Beat this besti4lity thread if you can...
- Thread starter thomaska
- Start date
Dogs are dogs are dogs. Little dogs in my experience are typically highstrung inbred little wastes of fur, which are highly prone to bite at ankles, or if you're a small kid, asses. I've even seen a ****zu go at a kid's face once when a game of tug-of-war got out of hand. They're dogs. They're governed by strong instincts, and pack rules we often don't fully understand. But I've never seen a small, highstrung, out of control dog do as much damage on its worst day, as the damage I've seen well trained big dogs bring about unexpectedly when their pack rules are infringed upon.
Oh goodie!
This like other topics is prone to jump to the extremes. Genetics plays no roll what so ever. Genetics means everything and environment has little to do with how the dog behaves. As usual it's a balance of the two.
Aggression is aggression. Responsibility is responsibility.
Most people don't know what a pitbull is let alone what they are bred for or capable of. There is no shortage of stories though and embellishments here and there make for high drama but sadly is taken for truth more often than should be.
A pitbull we bred to be a tough dog with a high tolerance for pain and endurance. Pit fighting was a sport like boxing or Ultimate Fighting, or perhaps a closer approximation would be to cock fighting. Pit fights are still going on in Canada and the US. Underground but widespread and found in most major cities. That they have become a symbol of thug life only makes worse the plight for the animal.
Underneath all the hype and hoopla is still a sensitive animal no different than the pet you have grown to love and hold dear. All dogs share that in common. But like some kids can be lead astray, so to can animals.
When you breed a large, very strong and aggressive animal with others for those traits, they be come stronger in the line. Many problems can arise from line breeding and it takes a responsible and steady hand to keep the problems from ranging out of control. In irresponsible hands, it's a disaster.
Aggression can and is bred into dogs. But that is only part of the equation. A larger part is the knowledge and good sense of the person who's hands a dog falls into. You can take a perfectly nice dog of any breed and turn it into a highly aggressive biter. On the other hand you can take the most aggressive vicious dog and provide an environment void of any opportunity for that to come to grief. That is the possibility not necessarily the natural outcome.
Dogs that were used for pit fighting in the old days would never consider biting a person. It was the norm for the owner of the other dog to wash yours while you washed his before a match to ensure that things were on the up and up. Though experienced handlers, no dog would ever bite or it was removed from the pit. So originally pitbulls were never bred for human aggression.
It's this fear some have of the big bad world about them that drives the uneducated to start messing with something and turning it into a problem. This is what has happened to a great many number of dogs. Pitbulls are ground zero for misinformation, abusive training, out right bad breeding and over blown hysteria.
Dogs don't raise themselves and then keep themselves, people do that to dogs. As it would just be stupid to take a chain saw, show a bunch of 4 year old kids where the throttle is and then leave it running in a room full of the kids, it is with any dog. It's not that the dog is a time bomb, although some are. It's that there is no one there to tell the kids to stop when they are doing something the dog doesn't want them doing. If it's left up to the dog, then they handle things their way. If they have been bred to be strong and aggressive then they will simply do what is within their abilities. That this kills most babies and small children doesn't even enter into their thoughts.
But who didn't know that a dog could be aggressive? Most people get a dog and want something cuddly and fun to have around and most dogs fit that bill. Some people want a tough dog that can stand up to the rigors of a difficult job. While others want something to make them feel better about themselves and see that person with a well trained well bred dog and want that for themselves, but lack the knowledge and ability to bring that about through years of working with the dog. They play rough with the dog and teach it that aggression with people is a fun game. The dog gets big and strong, the person likes that no one will mess with them and their dog, and then the dog gets loose or allowed to be alone with a kid. Then surprise surprise, tragedy and there is a new round of blame the breed.
Most people shouldn't be allowed to handle any animal. Far less still own and handle an animal that can when in the wrong hands cause devastation. For the experienced in handling dogs, it's like listening to someone explaining that they just set the chain saw down for a few moments in the daycare by the matches and gasoline. Just for a moment, and how could it go so wrong?
Some dogs will never ever harm a child or anyone else because the responsible owner will never allow it to come to that. Yeah as a matter of fact you can watch your dog all the time. Yes you can make sure that there is never a possibility that they will get loose and yes it's possible to see that no one can ever get near your pet without your presence. No different than acting in a responsible way with firearms, explosives, vehicles, drugs and alcohol.
The key is responsibility. Most have it but enough don't that it's a problem.
This like other topics is prone to jump to the extremes. Genetics plays no roll what so ever. Genetics means everything and environment has little to do with how the dog behaves. As usual it's a balance of the two.
Aggression is aggression. Responsibility is responsibility.
Most people don't know what a pitbull is let alone what they are bred for or capable of. There is no shortage of stories though and embellishments here and there make for high drama but sadly is taken for truth more often than should be.
A pitbull we bred to be a tough dog with a high tolerance for pain and endurance. Pit fighting was a sport like boxing or Ultimate Fighting, or perhaps a closer approximation would be to cock fighting. Pit fights are still going on in Canada and the US. Underground but widespread and found in most major cities. That they have become a symbol of thug life only makes worse the plight for the animal.
Underneath all the hype and hoopla is still a sensitive animal no different than the pet you have grown to love and hold dear. All dogs share that in common. But like some kids can be lead astray, so to can animals.
When you breed a large, very strong and aggressive animal with others for those traits, they be come stronger in the line. Many problems can arise from line breeding and it takes a responsible and steady hand to keep the problems from ranging out of control. In irresponsible hands, it's a disaster.
Aggression can and is bred into dogs. But that is only part of the equation. A larger part is the knowledge and good sense of the person who's hands a dog falls into. You can take a perfectly nice dog of any breed and turn it into a highly aggressive biter. On the other hand you can take the most aggressive vicious dog and provide an environment void of any opportunity for that to come to grief. That is the possibility not necessarily the natural outcome.
Dogs that were used for pit fighting in the old days would never consider biting a person. It was the norm for the owner of the other dog to wash yours while you washed his before a match to ensure that things were on the up and up. Though experienced handlers, no dog would ever bite or it was removed from the pit. So originally pitbulls were never bred for human aggression.
It's this fear some have of the big bad world about them that drives the uneducated to start messing with something and turning it into a problem. This is what has happened to a great many number of dogs. Pitbulls are ground zero for misinformation, abusive training, out right bad breeding and over blown hysteria.
Dogs don't raise themselves and then keep themselves, people do that to dogs. As it would just be stupid to take a chain saw, show a bunch of 4 year old kids where the throttle is and then leave it running in a room full of the kids, it is with any dog. It's not that the dog is a time bomb, although some are. It's that there is no one there to tell the kids to stop when they are doing something the dog doesn't want them doing. If it's left up to the dog, then they handle things their way. If they have been bred to be strong and aggressive then they will simply do what is within their abilities. That this kills most babies and small children doesn't even enter into their thoughts.
But who didn't know that a dog could be aggressive? Most people get a dog and want something cuddly and fun to have around and most dogs fit that bill. Some people want a tough dog that can stand up to the rigors of a difficult job. While others want something to make them feel better about themselves and see that person with a well trained well bred dog and want that for themselves, but lack the knowledge and ability to bring that about through years of working with the dog. They play rough with the dog and teach it that aggression with people is a fun game. The dog gets big and strong, the person likes that no one will mess with them and their dog, and then the dog gets loose or allowed to be alone with a kid. Then surprise surprise, tragedy and there is a new round of blame the breed.
Most people shouldn't be allowed to handle any animal. Far less still own and handle an animal that can when in the wrong hands cause devastation. For the experienced in handling dogs, it's like listening to someone explaining that they just set the chain saw down for a few moments in the daycare by the matches and gasoline. Just for a moment, and how could it go so wrong?
Some dogs will never ever harm a child or anyone else because the responsible owner will never allow it to come to that. Yeah as a matter of fact you can watch your dog all the time. Yes you can make sure that there is never a possibility that they will get loose and yes it's possible to see that no one can ever get near your pet without your presence. No different than acting in a responsible way with firearms, explosives, vehicles, drugs and alcohol.
The key is responsibility. Most have it but enough don't that it's a problem.
No not at all ...following the thread and your very words i asked a question.
They are banned in Ontario...still see them all over the place and mixed breeds..guess it will take years for the law to actually see some effect..Actually i don't even get the law...How do you ban a breed....dumf admits genetics plays a role.
Some would argue that aggression can be a gene in animals...I don't know about this one.I don't know about pit bulls for the only ones I've known were friendly but the owners always gave caution.....Owners were sort of dickheads ...soo i don't know
My uncle raised Dobermans in the 60 and 70's. He had the best in Eastern Canada.Always blue ribbon winners in every show in Eastern canada including the EX. Whilst dobermans back then enjoyed the same fame as pit bulls today,I knew differently...
When we drove up to his place in the Ottawa valley if the dogs were loose they would be all over the car snarling and barking big time. I knew it was all act and even if we got out of the car, which we didn't LOL, they would not hurt us.He would come out and give a big "HEY quiet" and bang they turned into puppies. They would be all over me when got out the car licking me and like i was in heaven......
He was a friend of this Ottawa rough rider coach, i believe his name was Jack Goudda.The rough riders at the time had a dob for a mascot. they teased the hell out of this thing and it became viscoius...Totally!!!.He was asked to put it down for it was apparently semi insane......The dog's name was Tasha. Definatley not show material,lol.
Anywho he never put the dog down and some time after the fact when Jack visited him he was totally freaked out that the dog was totally tame....
It even knew it's place in the hierachy of the dobermans....This you might find interesting.
His one top bitch had rule of the house. she slept in the living room , wandered round.Ate in the kitchen.
Then in the basement the others slept in cages. then there were still others that slept and lived in the kennel outside with the beagels. At one time he had 65 beagels...He also raised Black and Tans , and German short haired pointers....He was the vice president of the Coon hounds of eastern canada....
Any way i really don't know about pit bulls , i asked in another thread...i wasn't being sarcastic karrie.....whats with the purple...it's been mentioned as the color of choice for sarcasm....I'm afraid i shall use it all up if i get into this.
If Genetics of an animal don't matter or make a dog prone to violence, I guess that genetics then never matter no matter how far you drift.
Surely then I could own a wolverine and it would all be about training if it was aggressive and violent. Or a Jaguar, or a Komodo Dragon.
If genetics don't matter at all in the narrow band (within dog subspecies) then they must not ever matter even when you get into different and completely urnelated species.
Genetics matter when you are dealing with what are by and large different species.
Surely then I could own a wolverine and it would all be about training if it was aggressive and violent. Or a Jaguar, or a Komodo Dragon.
If genetics don't matter at all in the narrow band (within dog subspecies) then they must not ever matter even when you get into different and completely urnelated species.
Genetics matter when you are dealing with what are by and large different species.
From this angle, can one then train this genetic violence out of the animal.
I'm not being sarcastic here...I'm might be playing the devil's advocate here but it's a serious thing....
Some believe pit bulls are genetically violent.
If so then can they be trained.
If there is no genetic violence then it's all enviroment.
Is there a science to this?
Hard scientific fact?
Opinion and having a nice pit bull that never bit anyone is not really science.
The government banned these animals from being bred in ontario...i believe...it sort of sounds inane so i don't even remember if they really passed it for it's so crazy....
See what I mean by polarized?
Because you lack the experience and the knowledge, you can not own anything like a wolverine, Jaguar or Komodo Dragon. But that is not to say no one else could.
For example, all the animals used in movies. One of my favorites was Bart the bear. http://www.vitalground.org/ambassadors/bart_the_bear.html
If in face it's all genetic and no environment, explain this and others like him.
Doc, if he was so involved in dog breeding, then you should realize, he was breeding dogs to specific purpose. Which involves picking and choosing genetics. It involves weeding out undesirable genes, and encouraging ones that bring out a quality the breeders want to see. Pitbulls and rotweillers are both breeds which were subjected to human fiddling, to maximize aggression and power. Other breeds, like border collies, are genetically prone to obsessive compulsive behavior, making them ideal herding dogs. Newfoundlanders are genetically predisposed to being ideal water rescue dogs. Retreivers, pointers, bloodhounds.... with all these highly specialized dogs, constantly showing off the wonders of genetic predisposition, why is it that people find it so hard to believe that aggression can be a predisposition too?
And yeah... sarcasm doesn't come across well in type, so it was decided a while ago that purple was the color of choice.
I've seen shows on it doc, and while I used to agree with you, I've been convinced that it's not a crazy thing to ban their breeding. Think about the way a pitbull looks. It's jaws and neck have been tailored over time to possess a higher crushing power than anyother dog breed. Rottweillers come close. The shorter muzzle, broad jaws, and thick neck give it major power. Add to that the sheer statistics on the matter (which put pitbulls and rotties as responsible for over 2/3 of dog bite deaths), and it's pretty hard to ignore the fact that it's a public problem. A lot of the laws surrounding them are pretty reasonable. If you owned a pitbull before the law passed banning them, then you could keep it, so long as you had a behavioral analysis to show that it wasn't a public hazard. It's buying or breeding new ones that was banned, and frankly, I don't see that as a problem considering the damage I've seen from these animals.
This isn't a breed problem, it's a parenting problem. What kind of a moron leaves a 2 year old alone with a big dog of any kind? People who do that are stupid, stupid, stupid.
BTW, pitbulls score better than poodles and labs in temperament testing overall. They do cause more damage when they bite, but they bite less often than most breeds. Beautiful, sweet natured dogs when handled properly. A woman dumb enough to leave one alone with a 2 year old is obviously too stupid to raise one properly. When you have a young child and a big dog, you are just asking for trouble. I wouldn't leave a 2 year old alone with a lab any sooner than I would a pitbull.
BTW, pitbulls score better than poodles and labs in temperament testing overall. They do cause more damage when they bite, but they bite less often than most breeds. Beautiful, sweet natured dogs when handled properly. A woman dumb enough to leave one alone with a 2 year old is obviously too stupid to raise one properly. When you have a young child and a big dog, you are just asking for trouble. I wouldn't leave a 2 year old alone with a lab any sooner than I would a pitbull.
The only problem with breed banning is it treats the symptom and not the cause. So in the end, you haven't really solved anything at all.
Exactly, thats why we restrict the animals to those who can own them. The same thing should be true of pitbulls.
I cannot just find a bear cub and raise it. Its dangerous and requires careful training and handling.
I can't even drive a car without a license, nor own a gun. Why? They are dangerous if you don't know what you are doing, so we require you to prove it before you can own one.
When the symptom is dead children, sometimes it's more important to try to put an end to that, and tackle the cause later.
Thank you for this post
People always talk about them being bred for violence, but they forget that they were never bred to be violent towards people. Dog agression is a completely different matter.My dog is a dog bred for independence and aggression towards anything that moves quickly or makes loud noises. Fortunately he's about 15lb, so he's easy to control. But, I know he will bite first and ask questions later cause he has already. I would never leave him alone with a child.