Beat this besti4lity thread if you can...

[tracy]

When the symptom is dead children, sometimes it's more important to try to put an end to that, and tackle the cause later.

Countries that have banned pitbulls just see those kind of people turn to Rotties, Shepherds, Dobies, Mastiffs, etc. Unless you ban all dogs, you won't solve the problem of idiots getting big dogs, making them aggressive and seeing them kill things.

Plus, technically there is no such breed as a pit bull.

 

[Zzarchov]

Countries that have banned pitbulls just see those kind of people turn to Rotties, Shepherds, Dobies, Mastiffs, etc. Unless you ban all dogs, you won't solve the problem of idiots getting big dogs, making them aggressive and seeing them kill things.

Plus, technically there is no such breed as a pit bull.

Well if it won't solve anything, lets let people own Jaguars. If its all in the training not the Genetics and these people will own large dangerous animals no matter what laws we pass, lets allow some real nasty animals. This will also make it easier for people who can train the animals lovingly and well to own them.

 

[Unforgiven]

I agree with that, but that isn't the route we take. Instead we go to a breed ban.

Exactly, thats why we restrict the animals to those who can own them. The same thing should be true of pitbulls.

I cannot just find a bear cub and raise it. Its dangerous and requires careful training and handling.

I can't even drive a car without a license, nor own a gun. Why? They are dangerous if you don't know what you are doing, so we require you to prove it before you can own one.

 

[Unforgiven]

Countries that have banned pitbulls just see those kind of people turn to Rotties, Shepherds, Dobies, Mastiffs, etc. Unless you ban all dogs, you won't solve the problem of idiots getting big dogs, making them aggressive and seeing them kill things.

Plus, technically there is no such breed as a pit bull.

Exactly. A new symptom from the same cause. The real crime is that it takes away from making a real law that will protect people from dog attacks and address the means in which people can get their lives back after going through something like that.

 

[Unforgiven]

When the symptom is dead children, sometimes it's more important to try to put an end to that, and tackle the cause later.

There will always be dead children.
I know that sounds terrible but it's the truth. We only list them as the most important thing we have when laying blame or guilting for funding. Truth is, we don't much care about kids and we are all too happy to cut corners and get the cheap stuff when they are concerned.

After reading about a dog attack, I took it into my head that I would teach kinds some ways of avoiding a dog attack. Observations that are aparent in dogs when they are under stress and becoming aggressive. And what you can try once a dog as started attacking you. Avoiding predation triggers. The more educated people are, the less chance they have of becoming a victim. But there is so much more the government could do with law, that would do much more than any breed ban.

If only it was something more than scoring political points with those who don`t know.

 

[karrie]

Exactly. A new symptom from the same cause. The real crime is that it takes away from making a real law that will protect people from dog attacks and address the means in which people can get their lives back after going through something like that.

I know that the SPCA's and the city here are starting to address the issue of large dog owners who are not in control of their dogs. Large dogs running loose, or large dogs being visibly out of control even while on a leash, are subject to higher fines.

 

[karrie]

There will always be dead children.
I know that sounds terrible but it's the truth. We only list them as the most important thing we have when laying blame or guilting for funding. Truth is, we don't much care about kids and we are all too happy to cut corners and get the cheap stuff when they are concerned.

After reading about a dog attack, I took it into my head that I would teach kinds some ways of avoiding a dog attack. Observations that are aparent in dogs when they are under stress and becoming aggressive. And what you can try once a dog as started attacking you. Avoiding predation triggers. The more educated people are, the less chance they have of becoming a victim. But there is so much more the government could do with law, that would do much more than any breed ban.

If only it was something more than scoring political points with those who don`t know.

Bringing about a breed ban, but not enforcing any kind of safety measure with any other breeds, would be like making seatbelt laws, but never bothering to bolt down the seats. I don't know where you live, but there are by-laws here (no breed ban to the best of my knowledge though), which make it possible for the city to deal with problem dogs, hopefully before they kill someone.

 

[tracy]

Well if it won't solve anything, lets let people own Jaguars. If its all in the training not the Genetics and these people will own large dangerous animals no matter what laws we pass, lets allow some real nasty animals. This will also make it easier for people who can train the animals lovingly and well to own them.

No dog breed is the same as a jaguar. It's a silly argument.

 

[Unforgiven]

Bringing about a breed ban, but not enforcing any kind of safety measure with any other breeds, would be like making seatbelt laws, but never bothering to bolt down the seats. I don't know where you live, but there are by-laws here (no breed ban to the best of my knowledge though), which make it possible for the city to deal with problem dogs, hopefully before they kill someone.

I'm in Ontario where they have had a breed specific ban for a couple of years.
Sounds like they are a little more intelligent with the laws where you are. Enforcement is a huge factor. You can make all the laws you want but if they aren't enforced proactively then all you are left with is trying to catch someone after the fact when they know they face a huge penalty and try to avoid prosecution.

Not to mention there are plenty of cross bred dogs that aren't covered under breed specific laws. Plenty run loose, others allowed to become aggressive and then dumped in shelters or worse, just in some dog park to prey on some unsuspecting person passing by.

 

[tracy]

Bringing about a breed ban, but not enforcing any kind of safety measure with any other breeds, would be like making seatbelt laws, but never bothering to bolt down the seats. I don't know where you live, but there are by-laws here (no breed ban to the best of my knowledge though), which make it possible for the city to deal with problem dogs, hopefully before they kill someone.

Which is why many of us think breed bans are stupid. There should be laws in place to deal with any problem dog whether they be labs or rotties or poodles.

IMO, the owner should be held 100% responsible for anything that their dog does. If your dog kills or sodomizes a child because of your negligence, you should go to jail.

 

[Unforgiven]

No dog breed is the same as a jaguar. It's a silly argument.

Domestic cats are sometimes bred with Ocelots to make spotted coats and such I've heard. I also understand that some hybrids as they are called are voraciously territorial like their wild cousins resulting high aggression in cats allowed to roam.

 

[Unforgiven]

Bingo! Just like the idiot lady mentioned in the original post. I'm positive that there is no way the dog managed that without help.

Which is why many of us think breed bans are stupid. There should be laws in place to deal with any problem dog whether they be labs or rotties or poodles.

IMO, the owner should be held 100% responsible for anything that their dog does. If your dog kills or sodomizes a child because of your negligence, you should go to jail.

 

[tracy]

Domestic cats are sometimes bred with Ocelots to make spotted coats and such I've heard. I also understand that some hybrids as they are called are voraciously territorial like their wild cousins resulting high aggression in cats allowed to roam.

I am aware hybrids exist, however all dogs (except hybrids) are dogs. Jaguars are another species entirely. Saying owning a pitbull is the same as owning a jaguar is ridiculous.

It's like saying we can't ban private citizens from owning nuclear weapons unless we ban them from owning hunting rifles. Two completely different things.

 

[Unforgiven]

Agreed.

I am aware hybrids exist, however all dogs (except hybrids) are dogs. Jaguars are another species entirely. Saying owning a pitbull is the same as owning a jaguar is ridiculous.

It's like saying we can't ban private citizens from owning nuclear weapons unless we ban them from owning hunting rifles. Two completely different things.

 

[karrie]

Which is why many of us think breed bans are stupid. There should be laws in place to deal with any problem dog whether they be labs or rotties or poodles.

IMO, the owner should be held 100% responsible for anything that their dog does. If your dog kills or sodomizes a child because of your negligence, you should go to jail.

I agree. But I still support breed specific laws for cities. I think it should be possible to get permits to keep animals which have been subjected to behavior reviews, but I still agree with the need for bans on certain breeds. People can talk all they want about training and how genetics isn't a factor, but I've seen too many well trained dogs attack children.

 

[tracy]

This is a good site with information about pitbull type breeds. If not for the general dislike for the dogs, I would own one right now. I just recognized how hard it would be to rent with one, so I got a small dog. He is by far the most difficult animal I've ever owned. If he were big, I would have had him euthanized.

http://www.pbrc.net/breedinfo.html

From the site:

The American Temperament Test Society provides temperament testing around the country for dog breeds, and gives a passing score for the entire breed based on the percentage of passed over failed within total number of the particular breed tested. As of December 2003, the American Pit Bull Terrier has a current passing rate of 83.9%, and the American Staffordshire Terrier passes at 83.2%. In comparison, The Golden Retriever passing rate is 83.2%.

 

[tracy]

I agree. But I still support breed specific laws for cities. I think it should be possible to get permits to keep animals which have been subjected to behavior reviews, but I still agree with the need for bans on certain breeds. People can talk all they want about training and how genetics isn't a factor, but I've seen too many well trained dogs attack children.

The problem is people don't have any respect for what dogs are. "Oh, our dog would never bite our kids"... That kind of thinking is just dellusional and often produces tragic results. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say something like that. Unfortunately it's the kids and the dogs that pay the price for the parents' lack of common sense.

 

[karrie]

The problem is people don't have any respect for what dogs are. "Oh, our dog would never bite our kids"... That kind of thinking is just dellusional and often produces tragic results. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say something like that. Unfortunately it's the kids and the dogs that pay the price for the parents' lack of common sense.

Short of keeping a dog permanently locked away from kids, it's next to impossible to prevent all dog attacks. The attacks I've seen have always been so fast, that the adults on the scene couldn't react fast enough to stop it before it happened. It's not that they thought their dogs would never possibly conceivably turn nasty. It's not that they were being negligent or not paying attention. But dogs are dogs, and work by a different system of rules than us. And when you own a breed like one of the pitbull varieties, or a rotty, when they snap, it is disastrous.

I think it's a huge misconception that dog attacks never occur under a typical day with a dog. Animal lovers seem to think there's always a reason, when there is so often not.

 

[tracy]

Short of keeping a dog permanently locked away from kids, it's next to impossible to prevent all dog attacks. The attacks I've seen have always been so fast, that the adults on the scene couldn't react fast enough to stop it before it happened. It's not that they thought their dogs would never possibly conceivably turn nasty. It's not that they were being negligent or not paying attention. But dogs are dogs, and work by a different system of rules than us. And when you own a breed like one of the pitbull varieties, or a rotty, when they snap, it is disastrous.

I think it's a huge misconception that dog attacks never occur under a typical day with a dog. Animal lovers seem to think there's always a reason, when there is so often not.

There is almost always a reason a dog attacks unless it is just an unsound animal. And yes, unsound animals are certainly out there.

Like you said, dogs work from a different set of rules than we do. If you know the rules you decrease your chance of a dog bite to almost zero. I agree you can never completely guarantee you won't be bitten, but there is a reason a lot of people can work with "aggressive" dogs without ever sustaining a bite and others get a bite from the sweet innocent family pet. It's because those who work with "aggressive" dogs usually are a lot more careful with them and know the rules of dog behavior. My dad had bully dogs in the back for years (pitbulls, bull terriers, bullmastiffs, mixes of those breeds). Some of them were severely abused, most of them were poorly bred, yet none of those dogs ever bit him or any other human being. That wasn't just luck.

I have seen so many parents let their kids act improperly around dogs. The kids are running, yelling, grabbing at it, pulling on its ears, staring into its eyes, touching its food bowl, trying to take toys from its mouth or worst of all playfighting with their human friends in front of their dog. Children of a certain age are just naturally provocative to dogs. They should not be allowed around them until they are mature enough to respect the rules and dogs should not be allowed around children unless they know the hierarchy. That goes for any dog breed. Sometimes it does mean keeping the dog permanently away from the children. None of my dads dogs went to homes with children under the age of 12. I would have to get rid of my own dog if I had kids or keep him permanently separated from them unless I was in the room. I know that about him. If he ever bites a child, I'd have no one to blame but myself.

 

[Unforgiven]

I agree. But I still support breed specific laws for cities. I think it should be possible to get permits to keep animals which have been subjected to behavior reviews, but I still agree with the need for bans on certain breeds. People can talk all they want about training and how genetics isn't a factor, but I've seen too many well trained dogs attack children.

Sounds like an oxymoron, a well trained dog attacking children. I have to wonder what all the responsible adults were doing while the well trained dog was attacking.

Dogs react and that is natural. I haven't ever seen a healthy dog just up and attack someone without warning. I can't say that it never happens, just that I have never seen it. I can however find fault in all the cases of dog attacks where the dog is a healthy animal.