubbering like a baby over what could have happened, which never did. He was in a combat operation, which was dangerous (usually combat operations are)..... He's still alive.... quit your wincing.
And how the hell did he manage to sue Omar's dead father who obviously couldn't testify..... and win tens of millions of dollars in the process?
Where's that tens of millions of dollars going to come from? Are they going to make a portal into the afterlife to hunt him down with his 72 virgins and shake all the loose change out of their g-strings? :roll:
This has turned into such a soap opera for the US public it's just ridiculous..... military soldiers sobbing as they recall how they thought they were going to die, but weren't...... US officials standing up in front of the cameras with their chests all puffed out and bragging that justice was served and without a shadow of doubt the person they're holding is guilty.... .psssh....... and an overly-biased Danish psychologists coming along and claiming he's some Uber dangerous lunatic ready to blow himself up the first chance he gets...... as if the Danish aren't known for their bigotry against anything Muslim and then later being chewed apart by the defense over obvious blunders, bias and misinformation on his part..... which no doubtfully will be ignored by the US goons running the show and still consider it all as valid........
...... I guess some countries still need some time to move into the 21st century.
Next up in the courts will be Galileo Galilei for suggesting the Earth revolves around the Sun.
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George Jonas: Khadr’s worthless confession | Full Comment | National Post
This pretty well sums it up.
This pretty well sums it up.
From your above report and others:
“Has anyone forced you to enter into this stipulation?”
Is indeed a stupid question but not for the reasons stated in the above report...... it's a stupid question because yes, after 8 years of dragging this on, continually pressuring him and telling him he's guilty from the get go, before any sort of trial by judge or jury began..... a court system that accepted confessions given while under torture, removal of judges and lawyers who didn't see things the way the court system saw them and delay after delay to drag this out for as long as possible...... the question isn't did "Anyone" force him to enter such a plea, because it was the entire system that forced him.
And if he said yes.... what would have happened then?
Well they'd either ask him who did or to list off all those he felt forced him into this plea, and then delay the entire thing for even longer as they investigated (which they wouldn't)...... or they'd just stop the whole thing right then and there, bottle him back up in solitary for a few more months, then drag him back out and ask him again until he said that nobody forced him to admit guilt.
And if he didn't..... back into solitary he'd go for a few more months..... repeat process until crust is golden brown or filling is of a gooey texture, let cool for 10 minutes and serve.
Hell, if I did the same thing, I myself could get the Pope to confess to being the Devil himself sent by Scientologist to ruin Christmas for the Who's in Whoville.
The point being is that he was forced to confess to guilt and accept all charges, because he wasn't going to ever leave Gitmo until he did.... and the US knew that if they allowed the court process to go all the way through without delay, they wouldn't get a guilty verdict in the end because they never had enough evidence to prove his guilt and many of their own errors and corruption in trying to get a conviction would have been exposed to the world..... so they delayed and delayed until they got what they wanted.
Anybody put into the exact same situation, under the exact same treatment, regardless of the crime you're accused of committing, would end up doing exactly what he did..... I'd almost consider the entire process a form of torture in itself, considering it was designed to force a confession due to extended pressure from mental and physical stress put onto him every single day for 8 years.
Is indeed a stupid question but not for the reasons stated in the above report...... it's a stupid question because yes, after 8 years of dragging this on, continually pressuring him and telling him he's guilty from the get go, before any sort of trial by judge or jury began..... a court system that accepted confessions given while under torture, removal of judges and lawyers who didn't see things the way the court system saw them and delay after delay to drag this out for as long as possible...... the question isn't did "Anyone" force him to enter such a plea, because it was the entire system that forced him.
And if he said yes.... what would have happened then?
Well they'd either ask him who did or to list off all those he felt forced him into this plea, and then delay the entire thing for even longer as they investigated (which they wouldn't)...... or they'd just stop the whole thing right then and there, bottle him back up in solitary for a few more months, then drag him back out and ask him again until he said that nobody forced him to admit guilt.
And if he didn't..... back into solitary he'd go for a few more months..... repeat process until crust is golden brown or filling is of a gooey texture, let cool for 10 minutes and serve.
Hell, if I did the same thing, I myself could get the Pope to confess to being the Devil himself sent by Scientologist to ruin Christmas for the Who's in Whoville.
The point being is that he was forced to confess to guilt and accept all charges, because he wasn't going to ever leave Gitmo until he did.... and the US knew that if they allowed the court process to go all the way through without delay, they wouldn't get a guilty verdict in the end because they never had enough evidence to prove his guilt and many of their own errors and corruption in trying to get a conviction would have been exposed to the world..... so they delayed and delayed until they got what they wanted.
Anybody put into the exact same situation, under the exact same treatment, regardless of the crime you're accused of committing, would end up doing exactly what he did..... I'd almost consider the entire process a form of torture in itself, considering it was designed to force a confession due to extended pressure from mental and physical stress put onto him every single day for 8 years.
The main point being is that the only justified wars are when it's to defend yourself, your family and your land you call home..... if everybody followed what was justified, then nobody would attack or invade another country unless attacked first..... and if nobody was attacking anybody, there'd be no wars.
Unfortunately not everybody seems to grasp that, so we have wars. The problem is, if you're attacked.... go for the idiots responsible. Take out the main people, eye for an eye.... and then be done with it. Don't go invading other countries, replacing their governments and way of life to a puppet government and a way of life most don't understand and continually occupy their land, putting further risk to people who never did anything to warrant what was happening to them. None of them asked to be air striked or shelled in their own homes because someone saw someone carrying an AK.
Newsflash.... Everybody over there carries one, just like everybody in the US carries a gun, the only difference is that they have an actual reason to carry one. Sh*ts blowing up all around them, people are dying everywhere they turn, everybody from every side is threatening them and none of them know when's their last day...
.... Frig, I'd be carrying a damn gun too, wouldn't anybody?
That's like flying in one of our little Gryphon choppers over the woods somewhere in the middle US and seeing a couple of guys in flannel drinking beer and shooting off some targets or chasing away a skunk and then suddenly considering them a Terr'ist.
Yet somehow our Western media and our government seem to be able to make it sound somewhat different and somehow justified in an insane evil-super villain sort of way.
Unfortunately not everybody seems to grasp that, so we have wars. The problem is, if you're attacked.... go for the idiots responsible. Take out the main people, eye for an eye.... and then be done with it. Don't go invading other countries, replacing their governments and way of life to a puppet government and a way of life most don't understand and continually occupy their land, putting further risk to people who never did anything to warrant what was happening to them. None of them asked to be air striked or shelled in their own homes because someone saw someone carrying an AK.
Newsflash.... Everybody over there carries one, just like everybody in the US carries a gun, the only difference is that they have an actual reason to carry one. Sh*ts blowing up all around them, people are dying everywhere they turn, everybody from every side is threatening them and none of them know when's their last day...
.... Frig, I'd be carrying a damn gun too, wouldn't anybody?
That's like flying in one of our little Gryphon choppers over the woods somewhere in the middle US and seeing a couple of guys in flannel drinking beer and shooting off some targets or chasing away a skunk and then suddenly considering them a Terr'ist.
Yet somehow our Western media and our government seem to be able to make it sound somewhat different and somehow justified in an insane evil-super villain sort of way.
Let's assume that killing a couple hundred soldiers would get us out of Afghanistan and Iraq, and stop our tirade into Iran and now Pakistan... well.. in that case I might just celebrate the death of a couple hundred soldiers too.
I think the polite thing to do would be to check with them first to make sure it's alright. Myself I might be slightly miffed to learn someone had made that decision for me. But that's probably just my old fashioned way of thinking......................silly old man!
Try all the demonizing BS the US and its lackey media keep spewing about Iran and the lunatic Prez and fanatical religious right wing government. People are buying that crap without having any first hand knowledge of any of it. When was the last time you were in Iran, Goobs? Why do you believe this propaganda? It comes from the same source as WMDs in Iraq. For all we know, the Yanks are just bombing the crap out of southern Pakistan just for the hell of blowing shyte up.
There is only one threat to world peace at this time and it is the US and its military machine.